NCO Program Launched

[Shuman 14]

FYI, most Volunteer Fire Departments and Police Reserve Programs required degrees to progress into their officer ranks... even as volunteers.

In what universe?

You make overly broad statements that are based on your limited experience.

23+ years military experience and 15+ years civilian law enforcement experience... yah I'm limited. 

[Shuman 14]

(I would still consider direct commissioning pilots w/o degrees)

Why?  You break the model day-1 with that, and bring us right back to where we are.

CAP needs to have a culture that allows people to come in off the street and receive all the training and experience they need internally.

Why? the Air Force requires people to "come in off the street" with a degree to be an Officer... the internal training begins AFTER they come in. 

No, you can have a PhD and still enlist in the Air Force. You might get some questions and weird looks from the Recruiters, but you can.

We were/are discussing officer appointments... not enlistments, but we digress.

BTW, do you still get to enlist at E-4 with a degree in the Air Force?

[Shuman 14]

Why? the Air Force requires people to "come in off the street" with a degree to be an Officer... the internal training begins AFTER they come in. 

No they don't.  There are plenty of young adults who go to the service academies yearly without degrees, and shocker they are part of that service.  You really need to validate your information before stating something as fact.

Good point I forgot the Academy, but ROTC, OCS and direct commissions all require education outside of the military to receive the commission.

BTW, what's the percentage of USAF Officer commissioning from the Academy versus the other sources?

You know little of what you speak.  And to your other questions I spent 12 years wearing a badge and beret for the AF and now I currently deploy people and cargo.  And some of the best leaders I have had did not have degrees and could run circles around those who did.  Your attention to detail and blinders are really troublesome.

And what percentage are those great leaders you know versus the entire span of leadership with degrees in then USAF and whatever logistic company you work for now? Pretty small I'd venture to guess.

And that's my point... you're trying to say because you know a few great leaders without degree... that then all CAP leaders can be great leaders without degrees. Statistically that's impossible.

You know what I find most troublesome... your Palestinian-like resistance to change. 

[Eclipse]

23+ years military experience and 15+ years civilian law enforcement experience... yah I'm limited. 

No, "limited" would still allow for some experience and knowledge of the situation.
You have none of any relevance to this discussion.

You know what I find most troublesome... your Palestinian-like resistance to change. 

Yes - outsiders with zero personal involvement or relevent experience trying to make things "better" for
people who didn't ask for the advice or the help.

Interesting analogy.

[abdsp51]

Please show me statistical data that shows having a degree makes you a better leader?  I resist change for the sake of change and no one has yet to provide one solid ounce of proof or data that would show that having a degree makes one a better leader and therefor would make one a better leader in the organization. 

Requiring a degree to advance in this organization would result in an exodus of qualified people to execute the mission.  Guess what all CAP leaders can be great without a degree. 

15+ years in LE I find that highly doubtful considering how quickly you assume and speculate on something with nothing substantial to stand on.  I bet more than a few defense attorney's ripped you apart. 

[PHall]

BTW, do you still get to enlist at E-4 with a degree in the Air Force?

Don't know. That's something to ask a Recruiter since the rules change regularly depending on "the needs of the service".

[lordmonar]

I would like to see a list of volunteer organizations that REQUIRE their members to hold degrees to be members or advance.  Again we are not the military and do not need to align ourselves with the military nor do we need to require degrees for advancement.  Guess what some of the best leaders I have had in my career didn't have degrees at all and were far more productive leaders.

And following  many of these discussion no one has really given a solid reason to change our current structure and development.

The Peace Corps' web site says that 90% of their positions required a BA degree.

Having said that....just as you said...we are not the military.....nor are we any other volunteer organization.....ergo we are all out there on our own.

I agree that we should not require degrees for membership.   But we are now requiring one for our National Commander......and by extension it should be highly, highly desirable for our Wing Commanders and up (as they are the pool that the National Commander is selected from.)

Also a little note on using the USAF and other military models.

The Navy is requiring Associate degrees to be eligible for their CPO ranks.   It is highly encourage for USAF SNCO looking to make E8 an E9 to have the CCAF degree.  USAF officers looking to make major and Lt Col are "highly encouraged" to have their Masters.

We are not the military.....but we are their official auxiliary and we wear their rank and we expect to be taken seriously by our customers and our parent service.

So....maybe....just maybe requiring a degree to progress up the ranks is not a bad thing.  No degree.....it does not mean you can't contribute....but maybe you will never be a wing commander.

