Tuck in your Polo

[Hawk200]

A commander that passes a gutcheck. Nice. Where's your group, Gunner? I want in.

Too many people say "I'm a volunteer!" or "We're only volunteers!". As if that's a legitimate reason to do whatever you want. People cease to be volunteers the day they do so.

I don't care if you're getting paid or not, you "volunteer" to be part of something. Show some conviction and do it. Or don't. Paid status has nothing to with it. If you can't, or won't, then leave.

Yes, I know, there are times you just can't do something. Can't leave work in the middle of the day for a mission? I get that. Stuck at home with children that you're taking care of? Not a problem. The good commanders understand that, too. But when it somes to showing up to a function that you regularly attend in an appropriate uniform, there's no excuse.

Glad to see that there's a commander out there that believes that command, even in a volunteer organization,  is something to take seriously.

[DogCollar]

I have disagreed with Gunner C a few times over issues, but on this issues I agree with him 100%.

In my "real life" job, besides being a chaplain I also am the director of volunteers for my hospital.  I had a volunteer that I had to counsel continually about her behavior.  She thought that because she was a volunteer she could pretty much do whatever she wanted.  I finally had to ask her for her badge and told her not to comeback.  She tried to complain to my supervisor, but I had already told her why I was doing this and what I had done to try to prevent it.  She supported my decision completely.

I guess what I am saying is that being a volunteer that doesn't follow rules and regulations is inviting consequences.

[alamrcn]

If you guys are done writing your names in the snow....   


Do the CAP polos have the little triangle notch details on the sides? This used to be a tell-tale sign of a female cut shirt, however in these days of unisex clothing many male polo shirts also have these small details as well.

In the clothing industry, a golf or polo shirt with these two details is worn untucked. If the shirt is "unremarkable" on the sides, it is to be tucked in regardless of being a male or female cut.

This clothing industry trend has nothing to do with what CAP members are supposed to do, and it probably wasn't even considered when creating the uniform. But it's a curious item to consider anyway.

[D2SK]

   I'm really thankful for CAPTALK providing a venue for informative threads such as this.  Now that we've determined if you should wear your polo tucked or untucked, perhaps we can have several pages of who gives a crap.

[Spike]

^ Hey it matters to some people.  Thanks for posting and not providing any informative insight. 

[lordmonar]

That's the polo shirt mentality - "I wear it because (choose one)"

• I hate uniforms
• I wear it instead of a uniform
• I don't have to conform to anything because it's not a uniform
• I don't have to do it, you're not the boss of me
• [Redacted] you - I'm playing your game by wearing this stupid shirt, now get out of my way, I wanna go flying

I had a squadron in my group that wore them.  No problem - it was what they wanted as a unit and they all wore it.  But they insisted on wearing it untucked.  I confered with the squadron CC.  He told me that they weren't going to do it.  I removed their flying priviledges, froze promotions, and held up any awards, and they saw their error.  It only took three days.

You revoked flying privileges, promotions and awards of men and women who VOLUNTEER their time, money, and labor to help this country and its people because their commander decided that they should wear their polo shirts tucked out? You think they saw "their error"? I will argue that you punished everyone for the misguidance of one person, their squadron commander (who you should have replaced instead) and then proceeded to punish them all while you should have just punished the commander.

You think this makes you just or a good leader? Perhaps the uniform wear of that unit was wrong. I would admit that their commander's behavior was wrong too. However.., IMHO, your behavior as a person who is supposed to be a leader was much worse. Clearly shows you trying to flex your imaginary CAP muscle and reinforce your ego.

Threatening volunteers and denying their promotions, flying "privileges", and awards isn't going to motivate them to do better. It simply reiterates that you can do that if you want to. That's not a good CAP lesson. It's very indicative of oh so many Seniors in this organization though.

I think next time you should deal with the issue appropriately, between commanders and ONLY commanders as THEY are the ones responsible for their decisions and the decisions of their members and try to weigh in the situation. Does lack of training and loss of membership because of ego wars merit the problem itself? When the issue is of untucked polos, I think it does not.

Definiton of good leader:  One who accomplishes the mission.

Coolective punishment works.....It sucks to be one of the guys who was in regs and got screwed anyway but there is only so much you can do.

If a commander says "I ain't gonna do it!  So there!"  Getting his whole squadron pissed at him is one way to get him back into line.   If they don't want to play the game then take their toys away!

Brining a leader to task for getting the job done is as stupid as someone jepordising the organisation over a stupid shirt!

[Gunner C]

A commander that passes a gutcheck. Nice. Where's your group, Gunner? I want in.

Too many people say "I'm a volunteer!" or "We're only volunteers!". As if that's a legitimate reason to do whatever you want. People cease to be volunteers the day they do so.

I don't care if you're getting paid or not, you "volunteer" to be part of something. Show some conviction and do it. Or don't. Paid status has nothing to with it. If you can't, or won't, then leave.

Yes, I know, there are times you just can't do something. Can't leave work in the middle of the day for a mission? I get that. Stuck at home with children that you're taking care of? Not a problem. The good commanders understand that, too. But when it somes to showing up to a function that you regularly attend in an appropriate uniform, there's no excuse.

Glad to see that there's a commander out there that believes that command, even in a volunteer organization,  is something to take seriously.

Thanks, but I left command about 5 years ago and the group was deactivated a year later.  It was a great unit - I had a real love for every member and cadet.  They just got a bit raucous from time to time.  I haven't seen a better unit since then.  I'm proud to be a former member of that group.

