NCO Program Launched

[DennisH]

Is this still ten thread about the new/not so new NCO program? Kind of hard to tell with all the but hurt. There are some very good points and ideas here but they are getting diluted by the self importance. Just saying.....

[Eclipse]

We.
Are.
Not.
The.
Military.

[AlphaSigOU]

We.
Are.
Not.
The.
Military.

WANTM! 

[Phil Hirons, Jr.]

Has a post ever reached 1,000? Can the software handle it?
I've seen code where the programmer decided this number might top out at 500 I'll make it number(3)^* just to be sure.

^*(limit 1000 for the non-programmers out there)

[JeffDG]

And if you think a degree is valueless, why do you think they require them??  I propose the military requires degrees of their Officers, ie, leadership, due to some emperical reason they have determined.  What is your theory that they are useless based upon??

That's not what he's saying.  He's saying that nobody here has provided any empirical evidence that they do make people better leaders.

For a long time, to become an officer in the Royal Navy you had to be born into the aristocracy...just because people do something in a particular way doesn't mean there's a good reason for it.

[SARDOC]

FYI, most Volunteer Fire Departments and Police Reserve Programs required degrees to progress into their officer ranks... even as volunteers.

I've been in the Fire Service both Career and Volunteer for over twenty years.  On the Career side, you could be a Battalion Chief with nothing more than a GED anything Higher than Battalion Chief did require a degree.  On the Volunteer side, I've never seen any positive education requirement for any position.  Heck, In some parts of the state, they've changed the course syllabus to not be too challenging and they offer test proctors who will read you the certification test in the event that you "don't read so good".  I've seen volunteer Fire Chief whose only qualification was that they were elected by the members of their company.  About 80% of Fire service throughout the United States is provided by volunteers...I could see a huge impact if there was a positive education requirement.

[sarmed1]

A degree does not make you a better leader.  Being an better leader makes you a better leader.  Honestly (and this is one of my AF butt hurt points)  A degree (or more specifically the work and exposure to the different subject material of the courses incompossing the degree) is part of what makes you a better manager.  Manager and Leader are not the same thing (though commonly intertwined especially, in the USAF) CAP being what it is (or what it has become depending on your perception) would be better served by better managers. 
Sure you can have the same knowedge and abilities as a person with a degree and have nothing more than a GED; however when creating a standard to make it easier to judge people coming in the door, or create some otherwise baseline starting point for assessing the minimal knowledge level its easier to use someones already pre-established criteria than to have to invent your own or otherwise do a detailed assessment on every candidate before they even walk in the door.

There are numerous proffession that do it that way (and there were times that they did not, but have changed for likely the above reason)
Frefighter, police officer, paramedic/EMT and nurse are some that come to mind based on my experience (given not everywhere, but many)
For the record the degree requirements for any of the above proffessions vary greatly from organization to organization.  But I have never found any police or fire department that requires volunteers/reserves to have a college degree to be an officer (Shuman14) some paid depratments yes; and even then on the fire side thats usually only chief officers.  Police Depts: well there are some that require at min an associates just to be a regualr officer....

For those arguing they have had good leaders (specifically military) that have no degree; were those NCO's or Officer's?  (to loop back)  IF NCO's, that is in theory exactly the point expressed in trying to re-establish an effective NCO corps in CAP (at least that's what I gathered out of it)  And I guess the argument then (or has become) if NCO's are the frontline supervisor/leader, what do officers do? If NCO's are doing the bulk of the work and the low level supervising do you need as many officers?  (this comes back to the concept of "slots/billets")  If you dont need as many, than having a more stringent requirement to become one is not as earth ending an idea as it sounds...

Of course despite the 1000's of replies this is still really a mute point.  a-its all conjecture-no program details on either end seem to be forthcoming.  b-I still dont think this was that big of a problem in CAP (lack of NCO corps...) so it still sits as a big solution to only one small problem (NCO's that cant promote) the rest is the proverbial solution looking for a problem.   

As with everything else in this world there is and I imagine there would be in this fantasy scenario, an exception to every rule:  If you really are running things at a field grade officer level (by scope of importantce, number of people, budget level etc) but have no college degree and stand to be "demoted" and no longer eligible to be as "important"  I am sure someone would come up with a waiver process.

mk

[Eclipse]

[RiverAux]

Most volunteer fire departments in my state only make their folks take about 12 hours of training and they're good for the rest of their volunteer firefighter career -- and they only do that to get state money.  Never heard of one requiring a degree to be an officer. 

[AirAux]

So, what you are saying is that the military has no basis for requiring degrees for their officers?   

[Panache]

So, what you are saying is that the military has no basis for requiring degrees for their officers?

