CAP Officer Basic Course - Launching announced

[Wildblueflyer]

+1 15 may 2010

[Shotgun]

Printed and scanned my Enrollment application.  Time stamp = 2009-12-09  09:31:33

Submitted application via email 2009-12-09 13:40:00 CST.

Accepted into the 15 February 2010 session.

Eligible for promotion to Captain 16 FEB 2010 for serving as Squadron Commander
Complete Level II upon completion of Officer Basic Course.

[flyguy06]

I think an Officer Basic Course is a great idea. And I like how they got the name from an Army school (OBC) :-)

But I wish this OBC were more of a hands on course rather than another easy to do "just go oline and complete" course.

The CAP needs a hands on course that senior members can physically attend and learn basic CAP officer stuff. Much like an encampment for senior membrs. just instead of making it a week, make it a weekend.

[vento]

I think an Officer Basic Course is a great idea. And I like how they got the name from an Army school (OBC) :-)

But I wish this OBC were more of a hands on course rather than another easy to do "just go oline and complete" course.

The CAP needs a hands on course that senior members can physically attend and learn basic CAP officer stuff. Much like an encampment for senior membrs. just instead of making it a week, make it a weekend.

We already have the SLS and later on the CLC for junior officers. No need to try to make CAP like a 100% military organization with an encampment like OBC. What we need is to have proper training to perform our missions well, not training to look like military officers.

[Eclipse]

We already have the SLS and later on the CLC for junior officers. No need to try to make CAP like a 100% military organization with an encampment like OBC. What we need is to have proper training to perform our missions well, not training to look like military officers.

I agree - The summary conversations cover most of what a member needs for the first couple of months, and a mentor or the commander can take it from there.  I encourage new members to get into an SLS as soon as they can after joining - my wing offers 3-4 per year so this is generally not a problem.

[Nick]

my wing offers 3-4 per year so this is generally not a problem.

... for your wing.  Some wings have trouble holding one a year, and other geographically dispersed wings have trouble pulling in a crowd.

[Eclipse]

my wing offers 3-4 per year so this is generally not a problem.

... for your wing.  Some wings have trouble holding one a year, and other geographically dispersed wings have trouble pulling in a crowd.

Yeah, I know - and getting to where we are was an uphill climb - for a long time there was only one a year and located as far from the population centers as possible.

[flyguy06]

I think an Officer Basic Course is a great idea. And I like how they got the name from an Army school (OBC) :-)

But I wish this OBC were more of a hands on course rather than another easy to do "just go oline and complete" course.

The CAP needs a hands on course that senior members can physically attend and learn basic CAP officer stuff. Much like an encampment for senior membrs. just instead of making it a week, make it a weekend.

We already have the SLS and later on the CLC for junior officers. No need to try to make CAP like a 100% military organization with an encampment like OBC. What we need is to have proper training to perform our missions well, not training to look like military officers.

But thats the problem vento. We dont have poper training. In my old squadron those guys can be at the computer all day and do this course. Is that going to make them better CAP officers? no it wont. They have checked a block and thats it. In my army unit, you know how my soldiers get through the ICS courses? Our training NCO has the answers to the online tests. He gives them to the soldiers and says "Go fill in the answers. And thats what happens in many CAP units. they go through the motions of an online course without getting any sustantive training. I know Senior members that have been in for years and still dont know how to salute or how t recognize rank. But its all in level I right? and they all had that. But did it stick? apparently not. I have been to so many functions and seen the Wing Commander enter the room ans noby does anything or some one will say "room attention" (whcih is incorrect as well) so I am sorry but I just dont think online courses give you the actual hands on practice you need that a physical course would give you


I was asked by some senior members than work in cadet programs recently to actually teach them how to drill. They wanted me to form them up and give them dril commands. So they desire is out there.

Why are folks against CAP being more military? Or is that just hear on this board? We wear a semi military uniform. if we are going to wear it then we need to behave like military officers. I read on here about senior member officers not saluting military officers when they should. You cant learn that online.

[Eclipse]

But thats the problem vento. We dont have poper training. In my old squadron those guys can be at the computer all day and do this course. Is that going to make them better CAP officers? no it wont. They have checked a block and thats it. In my army unit, you know how my soldiers get through the ICS courses? Our training NCO has the answers to the online tests. He gives them to the soldiers and says "Go fill in the answers. And thats what happens in many CAP units. they go through the motions of an online course without getting any sustantive training. I know Senior members that have been in for years and still dont know how to salute or how t recognize rank. But its all in level I right? and they all had that. But did it stick? apparently not. I have been to so many functions and seen the Wing Commander enter the room ans noby does anything or some one will say "room attention" (whcih is incorrect as well) so I am sorry but I just dont think online courses give you the actual hands on practice you need that a physical course would give you

My broken record, again - local issues do not reflect the national situation.  If there is no proper reinforcement and use of the training, then you can have a Ph.D in CAP and it won't matter because there's no use for it.

