Insignia for New Seniors in Alternate Uniforms

Started by davedove, October 10, 2006, 02:36:26 PM

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davedove

I have a question about the grade insignia for new senior members who, for whatever reason, choose to wear the alternate uniforms, specifically, the aviator shirt/grey slacks uniform and the blue field uniform.

Do you just wear the uniforms without any grade insignia?
David W. Dove, Maj, CAP
Deputy Commander for Seniors
Personnel/PD/Asst. Testing Officer
Ground Team Leader
Frederick Composite Squadron
MER-MD-003

arajca

I presume you're talking about SM's without grade. If so, you are correct. They don't wear anything on the shoulders until they either get their 2d Lt or receive their NCO grade (current and former military NCO's only).

davedove

Quote from: arajca on October 10, 2006, 03:00:36 PM
I presume you're talking about SM's without grade. If so, you are correct. They don't wear anything on the shoulders until they either get their 2d Lt or receive their NCO grade (current and former military NCO's only).

Yeah, sorry, that's what I meant.  Thanks.
David W. Dove, Maj, CAP
Deputy Commander for Seniors
Personnel/PD/Asst. Testing Officer
Ground Team Leader
Frederick Composite Squadron
MER-MD-003

Eclipse

I believe you have to wear "CAP" on the collar of the field uniform until you are appointed to a grade.

"That Others May Zoom"

Psicorp

I just went through this myself until I was promoted.  On the blue BDUs, everything is the same as the regular BDUs, just the color of the material is different.  SMs without grade still wear the cloth "CAP" insignia on both collars on the field uniforms and the metal "CAP" on the collars of the aviator shirts.

Welcome aboard!
Jamie Kahler, Capt., CAP
(C/Lt Col, ret.)
CC
GLR-MI-257

davedove

Quote from: Psicorp on October 10, 2006, 03:57:51 PM
I just went through this myself until I was promoted.  On the blue BDUs, everything is the same as the regular BDUs, just the color of the material is different.  SMs without grade still wear the cloth "CAP" insignia on both collars on the field uniforms and the metal "CAP" on the collars of the aviator shirts.

Welcome aboard!

Do you have a source for this information?  In the 39-1, I can find that this is true for the BDU's and the Service uniform, but I can't find anything about it for the CAP distinctive uniforms.

In a few more months I won't personally have to worry about this, but it would be good information for other new members.
David W. Dove, Maj, CAP
Deputy Commander for Seniors
Personnel/PD/Asst. Testing Officer
Ground Team Leader
Frederick Composite Squadron
MER-MD-003

Psicorp

It gets rather confusing at times because our uniforms seem to always be in a state of change.  Make sure when you are looking at 39-1, that you also look at the most recent letters/changes, not just the regulation itself.

For the Corporate uniform, 39-1 states:

New CAP Distinctive Uniform (atch 1). The Board approved a new optional
CAP distinctive uniform for senior members. The uniform consists of the following:
- White aviator shirt – short or long sleeve (AF blue tie or CAP blue floppy bow
mandatory with long sleeve shirt)
- Blue AF-style pants/slack or skirt
- Dark blue 1 ¼ inch cotton web or elastic belt with silver buckle
- Blue AF-style epaulets
- Blue two-line nameplate
- CAP badges and devices as currently authorized on the aviator shirt with gray
slacks combination are authorized
- No military badges or devices
- Currently, No headgear authorized (wear of headgear to be reviewed for possible
May NEC action)

Note that the headgear has been determined to be either the flight cap with the SM badge or the soon-to-be-released service cap.

Okay, now that I look at it, it's starting to frustrate me too :)    It doesn't specifically mention what insignia Senior Members without rank are to wear. *ack!* It would seem as though it follows the Air Force uniform though, which would indicate that CAP cutouts are called for.  Perhaps going without them would be okay too.

Jamie Kahler, Capt., CAP
(C/Lt Col, ret.)
CC
GLR-MI-257

MIKE

#7
I looked it up in CAPM 39-1, noticed it doesn't say anything about SMs w/o grade WRT the CAP distinctive uniforms... So I'm not comfortable commenting either way.

