Disbandment of the National ES Committee

[Larry Mangum]

Lt Col Pete Anderson was dismissed as the head of the team last month and it appears that the team has been disbanded as it no longer appears as a committee inthe latest staff reports out of NHQ.  I don't think thaty any of us who were part of the team where formally notified of the teams disbandment, except for the email we all received from Pete, saying he had been dismissed.

[RiverAux]

Obviously all our ES issues have been resolved.  Good to know.

[lordmonar]

What was the ES commitee chartered to do?

[arajca]

Was it an ad hoc or standing committee?

[Larry Mangum]

It was chartered to rewrite CAPR 60-3 and the  SQTR's  to start.

[DG]

Can we get more details?

[arajca]

So it was chartered to do a specific project, completed its work, and was disbanded. Seems like a normal life span for an ad hoc committee. Nothing evil there, although how the information got out wasn't the best.

[Eclipse]

Can we get more details?

The messages I've seen from Lt. Col. Anderson and others seem to indicate that even committee members weren't given much notice or information.

In that case, if the committee members themselves want to either tell us what they know or conjecture publicly, fine, otherwise we should probably just leave this be without a lot of speculation.

[SarMaster]

Bye Bye IMU........

If CAP kills IMU we go back  10 years!

[Eclipse]

Bye Bye IMU........

I'll hold the door open on its way out...

[SarMaster]

IMU is a great software app.... If national would let Pete develope it.  He has kicked Butt...Here national goes again with the 'If we didnt create it...were not going to use it'   turds...

[FW]

IMU is a great app.  It's not going anywhere.  Pete is working with NHQ/IT for transfering the app to Maxwell.  I've heard it direct from the CAP/EX; IMU is here to stay.

[Eclipse]

turds...

Well, as long as we can respectfully disagree...   

[Short Field]

And every time we have a class on GPS, we have a few of the older members who start whining how things were better before we used GPS on the missions.... 

[Larry Mangum]

The demise of the Committee has nothing to do with the IMU.  The team had completed its work on CAPR 60-3 and the SQTR's and the work was passed on to another committeee that is working on adding the HLS and CD missions into the regulation.  The purpose of my post was to let, you the members, know that the committee no longer existed and that there was no "offical" announcement of the committes being disbanded.  If I mishandled that. then you have my sincre apology.

[lordmonar]

Bye Bye IMU........

I'll hold the door open on its way out...

Sure IMU has some problems....but we use it all the time I would take it over paper any day of the week.

When you add the remote capabilities......it is greatly superior to paper.

[Short Field]

The nice thing about just using paper for a SAR or SAREX is you don't have to worry about makiing sure all the data is entered correctly.   

[lordmonar]

The nice thing about just using paper for a SAR or SAREX is you don't have to worry about makiing sure all the data is entered correctly.   

So long as the tach time and hobbs time match 

[Gunner C]

Yep - Hobbs & tach are as important to some as getting a find.    Strange but true.

[Nick]

I'm the first guy to advocate using technology.  It's part of my job, all across the board (civilian, military and CAP).  But, there has to be some provision for a failback in the event the technology isn't available.

Example: An ICP that doesn't have Internet access.  How are you going to manage the incident without WMIRS/IMU access if NHQ is saying that everything must be done through these platforms?

Another example: In the post-strike phase of a disaster (take Katrina or its relative companions) where there is no internet connectivity, how are you going to validate someone for a current ES qualification if they don't have a eServices-generated CAPF 101 on them and you can't verify the status in eServices?

The point is -- what's the backup anymore?

[Gunner C]

I'm the first guy to advocate using technology.  It's part of my job, all across the board (civilian, military and CAP).  But, there has to be some provision for a failback in the event the technology isn't available.

Another example: In the post-strike phase of a disaster (take Katrina or its relative companions) where there is no internet connectivity, how are you going to validate someone for a current ES qualification if they don't have a eServices-generated CAPF 101 on them and you can't verify the status in eServices?

The point is -- what's the backup anymore?

Exactly!  In the late 90s, NCWG had a heck of a time responding to a fairly major hurricane.  ALL of the repeaters in the operational area were inop - no power.  Cell phones didn't work - same reason.  HF had become a thing of the past, except for one net during the week (never passed any operational traffic) and a Sunday net run by the CV (the chaplain would give a sermon).  We could still otherwise operate because 101 cards weren't automated.