I see units all the time where the expectation is proper C&C and seniors form up in ranks like everyone else.  This is all they see from day 1.  These units tend to be the more motivated, cohesive, and top performers. Not because of the C&C, but because of the attention to detail and operations that comes with the C&C.  Its not just a "get away from the ball-n-chain night" these guys are there working.

Why are folks against CAP being more military? Or is that just hear on this board?

I don't think that's the case at all, here or otherwise.  The problem is that because of our schizophrenic nature, we tend to swing the pendulum too far depending on who's agenda we're working on.

What we need is the intestinal fortitude across the board and up the whole chain to adopt a consistent set of SOP's, attitude, and consequences, and then just "do it", accepting the attrition, growth, and eventual higher performance that will come with changing the rules somewhat.

I have never, personally, met a "corporate type" who wasn't willing to stand at attention, salute once in a while, and say "Sir" like it wasn't a four-letter-word, as long as its met with the same respect in return, leaving the Napoleon's at home, and there aren't any "special cases".

Likewise, those who adopt the military-mindset need to occasionally lighten up a bit, and realize the world won't come to end if someone calls you by your first name once in a while.

[Майор Хаткевич]

Likewise, those who adopt the military-mindset need to occasionally lighten up a bit, and realize the world won't come to end if someone calls you by your first name once in a while.

We have first names!?

I agree with everything that has been said. I always read about people who saw so-and-so not doing that or not saying that or not saluting that or demanding that from AD folks, but I've never seen it in my area, and my first unit and all Encampments took place at Great Lakes!

[lordmonar]

I think an Officer Basic Course is a great idea. And I like how they got the name from an Army school (OBC) :-)

But I wish this OBC were more of a hands on course rather than another easy to do "just go oline and complete" course.

The CAP needs a hands on course that senior members can physically attend and learn basic CAP officer stuff. Much like an encampment for senior membrs. just instead of making it a week, make it a weekend.

I disagree....to a point.   Yes it would be wonderful idea to get new CAP officers to a weekend course to teach basic leadership.  However, we only got so many weekends and even then a weekend is not really enough time.

If you look at the effort vs output you quickly see that would not pay off in the long run.

Smaller wings would have fewer of them per year then large wings which would slow up the training pipe line for that wing.

Even at a live course...how much hands on training will you get.  Assume it is a 1700 Firday to 1700 Sunday course you get a grand total of 48 hours to get your training in.  16 hours for sleeping, 5 hours for meals, 1-2 hours in/out processing...that gives you 25 hours for actual instruction time.  How many hours do you put aside for instruction and how many hours for hands on work?

Think this is a very good compromise between what would really be needed (a week long in-resident leadership course) vs the current very dry, very incorrect ECI-13.

[lordmonar]

I see units all the time where the expectation is proper C&C and seniors form up in ranks like everyone else.  This is all they see from day 1.  These units tend to be the more motivated, cohesive, and top performers. Not because of the C&C, but because of the attention to detail and operations that comes with the C&C.  Its not just a "get away from the ball-n-chain night" these guys are there working.

And there are also units where C&C are not stressed between the seniors and they are suscessful, cohearant, motivated and top perfomers.  C&C are not all that.

What works....works.

[Eclipse]

I see units all the time where the expectation is proper C&C and seniors form up in ranks like everyone else.  This is all they see from day 1.  These units tend to be the more motivated, cohesive, and top performers. Not because of the C&C, but because of the attention to detail and operations that comes with the C&C.  Its not just a "get away from the ball-n-chain night" these guys are there working.

And there are also units where C&C are not stressed between the seniors and they are suscessful, cohearant, motivated and top perfomers.  C&C are not all that.

What works....works.

I agree, to a point.  Sadly, there are far too few Hawkeye Pierce's (and too many Frank Burns', too).

What I can say for sure is that if everyone was consistently adhering to at least a baseline of C&C, we would not have these
dueling-camps of people at missions bases, encampments, and other activities.

You know the guys - you salute them and they duck like you were going to hit them...or that look at you like you have a second head when you suggest your name isn't "John", its "Captain Doe" (in situations where C&C are legitimately dictated).