This is why I recommend new SMs stick to the golf shirts though, until they get their bars..
Mike Johnston

Psicorp

Quote from: MIKE on October 10, 2006, 06:42:54 PM
I looked it up in CAPM 39-1, noticed it doesn't say anything about SMs w/o grade WRT the CAP distinctive uniforms... So I'm not comfortable commending either way.

This is why I recommend new SMs stick to the golf shirts though, until they get their bars..

That would make sense, Sir, except that Level 1 is virtually the same as the Cadets' Phase 1 in that knowing and demonstrating how to wear the uniform (as well as basic customs and courtesies) is part of their introductory training.  I do realize that the golf shirt/slacks combo is a uniform, but many will want to wear either the Air Force style or the Corpprate uniforms after promotion.  Wouldn't it be better to have them learn and demonstrate it ahead of promotion?  Just a thought, Sir.
Jamie Kahler, Capt., CAP
(C/Lt Col, ret.)
CC
GLR-MI-257

SarDragon

Quote from: Psicorp on October 10, 2006, 09:07:06 PMThat would make sense, Sir, except that Level 1 is virtually the same as the Cadets' Phase 1 in that knowing and demonstrating how to wear the uniform (as well as basic customs and courtesies) is part of their introductory training.  I do realize that the golf shirt/slacks combo is a uniform, but many will want to wear either the Air Force style or the Corpprate uniforms after promotion.  Wouldn't it be better to have them learn and demonstrate it ahead of promotion?  Just a thought, Sir.

Emphasis mine.

Not exactly. During Phase I, the cadets laern to wear the uniform on a practical basis during the [however many] weeks they are in that phase, and are thoroughly educated when they are done.

During Level I for the SMs, they attend a one day class, only after completion of which are they allowed to wear a uniform. There is really no practice period involved. I guess that adults are expected to get it right the first time.

As for the OP's question, all that info should have been put out during your Level I class. If it wasn't, your instructors have done you a disservice.
Dave Bowles
Maj, CAP
AT1, USN Retired
50 Year Member
Mitchell Award (unnumbered)
C/WO, CAP, Ret

Eclipse

One day?  Heh...Including lunch, dinner & breaks?

Most Seniors get a couple hours sitting in front of a tv and then are sent home clueless.

The new Level one is study-at-home w/ even less interaction.

That's not what >we< do, but what I hear many units do.

With that said, I too recommend  the golf shirt combo for new members.

A) Why spend the time and money on an org you may not fit with.  There's very little most seniors could do in their first 6 months that can't be performed / trained in the golf shirt combo.

B) Those silly cutouts ruin your shirt.

"That Others May Zoom"

afgeo4

We should probably stick with the spirit of regulations and say that unless something is authorized, it is not.  So...  no metal cap cutouts are authorized on the new alternate corporate uniform (white shirt, blue pants) and thus none shall be worn until such is authorized.  I think it is in line with the USAF Airman Basics not wearing any grade insignia.  Be advised that metal cap cutouts are to be worn on the alternate corporate uniform's service jacket and lightweight jacket (on epaulets). 

Has anyone checked out the look of black shoes, blue pants, white shirt, black jacket, blue flight cap look?  It kinda scares me a lil, but I haven't seen it either on anyone or in pictures.
GEORGE LURYE

davedove

Quote from: afgeo4 on October 12, 2006, 03:17:02 PM
We should probably stick with the spirit of regulations and say that unless something is authorized, it is not. 

That's what I would tend to say.  In 39-1, the requirements for senior members without grade are specifically spelled out, so the cutouts must be worn.

Since senior members without grade are NOT mentioned for the CAP distinctive uniforms, it would tell me that nothing is worn.
David W. Dove, Maj, CAP
Deputy Commander for Seniors
Personnel/PD/Asst. Testing Officer
Ground Team Leader
Frederick Composite Squadron
MER-MD-003

SarDragon

Quote from: davedove on October 12, 2006, 08:10:54 PM
Quote from: afgeo4 on October 12, 2006, 03:17:02 PM
We should probably stick with the spirit of regulations and say that unless something is authorized, it is not. 