How about the bad guys sneaking a small nuke into the country and setting it off? (Surface burst)  The internet will be snarled.  HF will be useless - the ionosphere will be disrupted.  FM nets will be good only for local stuff, but nothing electronic will survive for a long distance from the detonation.  Cell phones won't be able to get through unless you have a GETS card (and only if you're lucky enough to get the initial call through), and NO cell phones will work in the operational area because all of the cell tower equipment will be fried, and it won't matter if you're upwind from the fallout.

Yep, we need backup. 

[DG]

And every time we have a class on GPS, we have a few of the older members who start whining how things were better before we used GPS on the missions.... 

Really?  We don't have that anymore in our Wing.

[sparks]

CAP needs a plan "B" when we don't have power grid support and the internet. Portable generators can be part of the solution and a paper process is the other. Of course a lap top (on the generator) with the information in it ready to send would be another excellent option. I can't imagine all the traffic trying to get through to the NOC using HF, it'd be a zoo.

All of the air crew members in my wing whine if they don't have GPS! If it is disabled during a CAPF 91 check ride the whining gets really loud!!!

[isuhawkeye]

CAP does have some components of a plan B in place.  The folks who went to katrina can speak to the Satellite phones, HF nets, generators, and ferry missions that took place.

[Eclipse]

Another example: In the post-strike phase of a disaster (take Katrina or its relative companions) where there is no internet connectivity, how are you going to validate someone for a current ES qualification if they don't have a eServices-generated CAPF 101 on them and you can't verify the status in eServices?

Our regulations dictate they have one - no card, no play.  "There were 37 weeks prior to this emergency when you could have gotten your act together.  Now is not the time."

Further, ICS doctrine dictates that the ICP be located outside the affected area in a place with reliable infrastructure.

NHQ is in the process of rolling out mobile HF rigs to all GTL's in every state, this would seem to negate the issue of long-distance communications.  If HF is a "zoo", its because of poorly trained operators, that's a training issue.

[Nick]

And every time we have a class on GPS, we have a few of the older members who start whining how things were better before we used GPS on the missions.... 

Really?  We don't have that anymore in our Wing.

Yeah, I still have the occasional guy here (CAP) or there (AF) that reminds me of all the ways GPS is vulnerable (poor coverage, dead batteries, NUDET like Gunner's talking about, etc. etc.) and that 'ol map and compass is the way to go.

I apply the same logic to GPS as I do to the eServices thing ... sure, map and compass is a good backup (which means people need to know how to use it), but if it's ever an issue of spacial navigation, GPS has become the gold standard in doing it.

Exactly!  In the late 90s, NCWG had a heck of a time responding to a fairly major hurricane.  ALL of the repeaters in the operational area were inop - no power.  Cell phones didn't work - same reason.  HF had become a thing of the past, except for one net during the week (never passed any operational traffic) and a Sunday net run by the CV (the chaplain would give a sermon).  We could still otherwise operate because 101 cards weren't automated.

How about the bad guys sneaking a small nuke into the country and setting it off? (Surface burst)  The internet will be snarled.  HF will be useless - the ionosphere will be disrupted.  FM nets will be good only for local stuff, but nothing electronic will survive for a long distance from the detonation.  Cell phones won't be able to get through unless you have a GETS card (and only if you're lucky enough to get the initial call through), and NO cell phones will work in the operational area because all of the cell tower equipment will be fried, and it won't matter if you're upwind from the fallout.

Yep, we need backup. 

I have a GETS card and WPS on my cell phone.  Good luck getting either of them to work.  WPS depends on there 1) being cell service to begin with, and 2) being able to access the network to even initiate the call with the WPS prefix... THEN your call gets put into the WPS queue.  GETS depends on 1) phone service to the phone you are trying to use, 2) a long-distance telco trunk being available (i.e., not destroyed), and 3) the GETS service being available.  It gets even more fun trying to use GETS over WPS.  It's a nice service to have, but cellular/wireline phone service in general is something you cannot depend on trans/post-disaster if you are in the affected area.  Invest in satellite phones and hardened VHF/UHF radios.

CAP needs a plan "B" when we don't have power grid support and the internet. Portable generators can be part of the solution and a paper process is the other. Of course a lap top (on the generator) with the information in it ready to send would be another excellent option. I can't imagine all the traffic trying to get through to the NOC using HF, it'd be a zoo.