[Hawk200]

Yes it would be wonderful idea to get new CAP officers to a weekend course to teach basic leadership.  However, we only got so many weekends and even then a weekend is not really enough time.

....
Even at a live course...how much hands on training will you get.  Assume it is a 1700 Firday to 1700 Sunday course you get a grand total of 48 hours to get your training in.  16 hours for sleeping, 5 hours for meals, 1-2 hours in/out processing...that gives you 25 hours for actual instruction time.  How many hours do you put aside for instruction and how many hours for hands on work?

Think this is a very good compromise between what would really be needed (a week long in-resident leadership course) vs the current very dry, very incorrect ECI-13.

Maybe a "combo" course would be more helpful. Online classes, as well as in-resident classes. The method is being used by numerous colleges to positive effect. It wouldn't have to be done at wing, groups could easily host a few weekend days a few times in a quarter.

There's also the benefit of people seeing that they've spent time and accomplished something. It would go a lot further for people's confidence level over "I spent a few hours doing online classes".

It seems like we're allowing a downslide in training/education and lowering the bar because "there's not enough time". I don't know any organization that is going to accept a person having 80 credit hours when the job they need you for requires a degree. Why should we be any different? (No, I'm not advocating that our officers have degrees, just pointing out the principle.)We want professionals, but aren't taking the time to train our members to be professionals.

[Hawk200]

You know the guys - you salute them and they duck like you were going to hit them...

Funny you should mention it that way, I've had a Wing CC or three that have done it. It would be amusing if it wasn't so sad.

[Eclipse]

Part of this is that we need everybody, but we also put the same expectations on everyone walking in the door.

On first contact, every new member has an equal shot at being the National Commander, and we rarely ever have conversations
about whether this or that development track or duty is appropriate (until they fail, spectacularly).

There are people who are leaders and people who are followers, and there are people in both camps who think they are one and should be the other.

How many of you have seen a new member, someone who's real life involves a day job with no management experience, be put in a Wing-level position the day their Level 1 is clear, only to see them buckle under the pressure and quit in under a year?

I don't have a quick fix, but raising the bar on expectations, PD, and initial training would sure help.

[Gunner C]

I see units all the time where the expectation is proper C&C and seniors form up in ranks like everyone else.  This is all they see from day 1.  These units tend to be the more motivated, cohesive, and top performers. Not because of the C&C, but because of the attention to detail and operations that comes with the C&C.  Its not just a "get away from the ball-n-chain night" these guys are there working.

And there are also units where C&C are not stressed between the seniors and they are suscessful, cohearant, motivated and top perfomers.  C&C are not all that.

What works....works.

I agree, to a point.  Sadly, there are far too few Hawkeye Pierce's (and too many Frank Burns', too).

What I can say for sure is that if everyone was consistently adhering to at least a baseline of C&C, we would not have these
dueling-camps of people at missions bases, encampments, and other activities.

You know the guys - you salute them and they duck like you were going to hit them...or that look at you like you have a second head when you suggest your name isn't "John", its "Captain Doe" (in situations where C&C are legitimately dictated).

I appreciate that.  Frankly, it's a balancing act for commanders.  I was brought up in a CAP culture that is COMPLETELY different from most of what we see today.  Our commander was from MNWG and the executive officer was from TXWG.  Both wings had strong, military centered programs.  If you went elsewhere in AKWG, there was a bunch of guys wearing flannel in J-3 cubs and U-6 Beavers.  They were embarrassing to us but that was just the way it was.

WIWA squadron and group CC, I had to move the program of first the squadron, then the group.  Sometimes it was a glacial pace, sometimes I had to make a stand.  If I corrected the patches on every uniform I saw, I never would have gotten anything done.  Sometimes progress in CAP is generational (regression comes overnight).

I think the new OBC is a good step.  It's not what I would have done if I were king, but that's not to say that what I would do would be best for the force as a whole.  I think what we need is a Civil Air Patrol 2.0 - start with the cadets.  Have a program that carries them from middle school to SM Lt Col.  Why would we have a program for youth that wouldn't provide us with the next generation of leaders.  In my region, the non-cadet average age is 39+.  That's part of the problem.  If we train them to be CAP officers from an early age, then all of this bickering and whining about having to wear uniforms, respecting the grade and position of others, and whether or not I should shave off my beard would mostly go away.  Others who join would look at CAP from that point of view, rather than CAP units kissing the hinterpart of prospective members.  Have a long-standing set of traditions that prospective members either respect or reject.  If they reject, then shake hands and move on. 