That's what I would tend to say.  In 39-1, the requirements for senior members without grade are specifically spelled out, so the cutouts must be worn.

Since senior members without grade are NOT mentioned for the CAP distinctive uniforms, it would tell me that nothing is worn.

That is correct. The language is a little (very) vague, but my read is that SMWOG wear nothing associated with grade, including the "blank" grey epaulet slides.
Dave Bowles
Maj, CAP
AT1, USN Retired
50 Year Member
Mitchell Award (unnumbered)
C/WO, CAP, Ret

carnold1836

The CAP cut-outs must be worn with the White/Grey until promoted to 2LT. As for White/Blue from the Memorandum for CAP Unit Comanders dated 15 March 2006 the followin is stated

"CAP badges and devices as currently authorized on the aviator shirt with gray slacks combination are authorized."

So wouldn't this include the CAP cutouts for SMWOG? Just currious.

As for the golf shirt I am not an overly big fan of those. I have seen them being worn at group commander's calls and group staff meetings and those that are wearing them look like they are in a flying club and not in an organization that prides itself in its heritage of working closely with the USAAC/USAF.

Just my .02
Chris Arnold, 1st Lt, CAP
Pegasus Composite Squadron

DNall

Not that this bears on the answer here, but we did have a thread over at the portal that discussed a blanck CAP slide & blank blue slide, and back to embroidered cutouts on the BDU. How do you tell the dif between an older looking (17-18) C/AB & a young (18-19) SM? That might be important from a legal perspective. Oh, and since "Senior Member" is being dropped, we went to calling this "Officer Candidate." Wouldn't that just be so much simpler, and I understand vanguard has blank CAP slides - I guess they do the embroidery in house.

SarDragon

Quote from: carnold1836 on November 02, 2006, 02:03:10 PM
The CAP cut-outs must be worn with the White/Grey until promoted to 2LT.

Reference please. I see no mention of cutouts on the white aviator shirt worn with the grey slacks.

QuoteAs for White/Blue from the Memorandum for CAP Unit Comanders dated 15 March 2006 the followin is stated

"CAP badges and devices as currently authorized on the aviator shirt with gray slacks combination are authorized."

So wouldn't this include the CAP cutouts for SMWOG? Just currious.

Probably not. See above.

QuoteAs for the golf shirt I am not an overly big fan of those. I have seen them being worn at group commander's calls and group staff meetings and those that are wearing them look like they are in a flying club and not in an organization that prides itself in its heritage of working closely with the USAAC/USAF.

Just my .02

They are comfortable, they are easy to take care of, and when everyone is wearing them, they are uniform.
Dave Bowles
Maj, CAP
AT1, USN Retired
50 Year Member
Mitchell Award (unnumbered)
C/WO, CAP, Ret

SarDragon

Quote from: DNall on November 02, 2006, 10:14:04 PM[redacted] How do you tell the dif between an older looking (17-18) C/AB & a young (18-19) SM?

Well, in anything but BDUs, the nametag. In BDUs, 

QuoteThat might be important from a legal perspective. Oh, and since "Senior Member" is being dropped, we went to calling this "Officer Candidate." Wouldn't that just be so much simpler, and I understand vanguard has blank CAP slides - I guess they do the embroidery in house.

They probably aren't embroidered at all by Vanguard. The blank slides are intended for NCO pin-on rank.  I haven't ever seen the slides with embroidered NCO rank, although they are alleged to exist. I don't see them in the Vanguard catalog.

YMMV.
Dave Bowles
Maj, CAP
AT1, USN Retired
50 Year Member
Mitchell Award (unnumbered)
C/WO, CAP, Ret

Camas

Quote from: SarDragon
Reference please. I see no mention of cutouts on the white aviator shirt worn with the grey slacks.

I was under the impression that members without grade simply wore the aviator shirt with just a nametag.