As for "data" showing having a degree makes you a better leader?   I don't think that exists.....but I do know that many, many businesses (including the military) think that having a formal education is something that they want in their leaders.   Else they would not run those expensive academies, or have ROTC scholarships, or tuition assistance.  And while most jobs will advertise "a BA or XX years experience" I know that most head hunters will take the degreed candidate over the "work experience" candidate 9 out of 10 times.

So....my bottom line is that this is mostly a mountain out of a mole hill.  The would will not end IF.......IF CAP starts requiring formal education (beyond what we already requires) for officer (or some officer) ranks.

[NCRblues]

23+ years military experience and 15+ years civilian law enforcement experience... yah I'm limited. 

Yes, actually it is a limited experience in terms of CAP.

Time after time you have been asked why CAP needs to require a degree, and time and time again you fall back on the same responses.

You say "because the real military does" - great, they sure do. They also are paying those members, for the vast majority of officers they are paying for the higher education as well. CAP can't do that... ever. Not a valid argument. Next.

You say "a degree makes you a better leader" - really? Prove it. You are spewing the classic PR line that has come about in this nation from the higher education industrial complex that sprouts like crab grass on a bad golf course. Fair disclosure, I bought into that line for years and years, heck I even spent my GI bill plus more for degrees. It's a falsehood.

You have no grasp, depth or understanding of how even the most basic unit in CAP operates. You have years of military experience, that is great, if you ever become a real member that will help you with the cadet side of the house on Tuesday nights.

You have years worth of LE experience, that's great, it may or may not help. Most likely won't because well, we're not an LE agency.

You have experience that (more than likely) the majority of CAP members already have. Become active in a local unit for a couple years, then come back and tell us how to run the organization. 

[Shuman 14]

23+ years military experience and 15+ years civilian law enforcement experience... yah I'm limited. 

No, "limited" would still allow for some experience and knowledge of the situation.
You have none of any relevance to this discussion.

You know what I find most troublesome... your Palestinian-like resistance to change. 

Yes - outsiders with zero personal involvement or relevant experience trying to make things "better" for
people who didn't ask for the advice or the help.

Interesting analogy.

AHHH! The Grand Poobah of the Sunshine Brigade! Good evening Sir... nice to hear from you again. 

Question: CAP at some level reports directly to an USAF Command, correct?

And that USAF Command gets dictate to CAP certain things that effect uniforms, awards, training, etc. without CAP input, correct?

So it's entirely possible for a USAF Officer to be assigned to that command either as the actual commander or part of that command's S or G Staff that has "zero personal involvement or relevant experience", correct?

So you do have "Outsiders" trying to make things "better" for CAP... likely quite a bit. 

We're just having a discussion Eclipse... don't take it sooo personal. 

[Shuman 14]

Please show me statistical data that shows having a degree makes you a better leader?  I resist change for the sake of change and no one has yet to provide one solid ounce of proof or data that would show that having a degree makes one a better leader and therefor would make one a better leader in the organization. 

Requiring a degree to advance in this organization would result in an exodus of qualified people to execute the mission.  Guess what all CAP leaders can be great without a degree. 

15+ years in LE I find that highly doubtful considering how quickly you assume and speculate on something with nothing substantial to stand on.  I bet more than a few defense attorney's ripped you apart.

Never said it makes you a better leader, what I said is requiring a degree for Captain and higher leadership would align you more properly with your equal grade Military counterparts and would meet the educational expectations of the public at large when someone (CAP or otherwise) claims the rank of CPT, MAJ, LTC, COL, BG or MG.

[Shuman 14]

I would like to see a list of volunteer organizations that REQUIRE their members to hold degrees to be members or advance.  Again we are not the military and do not need to align ourselves with the military nor do we need to require degrees for advancement.  Guess what some of the best leaders I have had in my career didn't have degrees at all and were far more productive leaders.

And following  many of these discussion no one has really given a solid reason to change our current structure and development.

The Peace Corps' web site says that 90% of their positions required a BA degree.

Having said that....just as you said...we are not the military.....nor are we any other volunteer organization.....ergo we are all out there on our own.

I agree that we should not require degrees for membership.   But we are now requiring one for our National Commander......and by extension it should be highly, highly desirable for our Wing Commanders and up (as they are the pool that the National Commander is selected from.)

Also a little note on using the USAF and other military models.

The Navy is requiring Associate degrees to be eligible for their CPO ranks.   It is highly encourage for USAF SNCO looking to make E8 an E9 to have the CCAF degree.  USAF officers looking to make major and Lt Col are "highly encouraged" to have their Masters.