When you join the AF, you accept standards.  when you join the Marines, Army, Navy, CG, same thing.  Problem isn't that we don't have any, it's that we have too many.

YMMV

[flyguy06]

But thats the problem vento. We dont have poper training. In my old squadron those guys can be at the computer all day and do this course. Is that going to make them better CAP officers? no it wont. They have checked a block and thats it. In my army unit, you know how my soldiers get through the ICS courses? Our training NCO has the answers to the online tests. He gives them to the soldiers and says "Go fill in the answers. And thats what happens in many CAP units. they go through the motions of an online course without getting any sustantive training. I know Senior members that have been in for years and still dont know how to salute or how t recognize rank. But its all in level I right? and they all had that. But did it stick? apparently not. I have been to so many functions and seen the Wing Commander enter the room ans noby does anything or some one will say "room attention" (whcih is incorrect as well) so I am sorry but I just dont think online courses give you the actual hands on practice you need that a physical course would give you

My broken record, again - local issues do not reflect the national situation.  If there is no proper reinforcement and use of the training, then you can have a Ph.D in CAP and it won't matter because there's no use for it.

I see units all the time where the expectation is proper C&C and seniors form up in ranks like everyone else.  This is all they see from day 1.  These units tend to be the more motivated, cohesive, and top performers. Not because of the C&C, but because of the attention to detail and operations that comes with the C&C.  Its not just a "get away from the ball-n-chain night" these guys are there working.

Why are folks against CAP being more military? Or is that just hear on this board?

I don't think that's the case at all, here or otherwise.  The problem is that because of our schizophrenic nature, we tend to swing the pendulum too far depending on who's agenda we're working on.

What we need is the intestinal fortitude across the board and up the whole chain to adopt a consistent set of SOP's, attitude, and consequences, and then just "do it", accepting the attrition, growth, and eventual higher performance that will come with changing the rules somewhat.

I have never, personally, met a "corporate type" who wasn't willing to stand at attention, salute once in a while, and say "Sir" like it wasn't a four-letter-word, as long as its met with the same respect in return, leaving the Napoleon's at home, and there aren't any "special cases".

Likewise, those who adopt the military-mindset need to occasionally lighten up a bit, and realize the world won't come to end if someone calls you by your first name once in a while.

I agree withyou Eclipse. We do need to synchronize more and adopt a set of SOP's and stick with it. Those that dont want to follow it will leave and those that do will stay.

And yes I am a military tyoe and I dont get upset whener some one calls me by my first name. i dont likeit but I dont get all bent out of shape about it. i realize where i am and who i am dealing with.

[flyguy06]

I think an Officer Basic Course is a great idea. And I like how they got the name from an Army school (OBC) :-)

But I wish this OBC were more of a hands on course rather than another easy to do "just go oline and complete" course.

The CAP needs a hands on course that senior members can physically attend and learn basic CAP officer stuff. Much like an encampment for senior membrs. just instead of making it a week, make it a weekend.

I disagree....to a point.   Yes it would be wonderful idea to get new CAP officers to a weekend course to teach basic leadership.  However, we only got so many weekends and even then a weekend is not really enough time.

If you look at the effort vs output you quickly see that would not pay off in the long run.

Smaller wings would have fewer of them per year then large wings which would slow up the training pipe line for that wing.

Even at a live course...how much hands on training will you get.  Assume it is a 1700 Firday to 1700 Sunday course you get a grand total of 48 hours to get your training in.  16 hours for sleeping, 5 hours for meals, 1-2 hours in/out processing...that gives you 25 hours for actual instruction time.  How many hours do you put aside for instruction and how many hours for hands on work?

Think this is a very good compromise between what would really be needed (a week long in-resident leadership course) vs the current very dry, very incorrect ECI-13.

The State defense Force drills one weekend a month. Their OCS program is one weekend a month for a year. I am not suggesting that but why cant we have a CAP OBC over the course of a weekend? We do it with SLS and CLC. 

[lordmonar]

Flyguy.....We give a week end for SLS, CLC, Air Show, TLC, UCC, Wing Confernce, 8-10 SAREXs,.....now you want an OBC....how often should we do it?  Since it is a basic course it would have to be atleast every quarter just to keep up with new recruiting.

NVWG could not support that.  We have a hard enough time supporting the required training now....and I think we don't do SLS/CLC/UCC often enough to keep our members well trained.