BillB

A member without grade can wear any authorized uniform. But there are so few that nobody thought about them when 39-1 was written to give all details on uniform insignias. One reason being that members without grade most often have not taken level 1 and CPPT. However there are members that prefer not to be officers, those are the ones National forgot.
Gil Robb Wilson # 19
Gil Robb Wilson # 104

carnold1836

CAPM 39-1 page 20

Quote
NOTES:
1.   Grade Insignia: Senior member officers wear embroidered grade insignia on gray epaulet sleeve. Senior member NCOs and Airmen wear the 3-inch or 3 1/2-inch cloth chevrons on the sleeve or embroidered gray epaulet sleeve. Senior members without grade and NCOs and Airmen wearing chevrons on the sleeve wear the CAP lapel/collar insignia on both sides of the collar.

Emphasis added by me.
Chris Arnold, 1st Lt, CAP
Pegasus Composite Squadron

shorning

Quote from: carnold1836 on November 13, 2006, 01:50:06 AM
CAPM 39-1 page 20

Quote
NOTES:
1.   Grade Insignia: Senior member officers wear embroidered grade insignia on gray epaulet sleeve. Senior member NCOs and Airmen wear the 3-inch or 3 1/2-inch cloth chevrons on the sleeve or embroidered gray epaulet sleeve. Senior members without grade and NCOs and Airmen wearing chevrons on the sleeve wear the CAP lapel/collar insignia on both sides of the collar.

Emphasis added by me.

Except that doesn't apply to the aviator shirt combo.  You want Figure 4-2, Note 2:

Quote2. Grade Insignia: Gray CAP epaulet sleeves displaying grade insignia.

Pylon

Quote from: carnold1836 on November 13, 2006, 01:50:06 AM
CAPM 39-1 page 20

Quote
NOTES:
1.   Grade Insignia: Senior member officers wear embroidered grade insignia on gray epaulet sleeve. Senior member NCOs and Airmen wear the 3-inch or 3 1/2-inch cloth chevrons on the sleeve or embroidered gray epaulet sleeve. Senior members without grade and NCOs and Airmen wearing chevrons on the sleeve wear the CAP lapel/collar insignia on both sides of the collar.

Emphasis added by me.

Same thing Col Horning said... you took the quote out of context.  We all know Senior Members without grade wear CAP cutouts on the blues.  That's specified on the page you quoted, which deals only with the USAF-style uniform.

When you look at the corresponding page for the corporate short-sleeve shirt, you see the quote that Col Horning posted which says grade insignia will be worn on grey epaulet sleeves.  Senior members without grade, accordingly, have no grade insignia.

Verbatim, there is no prescribed insignia to be worn in the aviator combo for Senior Members without grade.  Is it a grey area?  You bet.  Would clarification from NHQ be nice?  Certainly.  In the meantime, we go by what the regs spell out for us.
Michael F. Kieloch, Maj, CAP

carnold1836

OOPS my mistake. at times CAPR 39-1 leaves quite a bit to be desired. It's almost as if the corporate uniforms were an after thought.
Chris Arnold, 1st Lt, CAP
Pegasus Composite Squadron

DNall

Quote from: Pylon on November 13, 2006, 02:07:16 AM
Quote from: carnold1836 on November 13, 2006, 01:50:06 AM
CAPM 39-1 page 20

Quote
NOTES:
1.   Grade Insignia: Senior member officers wear embroidered grade insignia on gray epaulet sleeve. Senior member NCOs and Airmen wear the 3-inch or 3 1/2-inch cloth chevrons on the sleeve or embroidered gray epaulet sleeve. Senior members without grade and NCOs and Airmen wearing chevrons on the sleeve wear the CAP lapel/collar insignia on both sides of the collar.

Emphasis added by me.

Same thing Col Horning said... you took the quote out of context.  We all know Senior Members without grade wear CAP cutouts on the blues.  That's specified on the page you quoted, which deals only with the USAF-style uniform.

When you look at the corresponding page for the corporate short-sleeve shirt, you see the quote that Col Horning posted which says grade insignia will be worn on grey epaulet sleeves.  Senior members without grade, accordingly, have no grade insignia.

