Corporate Gray Uniform

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Wow, that just surprises me that 40 senior members would all show up with the polo, if it wasn't somehow suggested as the preferred uniform.   Heck, after 13 years in CAP, I don't even own a polo.

Have you ever been in a senior squadron, Pylon?  I'm not trying to be a smart Alec; I'm just asking.

I transferred (due to a move) from a very squared-away composite squadron to a senior squadron that was probably about 3/4 pilots and had its own airplane.

I showed up at my first meeting in blues, with everything worn as correctly as I could make it, and I was the only one in the room in blues...and one of the only ones in a complete uniform.

Others were in various permutations of:

Flight suits, sometimes without any insignia except leather nameplate
Polo shirts of various kinds (this was about 10 years ago), usually worn with blue jeans
"Civil Air Patrol" tee shirts
Civilian clothes, but with a CAP baseball cap, which they believed covered (no pun intended) the requirement that they be in a CAP uniform when flying

However, the squadron commander usually wore grey/whites and wore them well (former Marine).  I saw him in blues once and he said he was reluctant to do that because "it's an Air Force uniform, and I'm not in the Air Force."

After he left, it was mostly uniforms-optional, and it wasn't because so many were out of H/W or grooming requirements...they just didn't want to wear uniforms.

I was asked at least once why I bothered to wear the blue uniform.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Which includes the grey/white uniform.   All too often I see it worn very slovenly; I suppose many think that because it's not an AF uniform and there aren't really any restrictions on who can wear it that having it squared away isn't a real big concern.

I've seen people that had both, and wore them in the same manner. I don't think it's a case of the type of uniform, I think it's mostly the person in it.

Point taken; in fact, in my first squadron, the then-commander barred one member from wearing the blue uniform because it was always in such shabby condition.  I think he wore the smurf suit from then on.

[Eclipse]

^ Don't these units have Group or Wing CC's monitoring them?

[Fubar]

^ Don't these units have Group or Wing CC's monitoring them?

What if the group or wing commanders themselves aren't properly in uniform?

[CadetProgramGuy]

^ Don't these units have Group or Wing CC's monitoring them?

What if the group or wing commanders themselves aren't properly in uniform?

Then I view it as a failure of Command.

While I do own a set of the Polo shirts, i am not a fan of them being a meeting uniform or a mission flying shirt.

I encourage the polo for routine, run of the mill travel to and from an activity or event, but not as THE uniform for the activity or event.

[Thrashed]

While the instructor may say a UOD, I'd say any CAP uniform is ok.  They can't make you wear one over the other when ALL are approved.

WRONG, WRONG, WRONG, WRONG! 

In my SLS, we had a mixture of everything from civilian cloths to AF blues.  Half of the people in uniform were not wearing it properly.  That's good.  SLS is for learning, and many people learned that weekend. I wish CAP could be more "uniform" when we wear uniforms, but that will never happen.

Then why did you give the "I'd say and CAP uniform is okay"?

They can't make you wear a uniform you don't own and don't have to own.  We have uniform regs for a reason. You can't graduate SLS without the instructors choice of uniform?
I said any uniform is OK because CAP does. I wish we were more uniform, but that is my personal preference.

[DG]

Why do we need uniforms in the first place?

(Serious question, seeking serious answers.)

And if the uniform serves an important purpose, can't we do it without bling and bravado?

My main deal in CAP is in Air Ops.  Many pilots are interested in uniforms only where they are utilitarian.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Why do we need uniforms in the first place?

Uniforms are part of Civil Air Patrol. 
They have been from the beginning. 
We are a volunteer organisation ran along paramilitary lines. 
We are the Auxiliary of the United States Air Force.

(Serious question, seeking serious answers.)

Trying to treat it as such, trying to provide them.

I think your questions show the continuing disconnect between the military-Air Force heritage and corporate-ES sides of CAP.

And if the uniform serves an important purpose, can't we do it without bling and bravado?

It depends on how you define "bling and bravado."

My main deal in CAP is in Air Ops.  Many pilots are interested in uniforms only where they are utilitarian.

No offence intended, and try not to take it this way, but there are a few salient points needing to be made:

Not everyone in CAP is a pilot.
(I am an observer, FWIW)

CAP is not solely a pilot's organisation.