No, what we're saying is that the Civil Air Patrol has no basis for requiring degrees for their officers.

[Майор Хаткевич]

So, what you are saying is that the military has no basis for requiring degrees for their officers?

Only history I suppose. field commisions are not common anymore, but that used to happen as well.

[Ned]

I may be wrong on some things, and I will admit it, as always, if called on it.

Major, you seem like a reasonable person, so let's discuss this a bit.

All I know is this. My father did not have a college education, yet he learned quite a bit on his own and became, if not an expert in his particular field, pretty darn close, and did pretty well at AT&T and later at being a police officer. My grandfather did not have a high school education but having grown up on a farm and been a mechanic most of his life he could make a tool if he couldn't find one.

Your father and grandfather sound like wonderful people.  I honestly wish I had known them.

But if you will forgive me, I must point out that your descriptions of them do not indicate that they held leadership positions in their fields.  (They may have, but we can't tell from your description.)

I, on the other hand, have a mostly-completed college education and am no better off for having spent the 5 1/2 years in college, either money-wise or career-wise. The only thing I have to show for it is a rather large vocabulary and nearly $80,000 in student loans.

I can only commend you on sticking to your education.  It took me a little over 6 years to finish my BA, so I understand what it can be like. 

But, again, if you will forgive me, it is perhaps not very surprising that you have not enjoyed the benefits of your degree before you have completed it.  I could imagine a medical student just before graduation saying the very same thing.  The whole point of education -- whether it is a high school diploma, a university degree, or a trade school -- is what happens after you finish your degree, not before.

I hope that you will be able to finish reasonably soon and begin your post-college career, whatever that may be.

When I heard that the AF was requiring a BA or BS to enroll in their distance learning courses, I said fine. I'll top out at Major, because I do not want to nor do I have the time or money to go to RSC or any of the other schools required for promotion to LTC. It is a personal choice.

I completely agree.  All of our service in CAP is the result of admirable personal choices, often made while juggling family, church responsibilities, and careers.  As others have pointed out, ending your CAP service as a SMWOG is just as honorable as finishing as a Major General.  All have donated considerable time and treasure to serve others.  I sincerely thank you for your service to date, and hope you have found it rewarding.

If CAP and the USAF come to some sort of an agreement regarding the necessity of a college degree for becoming an officer, that's fine. Dandy. Great. Won't affect me one bit. I will be happy to trade in the oak leaves for SSGT stripes. I can still do my job and be effective at it.

Again, completely agree.

To your point, having a college degree does not confer on one the ability to lead or command. My stepmother's father was an enlisted man and earned his Captain on the battlefield. No degree, just a willingness to do what needed to be done at the time. And that's the point here. A willingness to do what needs to be done. I know plenty of officers, we all do, who are shining examples of what CAP is, and others who are a shining example of horses' posteriors. Unfortunately, the latter sometimes outweighs the former in the public eye.

As my Army bosses used to tell me, "the needs of the service are the needs of the service, don't think too hard about it." 

I can only admire the courage and ability of anyone who has earned a battlefield commission.  It is indeed a rare honor.

But it does not provide much evidence that both the Army and our AF colleagues "got it wrong" when they insist on a college degree for commissioned officers.  After all, Uncle Sam could save himself a fortune by simply doing away with the service academies and ROTC, and just allow promising enlisted soldiers to complete OCS.  I've little doubt that such a plan has been considered and rejected several times before.

The basic problem with the argument "prove to me that a college degree measurably improves a leader's competence" is that it asserts that education is unrelated to leadership.  If that is so, we have no business requiring a GED for CAP officers.  And I have absolutely no doubt that we will be able to find great leaders who little or no formal education at all.  Sgt. York, Abe Lincoln, etc.

Indeed, I cannot prove that the ability to read and write measurably improves a leaders competence.  Nor can I find a study that correlates age with leadership ability.  Why on earth does CAP require flight officers to be 18 and lieutenants to be at least 21?  Outrageous.

Prove to me that a high-speed 13 year-old high school freshman cannot perform the duties of the assistant personnel officer as well as the 62 year-old CAP captain currently performing them.

Sigh.

(I fully understand that the argument works both ways - if a AA or BA should be required for 2d lieutenant, why not make our organization that much more high speed and require an MA? Or a Ph.d for field grade?)

Rank in CAP is fairly meaningless beyond a level of competence. It doesn't correspond to anything in the military other than the shape of a symbol.

Yes and no.  For instance, you can't be considered for National Commander unless you are an O6 and above.  Normally you cannot serve on the national volunteer staff until you make major. 