Verbatim, there is no prescribed insignia to be worn in the aviator combo for Senior Members without grade.  Is it a grey area?  You bet.  Would clarification from NHQ be nice?  Certainly.  In the meantime, we go by what the regs spell out for us.

That's right. Obviously a lot of thought was not put into it. Plus I'm not real happy about poking permenant holes in 2 blues shirts this wknd while waiting for my paperwork to process for my prior grade. Now, while clarifying this, I would sure like to see a blank gray CAP slide to cover both, and back to sewn on CAP cutouts for BDU/BBDU, no insignia for flight suit. There's a real legal issue w/ having a SM (who may be 18yo) wearing the same insignia as a C/AB (who may be 17yo).

And while we're at it, it would be nice to change the enlisted cadet grade rule to be the same for both blues & BDUs, & in that process to have enlisted cadets go back to cutout on one side & grade on the other, for the obvious logistics/cost issues that have been stated repeatedly.

All that's really easy fixes with already avail items that clean up these issue nicely.

Psicorp

Quote from: DNall on November 16, 2006, 12:54:44 AM

That's right. Obviously a lot of thought was not put into it. Plus I'm not real happy about poking permenant holes in 2 blues shirts this wknd while waiting for my paperwork to process for my prior grade. Now, while clarifying this, I would sure like to see a blank gray CAP slide to cover both, and back to sewn on CAP cutouts for BDU/BBDU, no insignia for flight suit. There's a real legal issue w/ having a SM (who may be 18yo) wearing the same insignia as a C/AB (who may be 17yo).


Sewn on CAP cutouts for "Officer Candidates" are allowed on the BDU/BBDU.  That's the only thing that distinguishes a SM from a C/AB and there is no grade insignia authorized (because there isn't actual grade insignia) for SM without Grade and Cadets on the flight suit.   Blank slides are a great idea, definately gives uniform the "Officer Candidate" look.
Jamie Kahler, Capt., CAP
(C/Lt Col, ret.)
CC
GLR-MI-257

DNall

I'd have to check the reg on that, but I could swear it says metal cutouts on BDU/BBDU exactly like cadets. Like I said, just still pissed about having to poke never go away holes in a couple blues shirts for a wknd activity. That's stupid we do that to SMs. We wonder why they have uniform problems as 2Lts when we don't put any more thought into it than that.

Anyway, blank slides, avail from vanguard now.... I mention this repeatedly cause a whole lot of the things we talked about on the portal & here suddenly seem to be in the works, based on: Iowa's updates; recent threads here; and a long conversation I had with a region staff officer this past wknd. Just hoping it sticks.

davedove

I could go for the blank slide, or slides with CAP but not a rank insignia.

In fact, I saw a new senior member at the MDWG conference last weekend who was wearing these on the blue service jacket.  It looked kind of strange without the rank insignia.

I don't know where this person got the idea, but I certainly don't think I've seen anything official on this.
David W. Dove, Maj, CAP
Deputy Commander for Seniors
Personnel/PD/Asst. Testing Officer
Ground Team Leader
Frederick Composite Squadron
MER-MD-003

carnold1836

Sticks like TeflonTM DNall. But I agree I'm hoping that some of the things that I talked about with the same SWR staff officer sees the light of day soon.
Chris Arnold, 1st Lt, CAP
Pegasus Composite Squadron

MIKE

Quote from: CAPM 39-1 Figure 2-17.NOTES: 2. CAP Lapel/Collar Insignia: Senior member NCOs and Airmen as well as senior members without grade wear this device on both sides of the collar. Cadet members without grade wear metal device on both sides of the collar. NOTE: Senior member and cadet officers as well as cadet NCOs and airman wore this device on the
left collar prior to 4 March 2005. Wear of this device is no longer authorized for these individuals. Members
have until 30 September 2005 to comply with this policy change.
Mike Johnston

DNall

Quote from: davedove on November 16, 2006, 09:20:34 PM
slides with CAP but not a rank insignia.
That's what I meant by blank slide, sorry. Gray slide w/ "CAP" & no grade. That or add a fourth stripe for SFO & make the FO slide for SM, or as officer candidate as we're attempting to shift it.