All of the air crew members in my wing whine if they don't have GPS! If it is disabled during a CAPF 91 check ride the whining gets really loud!!!

I agree.  Obviously, members have the responsibility to generate their own 101's whenever they change.  Units should maintain paper copies of rosters and training (especially since practically all training is maintained online).  Mission staff should have alternate methods for documenting and reporting mission information -- I don't like the direction NHQ is going by putting in policy that everything must be submitted via WMIRS and not even addressing offline methods.

Our regulations dictate they have one - no card, no play.  "There were 37 weeks prior to this emergency when you could have gotten your act together.  Now is not the time."

Really? Where's it say that?

Further, ICS doctrine dictates that the ICP be located outside the affected area in a place with reliable infrastructure.

NHQ is in the process of rolling out mobile HF rigs to all GTL's in every state, this would seem to negate the issue of long-distance communications.  If HF is a "zoo", its because of poorly trained operators, that's a training issue.

I do agree with that. That was the whole idea behind the C3 stuff and other similar models.  But, my experience with HF throughout the years has been -- never depend on HF.


But, let's touch on another issue -- we're talking about internet/communications and all that going down in the affected area, and how ICPs should be outside the area.  Okay... what happens when Mr. haxx0r takes down WMIRS and/or eServices?

[heliodoc]

Good  points on all the phone, HF and internet connections to be kept up and running!

Like Tom Cruise said   "Show me the money!!!"

CAp apparently needs to become a paid agency under DHS 

[Eclipse]

The first thing on most required equipment lists is "ID card and 101 card".

As to WMIRS and eServices, neither is necessary from an operational perspective to run a mission, they are simply part of our SOP's to make higher HQ's aware of our operations.  We still have paper forms to fall back on with no issues.

[Eclipse]

The other thing we all seem to forget is that CAP is not a first-responder agency, we are secondary and tertiary, if not further down the chain.

Beyond self-care, and extremely localized response, we don't get involved until the big 3- and 4- letter agencies are already on scene with infrastructure established.

At Katrina we were in a huge command area with a city's worth of infrastructure, and in full communications thanks to highbirds and airborne repeaters.  The HF issue down there was a user issue, eventually worked out, and despite the Armageddon-like nature
of the destruction, cel phone service, including data, was functional all the way to the MS coast.

In KY we had a FEMA Sat trailer providing internet to anyone who needed it.

I'm not saying we don't need backups, but we are not a remote observation post on the Neutral Zone.  By design, when we get there, things have settled down a bit and the area is generally spinning back up.

[Nick]

The first thing on most required equipment lists is "ID card and 101 card".

As to WMIRS and eServices, neither is necessary from an operational perspective to run a mission, they are simply part of our SOP's to make higher HQ's aware of our operations.  We still have paper forms to fall back on with no issues.

I know it's on the equipment lists.  But, the point I'm trying to make is that if you're hard up for members to participate in a mission and the only one you can get is a guy that you know to be qualified, are you going to try him/her away because they can't find their 101 when the reg says that equivalent computer (-generated, I trust) rosters are authorized?

As for WMIRS and eServices -- you're right, you don't need them to run a mission.  But, it concerns me how much I see 60-3 and other regulatory sources abandon any guidance for paper-based reporting in lieu of WMIRS and OpsQuals.  It's the classic "all eggs -> one basket" thing.

The other thing we all seem to forget is that CAP is not a first-responder agency, we are secondary and tertiary, if not further down the chain.

[snip]

I'm not saying we don't need backups, but we are not a remote observation post on the Neutral Zone.  By design, when we get there, things have settled down a bit and the area is generally spinning back up.

Heheh.  True enough point, at least in the DR world.  Different story for SAR, but I don't think that's the big audience for this topic.

[flyerthom]

And every time we have a class on GPS, we have a few of the older members who start whining how things were better before we used GPS on the missions.... 

young whippersnappers! I had to walk uphill through the Las Vegas Snow 20 miles just to get to the hangar ... 

[lordmonar]

And every time we have a class on GPS, we have a few of the older members who start whining how things were better before we used GPS on the missions.... 

young whippersnappers! I had to walk uphill through the Las Vegas Snow 20 miles just to get to the hangar ... 

That's uphill both ways!