Air Ops is not the only thing that CAP does.

Some CAP members spend their entire CAP career without ever setting foot in an airplane, yet serve with distinction (our National Commander does not hold any aeronautical rating).

Also, my first Squadron CC, later Wing CC, had (last time I saw him) a Senior Pilot rating, several "finds," instructor pilot, multi-engine rated, etc., etc., etc., and he always wore the uniform (blues, BDU's, zoom bag, mess dress) with pride.

[Eclipse]

They can't make you wear a uniform you don't own...

Correct, but "they" can limit your participation in optional activities if you can't present a proper appearance.

...and don't have to own.  We have uniform regs for a reason.

Correct again, however as we point out regularly, all senior members are required to own a basic service uniform, either the blues or the whites, which means that mandating wear is not only allowed by regulation, its completely reasonable.

[lordmonar]

They can't make you wear a uniform you don't own and don't have to own.  We have uniform regs for a reason. You can't graduate SLS without the instructors choice of uniform?
I said any uniform is OK because CAP does. I wish we were more uniform, but that is my personal preference.

Ah....but you do have to own a basic CAP uniform...which is either a short sleeve USAF uniform, a short sleeve CSU or an aviator shirt with gray pants.  It's in the 39-1.

As for requiring other uniforms......we on occassion do require other uniforms....such as at encampment of for ES operations and flight operations.

[Major Carrales]

They can't make you wear a uniform you don't own and don't have to own.  We have uniform regs for a reason. You can't graduate SLS without the instructors choice of uniform?
I said any uniform is OK because CAP does. I wish we were more uniform, but that is my personal preference.

Ah....but you do have to own a basic CAP uniform...which is either a short sleeve USAF uniform, a short sleeve CSU or an aviator shirt with gray pants.  It's in the 39-1.

As for requiring other uniforms......we on occassion do require other uniforms....such as at encampment of for ES operations and flight operations.

The important part is that everyone, upon joining, acquire the minimum basic service uniform first.  Most people tend to get BDUs or Flightsuits first, likely because they are more available in most areas via surplus stores and the like (in fact, my first service uniform was from a Thrift Shop...over the years I built up and replaced out that stuff.)

Thus, it is not unreasonable to ask for minimum basic service dress at classroom type activities.  Since the uniform manual dictates that is the default uniform, that case is made.

The second situation when other uniforms would be needed involve special activities or others where field dress is more appropriate.  You'll look pretty nasty if you wear service dress to Ground Team school after wallowing in the field for a few days (just ask the guys in Brownsville who are there TODAY!!!)  The only justification for that type of dress would be a graduation ceremony...however, the norm is to be graduated in BDUs.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Then I view it as a failure of Command.

Or, in this specific case, the factor that many of the squadron members also held Wing positions.

[Strick]

(our National Commander does not hold any aeronautical rating).
Incorrect
The General is an Observer

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

(our National Commander does not hold any aeronautical rating).
Incorrect
The General is an Observer

Where do you get that?  In all the photos I have seen of General Courter, she is not wearing wings of any kind.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amy_Courter

NOTE: I stand corrected, and Wikipedia should be too.

http://www.capsfuture.com/capexperience.htm

[RiverAux]

Besides, you are not required to wear wings....I've been an observer for 12-13 years and don't have them on my BDUs, though will usually wear the pin on blues...

[DG]

Not everyone in CAP is a pilot.
(I am an observer, FWIW)

CAP is not solely a pilot's organisation.

Some CAP members spend their entire CAP career without ever setting foot in an airplane, yet serve with distinction (our National Commander does not hold any aeronautical rating).

And your point is what?

That pilots and their concerns do not carry much weight?



What would you do with the airplanes, without the pilot?

What would the organization be, without the pilot?

At the very least, you would have to change the name.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

^^

My point is that pilots do not run Civil Air Patrol, and their desires carry no more and no less weight than the member who never sets foot in an airplane.

And what would pilots do without the support personnel on the ground, and without the schmuck in the right seat (that's an observer) who does everything except fly the plane?