But without some sort of "CAP UCMJ," CAP captains (who are not in command) can't order CAP lieutenants to do or not to do things.  We all get that part.

(But in over 20 years of my Army career, I'm having trouble recalling any instance where a superior officer not in my chain of command ever ordered me to do anything either.  Just lucky, I guess.)

And I think we all must acknowledge that CAP is not the armed forces, and cannot simply adopt the AF rules for a host of practical reasons.  We are indeed volunteers.

But it is worth remembering that CAP leaders are responsible for caring and safeguarding well over a hundred million dollars worth of property entrusted to us by the taxpayers.  Our leaders do give orders that send members into dangerous situations when lives are on the line.  And we are entrusted with the care and training of tens of thousands of our nation's most valuable resources -- our cadets.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with setting standards and creating training to make our leaders the best that they can be.

Reasonable minds can and do certainly differ on whether we should require a college education for some or all of our leaders.  As you can see from the last 100 posts, there is no consensus.

At least yet.  The discussion here is part of a larger discussion that CAP should be having about our professional development program.

Thank you again for your service.

Ned Lee

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

I have an A.A.S. with honours (3.735 GPA) and was named to Phi Theta Kappa.  It is thoroughly irrelevant to CAP.

My dad never finished high school but had "street smarts" like no-one I ever knew...not to mention being a brilliant mechanic.

My grandfather never made it past grade school but he was a renowned blacksmith in his area.

My grandmother never made it past grade school but what she knew about farming/animal husbandry probably would have filled several textbooks.

Ergo...I don't think a degree is necessarily relevant to CAP.

In fact, I don't see why it's required for military aircrew (Army WO's aside).  Just having a four-year degree will not make someone more or less skilled in flying.

[AirAux]

My point is that the military thinks a degree makes for better leaders (Officers).  Why wouldn't that policy apply to CAP??  What makes us different in our need for good leaders??

[Eclipse]

We are not the military.

We do not lead people in combat.

Our grade has no inherent or implied authority, nor are decisions of consequence made under duress by officers (per se).

We do not pay our people, in fact literally the reverse.

The skills needed for success in CAP can be taught on the timeline of a normal CC's career, assuming we're following our own guidelines.

Having a degree doesn't make you a better leader, or even a leader, it makes you a formally educated person. Nothing more, in and of itself.

[Flying Pig]

Good grief.... cops and firefighters dont need degrees but CAP members do?  A degree has nothing to do with your leadership potential or your motivation to volunteer. 

[unmlobo]

I have 2 degrees, BA in History (09) and an AAS in Weather Technology (CCAF 13) and am working on my Masters.  Oh and I am a SrA in the Air Force.  I feel that this shows no measure of how much or the quality of a leader I am.  It shows I care about furthering my education and sometime down the road expounding my knowledge upon others.    As for the role of an NCO (I know this is from Big Blue, however the idea can be carried to CAP) according to AFI 36-2618:

2.2.1.
Tactical Expertise Level: This level of leadership is predominantly direct and face-
to-face. It normally applies to Airman Basic through Technical Sergeant. At the tactical expertise level, junior
enlisted Airmen and NCOs perfect their primary occupational skills and develop their knowledge of
Air Force institutional competencies. They are trained, complete Professional Military Education
(PME), earn their 5- and 7-skill levels, and often complete their Community College of the Air Force
(CCAF) degree. They strive to become the best technicians and team members possible. As they
increase in rank, they also begin to train others and serve as first line supervisors and section leaders.
The primary focus at the tactical expertise level is accomplishing the mission as effectively and
efficiently as possible using available personnel and resources. 

NCOs are the trainers/front line leaders and in CAP they should be used as such.  They should be the Subject Matter Experts for their Specialty Track or area such as GT or base operations.  A degree should play no relevance into what position they hold.   
If and when I make Staff Sergeant I am considering trading my railroad track for stripes in CAP.    Just my 2 cents.

[Storm Chaser]

Many members here keep reminding us that CAP is not the real military. That is obviously true and can't be argued. But if we're not the real military and should not be held to the same standards and requirements, then why do we need similar or equivalent officer grade titles and insignias? If the expectation of a Maj or Lt Col in CAP is different from that of the military, then do we really need Majs and Lt Cols wearing similar insignias in CAP? Why not have something different; something that fits our reality and needs and sets us apart from the real military?

[SARDOC]

My point is that the military thinks a degree makes for better leaders (Officers).  Why wouldn't that policy apply to CAP??  What makes us different in our need for good leaders??

Well, actually the Military thinks that a degree makes people more educated and that the military leadership training makes a leader.    I would think that most of the Services think that they make pretty good leaders both with and without a degree.