Chris, I did talk to the officer involved about a couple things, but the part I was ref'ing above speaks more to things he told me about being on the drawing board, and I was happy to hear it.

SJFedor

Don't you DARE add a 4th stripe to the SFO epaulets!

I've already got almost 50 bucks in FO/TFO/SFO paraphanalia I'm trying to pawn off on someone else. I don't need to buy more!

Besides, FO and TFO look ok, but SFO has people asking me if I'm a commander(USN/USCG), and I know what'll happen if we put a 4th one on there.

Steven Fedor, NREMT-P
Master Ambulance Driver
Former Capt, MP, MCPE, MO, MS, GTL, and various other 3-and-4 letter combinations
NESA MAS Instructor, 2008-2010 (#479)

Al Sayre

Well, that wouldnt be that bad, if an SFO had 4 stripes, since when you turn 21 you'd go from "being mistaken for a CAPT" to being a Capt.
Lt Col Al Sayre
MS Wing Staff Dude
Admiral, Great Navy of the State of Nebraska
GRW #2787

DNall

You'd be mistaken for a C/Col since AFROTC insignia goes by the navy model, don't ask me why, and clearly you're not a 20yo O-6 Captain.

Don't complain to me. I had FO & TFO in maroon, then bought SFO in maroon a couple months before I could put on, then happily bought SFO in gray, which I then never put on cause I turned 21 before the slow paperwork made it around, so I had to put on 1Lt, which lasted a couple months or something as I recall before I put on Captain. Now since I rejoined I'm waiting for Major to come back that I earned in 2000. But that has them all confused so they're talking about getting me Captain back while I wait, and I've been waiting two months for that form to process - mind you now, NHQ has dates of rank on all of this & the record flagged for ref by my echelon commanders before I even turned in the application.

Obviously we change too much stuff too fast, and screw our members contantly by making them buy new junk plus not taking care of them at all, hence our retention sucks to criminal proportions. Too many things in our current system don't make sense... What I'd like to see us do is stop the crazy-train, apply common sense across the board (which may change your FO insignia or even the fact that we have FOs), then freeze it all for a while with some new rules about how to make uniform & program changes inthe future.

LtCol White

DNALL, did something fall and hit you in the head? What you are asking makes too much sense. You're not thinking clearly to think that NHQ would do this! But it is a nice pipe dream.
LtCol David P. White CAP   
HQ LAWG

Admiral, Great Navy of the State of Nebraska

Diplomacy - The ability to tell someone to "Go to hell" and have them look forward to making the trip.

TankerT

Quote from: DNall on November 29, 2006, 08:20:19 PM
Obviously we change too much stuff too fast, and screw our members contantly by making them buy new junk plus not taking care of them at all, hence our retention sucks to criminal proportions.

OK... so... if your proposed wings/badges go through... isn't that forcing me to buy new junk?

/Insert Snappy Comment Here

DNall

Perfection is out of reach, but they're not all completerly dense up there. They mostly have good intentions, they're just so disconnected they have no idea what's going on in the field & can't see or understand our issues. We may not all see eye to eye on what represents the common sense solution to each thing, but I think we can mostly come togther on things. From that the folks on top will listen most of the time & adopt a goodly portion of it, if you're patient. It doesn't fix the system since more stuff has gone stupid faster than the process to fix things, but I don't control the reset button, that's off in Congress or the AF somewhere in someone's desk that I'm sure doesn't know he has that power.

The group proposed stuff I worked on you mean, cause there's a couple other proposals out there too. Yes though it does. As I said, the system is broke, the best thing would be to stop & fix it, then freeze it that way for a few years (5) while the process is fixed to keep history from repeating itself. I said make changes that make sense & have a real measurable purpose, don't be rash about things.

Anyway, a blank or one stripe slide for officer candidates (formerly known as SMWOG) is more based on a liability issue, that happens to also be logical.