We are not the military.....but we are their official auxiliary and we wear their rank and we expect to be taken seriously by our customers and our parent service.

So....maybe....just maybe requiring a degree to progress up the ranks is not a bad thing.  No degree.....it does not mean you can't contribute....but maybe you will never be a wing commander.

As for "data" showing having a degree makes you a better leader?   I don't think that exists.....but I do know that many, many businesses (including the military) think that having a formal education is something that they want in their leaders.   Else they would not run those expensive academies, or have ROTC scholarships, or tuition assistance.  And while most jobs will advertise "a BA or XX years experience" I know that most head hunters will take the degreed candidate over the "work experience" candidate 9 out of 10 times.

So....my bottom line is that this is mostly a mountain out of a mole hill.  The would will not end IF.......IF CAP starts requiring formal education (beyond what we already requires) for officer (or some officer) ranks.

Thank you for an excellent and well thought out response!

Glad to see not everyone on CAPTALK is resistant discussing suggestions of change.

[Shuman 14]

23+ years military experience and 15+ years civilian law enforcement experience... yah I'm limited. 

Yes, actually it is a limited experience in terms of CAP.

Time after time you have been asked why CAP needs to require a degree, and time and time again you fall back on the same responses.

You say "because the real military does" - great, they sure do. They also are paying those members, for the vast majority of officers they are paying for the higher education as well. CAP can't do that... ever. Not a valid argument. Next.

You say "a degree makes you a better leader" - really? Prove it. You are spewing the classic PR line that has come about in this nation from the higher education industrial complex that sprouts like crab grass on a bad golf course. Fair disclosure, I bought into that line for years and years, heck I even spent my GI bill plus more for degrees. It's a falsehood.

You have no grasp, depth or understanding of how even the most basic unit in CAP operates. You have years of military experience, that is great, if you ever become a real member that will help you with the cadet side of the house on Tuesday nights.

You have years worth of LE experience, that's great, it may or may not help. Most likely won't because well, we're not an LE agency.

You have experience that (more than likely) the majority of CAP members already have. Become active in a local unit for a couple years, then come back and tell us how to run the organization.

You wear a pseudo USAF uniform... the uninformed public at large equates CAP to the USAF... therefore they have an educational expectation of what a USAF officer should have... ergo they have an educational expectation of what a CAP officer should have.

I never said a degree makes you better leader, all I'm saying is you would be better as an institution and an organization IF you, as as a whole, meet those public expectations.   

[Panache]

FYI, most Volunteer Fire Departments and Police Reserve Programs required degrees to progress into their officer ranks... even as volunteers.

Wait.  What?

I don't think I've ever seen a volunteer fire department require a degree for their officer ranks.  Advanced firefighting training, yet, but not a college degree.

We are not the military.....but we are their official auxiliary and we wear their rank and we expect to be taken seriously by our customers and our parent service.

If we're going to require CAP officers to hold the same requirement as USAF officers, then they should have the same privileges and pay when they're on duty, much like Reserve officers.  It's only fair, right?  I mean, that's where we're going with this, right?

Never said it makes you a better leader, what I said is requiring a degree for Captain and higher leadership would align you more properly with your equal grade Military counterparts and would meet the educational expectations of the public at large when someone (CAP or otherwise) claims the rank of CPT, MAJ, LTC, COL, BG or MG.

So, I say "If they tell me I can't progress in the officer ranks because I don't have a degree, I'm leaving the organization" and I'm mocked by some because, hey, CAP rank doesn't mean squat.  But then those same people tell me that CAP rank is important enough to restrict it to certain classes that, by total coincidence I'm sure, includes them.  Color me confused.

[NCRblues]

You wear a pseudo USAF uniform... the uninformed public at large equates CAP to the USAF... therefore they have an educational expectation of what a USAF officer should have... ergo they have an educational expectation of what a CAP officer should have.

I never said a degree makes you better leader, all I'm saying is you would be better as an institution and an organization IF you, as as a whole, meet those public expectations.

Oh, you mean the greatly informed and intelligent American public? The ones that cant tell the difference between a soldier, sailor, airman or marine? Those people?

You mean the same people that when you say "I'm actually in the Air Force" (after calling you army guy or GI joe) ask what aircraft you fly?

The American public has no idea what any education requirements are for any part of the military. I mean come on, to the average American every Air Force member flies a fighter jet, every sailor mans a battleship or sub, every marine is a stone cold killer and every army guy shoots big guns...