If your reasoning is that just because you have a pilot's rating and wear pilot's wings, that your views have more weight, you are mistaken and a reality/ego check is in order, I think.

This is not a flying club, and Civil Air Patrol does not exist solely for Air Ops, as any experienced Ground Team member will be glad to tell you.

[Hawk200]

My point is that pilots do not run Civil Air Patrol, and their desires carry no more and no less weight than the member who never sets foot in an airplane.

Actually, I think your original point was that all of the attendees at an SLS wore polos, but not all were pilots. I believe that the implied point was that not everyone who wears a polo is a pilot. Am I right?

[Pylon]

Wow, that just surprises me that 40 senior members would all show up with the polo, if it wasn't somehow suggested as the preferred uniform.   Heck, after 13 years in CAP, I don't even own a polo.

Have you ever been in a senior squadron, Pylon?  I'm not trying to be a smart Alec; I'm just asking.

I transferred (due to a move) from a very squared-away composite squadron to a senior squadron that was probably about 3/4 pilots and had its own airplane.

I showed up at my first meeting in blues, with everything worn as correctly as I could make it, and I was the only one in the room in blues...and one of the only ones in a complete uniform.

Others were in various permutations of:

Flight suits, sometimes without any insignia except leather nameplate
Polo shirts of various kinds (this was about 10 years ago), usually worn with blue jeans
"Civil Air Patrol" tee shirts
Civilian clothes, but with a CAP baseball cap, which they believed covered (no pun intended) the requirement that they be in a CAP uniform when flying

However, the squadron commander usually wore grey/whites and wore them well (former Marine).  I saw him in blues once and he said he was reluctant to do that because "it's an Air Force uniform, and I'm not in the Air Force."

After he left, it was mostly uniforms-optional, and it wasn't because so many were out of H/W or grooming requirements...they just didn't want to wear uniforms.

I was asked at least once why I bothered to wear the blue uniform.

I have not been a member of a senior squadron, though I had a Group job before.  I guess I'm more surprised that 40 senior members would show up to an activity and all happen to be wearing the same uniform (regardless of whether it was the polo, or any other uniform), rather than being surprised specifically that a bunch of senior members wore the polo shirt.

In any case, that's not my experience locally.  At our meetings, 100% of the senior members are wearing either the AF-style uniform or the corporate equivalent appropriate for the UOD of the meeting.  But of course, to your original point, we're a composite squadron and we have cadets there.  When we've had senior-only meetings however, uniform wear still tend to be pretty solid and consistent.   I imagine that if you join a unit where everybody wears the UOD, wearing something else (even if allowed) makes you stick out.   The above posted story of wearing blues and sticking out at a meeting where nobody took uniforms seriously would apply conversely if you were the lone member in civvies or a polo at a meeting where everybody was wearing the AF-style or corp equivalent UOD.  Local practice obviously dominates.

[DG]

I transferred (due to a move) from a very squared-away composite squadron to a senior squadron that was probably about 3/4 pilots and had its own airplane.

I showed up at my first meeting in blues, with everything worn as correctly as I could make it, and I was the only one in the room in blues...and one of the only ones in a complete uniform.

Others were in various permutations of:

Flight suits, sometimes without any insignia except leather nameplate
Polo shirts of various kinds (this was about 10 years ago), usually worn with blue jeans
"Civil Air Patrol" tee shirts
Civilian clothes, but with a CAP baseball cap, which they believed covered (no pun intended) the requirement that they be in a CAP uniform when flying

However, the squadron commander usually wore grey/whites and wore them well (former Marine).  I saw him in blues once and he said he was reluctant to do that because "it's an Air Force uniform, and I'm not in the Air Force."

After he left, it was mostly uniforms-optional, and it wasn't because so many were out of H/W or grooming requirements...they just didn't want to wear uniforms.

I was asked at least once why I bothered to wear the blue uniform.

First of all, I don't believe for a second they believed what you say in the case of "Civilian clothes, but with a CAP baseball cap, which they believed covered (no pun intended) the requirement that they be in a CAP uniform when flying."

No doubt they were pulling your leg.  They picked up real fast that you were out of place.

And second of all, who was the one who was out of step?  Perhaps excusable, since you say it was your first meeting.

But your subsequent whining is not.