The American public is soooooo lost about ANY government or military items.

For instance, take a look at the (very funny) obamacare vs ACA videos on YouTube...

[Eclipse]

23+ years military experience and 15+ years civilian law enforcement experience... yah I'm limited. 

No, "limited" would still allow for some experience and knowledge of the situation.
You have none of any relevance to this discussion.

You know what I find most troublesome... your Palestinian-like resistance to change. 

Yes - outsiders with zero personal involvement or relevant experience trying to make things "better" for
people who didn't ask for the advice or the help.

Interesting analogy.

AHHH! The Grand Poobah of the Sunshine Brigade! Good evening Sir... nice to hear from you again. 

Question: CAP at some level reports directly to an USAF Command, correct?

And that USAF Command gets dictate to CAP certain things that effect uniforms, awards, training, etc. without CAP input, correct?

So it's entirely possible for a USAF Officer to be assigned to that command either as the actual commander or part of that command's S or G Staff that has "zero personal involvement or relevant experience", correct?

So you do have "Outsiders" trying to make things "better" for CAP... likely quite a bit. 

We're just having a discussion Eclipse... don't take it sooo personal. 

Actually, no.

[Garibaldi]

All I know is this. My father did not have a college education, yet he learned quite a bit on his own and became, if not an expert in his particular field, pretty darn close, and did pretty well at AT&T and later at being a police officer. My grandfather did not have a high school education but having grown up on a farm and been a mechanic most of his life he could make a tool if he couldn't find one. I, on the other hand, have a mostly-completed college education and am no better off for having spent the 5 1/2 years in college, either money-wise or career-wise. The only thing I have to show for it is a rather large vocabulary and nearly $80,000 in student loans.

When I heard that the AF was requiring a BA or BS to enroll in their distance learning courses, I said fine. I'll top out at Major, because I do not want to nor do I have the time or money to go to RSC or any of the other schools required for promotion to LTC. It is a personal choice.

If CAP and the USAF come to some sort of an agreement regarding the necessity of a college degree for becoming an officer, that's fine. Dandy. Great. Won't affect me one bit. I will be happy to trade in the oak leaves for SSGT stripes. I can still do my job and be effective at it.

To your point, having a college degree does not confer on one the ability to lead or command. My stepmother's father was an enlisted man and earned his Captain on the battlefield. No degree, just a willingness to do what needed to be done at the time. And that's the point here. A willingness to do what needs to be done. I know plenty of officers, we all do, who are shining examples of what CAP is, and others who are a shining example of horses' posteriors. Unfortunately, the latter sometimes outweighs the former in the public eye.

Rank in CAP is fairly meaningless beyond a level of competence. It doesn't correspond to anything in the military other than the shape of a symbol. Second Lieutenants commanding Lieutenant Colonels at the unit level would never happen in the Air Force. It's just a fact of life that we have a grade structure based ON the military but not based IN military doctrine. We don't go to OCS or a service academy or ROTC to get our butter bars. We wait 6 months, take a few courses and get promoted. If someone happens to have qualifications that permit them a higher grade, then yeah, instant first lieutenant or captain after level one. Twenty-one year old Spaatz award cadets get to be Captain upon turning senior. It doesn't work that way in the military. To compare our way of life to the military structure is just wrong. We aren't held to the same standard because we are civilian volunteers. Yes, we are perceived as one and the same by Joe Public, but that's where we can use that opportunity as a teachable moment.

Just my two cents. I may be wrong on some things, and I will admit it, as always, if called on it.

[ColonelJack]

^  This.  +1000!

Well said, my friend.

Jack

[AirAux]

Much has been argued whether having a degree makes one a better leader.  We are affiliated with the air Force.  I would proffer that the Air Force has determined through some legitimate means that a degree in some way makes a person more likely to be a better leader that a non-degree holder or they wouldn't require same of thheir own.  Make sense?

[abdsp51]

There is one degree the AF in general cares about and thats the CCAF.  Holding a degree does not mean one will be a better leader in any aspect.  The AF requires a BA/BS to be commissioned, just like the rest of the services.  So far no one has offered any data to prove the effectiveness of a degree vs non degree holders when it comes to leadership.

[AirAux]

And if you think a degree is valueless, why do you think they require them??  I propose the military requires degrees of their Officers, ie, leadership, due to some emperical reason they have determined.  What is your theory that they are useless based upon??