[Gunner C]

That's the polo shirt mentality - "I wear it because (choose one)"

• I hate uniforms
• I wear it instead of a uniform
• I don't have to conform to anything because it's not a uniform
• I don't have to do it, you're not the boss of me
• [Redacted] you - I'm playing your game by wearing this stupid shirt, now get out of my way, I wanna go flying

I had a squadron in my group that wore them.  No problem - it was what they wanted as a unit and they all wore it.  But they insisted on wearing it untucked.  I confered with the squadron CC.  He told me that they weren't going to do it.  I removed their flying priviledges, froze promotions, and held up any awards, and they saw their error.  It only took three days.

You revoked flying privileges, promotions and awards of men and women who VOLUNTEER their time, money, and labor to help this country and its people because their commander decided that they should wear their polo shirts tucked out? You think they saw "their error"? I will argue that you punished everyone for the misguidance of one person, their squadron commander (who you should have replaced instead) and then proceeded to punish them all while you should have just punished the commander.

You think this makes you just or a good leader? Perhaps the uniform wear of that unit was wrong. I would admit that their commander's behavior was wrong too. However.., IMHO, your behavior as a person who is supposed to be a leader was much worse. Clearly shows you trying to flex your imaginary CAP muscle and reinforce your ego.

Threatening volunteers and denying their promotions, flying "privileges", and awards isn't going to motivate them to do better. It simply reiterates that you can do that if you want to. That's not a good CAP lesson. It's very indicative of oh so many Seniors in this organization though.

I think next time you should deal with the issue appropriately, between commanders and ONLY commanders as THEY are the ones responsible for their decisions and the decisions of their members and try to weigh in the situation. Does lack of training and loss of membership because of ego wars merit the problem itself? When the issue is of untucked polos, I think it does not.

Definiton of good leader:  One who accomplishes the mission.

Coolective punishment works.....It sucks to be one of the guys who was in regs and got screwed anyway but there is only so much you can do.

If a commander says "I ain't gonna do it!  So there!"  Getting his whole squadron pissed at him is one way to get him back into line.   If they don't want to play the game then take their toys away!

Brining a leader to task for getting the job done is as stupid as someone jepordising the organisation over a stupid shirt!

Honestly, it wasn't collective punishment.  The whole unit was behind it.  I don't believe in punishing the innocent. 

[Cherokeepilot]

Folks........
We need to remember that CAP is not a uniform service.  The socalled uniforms are merely costumes which are relavent to the extent that Amn Red Cross workers wear vests at their events and disaster events.

There is nothing about this to get all hot and bothered. 
73s

[dogboy]

TShirt must be worn tucked in by men unless heat
conditions on the flight line require additional air circulation.

It's over 90 degrees in our Squadron HQ on Summer evenings. Why is the heat condition exception limited to the flight line?

[afgeo4]

That's the polo shirt mentality - "I wear it because (choose one)"

• I hate uniforms
• I wear it instead of a uniform
• I don't have to conform to anything because it's not a uniform
• I don't have to do it, you're not the boss of me
• [Redacted] you - I'm playing your game by wearing this stupid shirt, now get out of my way, I wanna go flying

I had a squadron in my group that wore them.  No problem - it was what they wanted as a unit and they all wore it.  But they insisted on wearing it untucked.  I confered with the squadron CC.  He told me that they weren't going to do it.  I removed their flying priviledges, froze promotions, and held up any awards, and they saw their error.  It only took three days.

You revoked flying privileges, promotions and awards of men and women who VOLUNTEER their time, money, and labor to help this country and its people because their commander decided that they should wear their polo shirts tucked out? You think they saw "their error"? I will argue that you punished everyone for the misguidance of one person, their squadron commander (who you should have replaced instead) and then proceeded to punish them all while you should have just punished the commander.

You think this makes you just or a good leader? Perhaps the uniform wear of that unit was wrong. I would admit that their commander's behavior was wrong too. However.., IMHO, your behavior as a person who is supposed to be a leader was much worse. Clearly shows you trying to flex your imaginary CAP muscle and reinforce your ego.

Threatening volunteers and denying their promotions, flying "privileges", and awards isn't going to motivate them to do better. It simply reiterates that you can do that if you want to. That's not a good CAP lesson. It's very indicative of oh so many Seniors in this organization though.

I think next time you should deal with the issue appropriately, between commanders and ONLY commanders as THEY are the ones responsible for their decisions and the decisions of their members and try to weigh in the situation. Does lack of training and loss of membership because of ego wars merit the problem itself? When the issue is of untucked polos, I think it does not.

Definiton of good leader:  One who accomplishes the mission.

Coolective punishment works.....It sucks to be one of the guys who was in regs and got screwed anyway but there is only so much you can do.

If a commander says "I ain't gonna do it!  So there!"  Getting his whole squadron pissed at him is one way to get him back into line.   If they don't want to play the game then take their toys away!

Brining a leader to task for getting the job done is as stupid as someone jepordising the organisation over a stupid shirt!

Actually Capt. Harris, please check your cadets' leadership books because that's NOT the definition of the word "leader".

Not even close.

[afgeo4]

That's the polo shirt mentality - "I wear it because (choose one)"

• I hate uniforms
• I wear it instead of a uniform
• I don't have to conform to anything because it's not a uniform
• I don't have to do it, you're not the boss of me
• [Redacted] you - I'm playing your game by wearing this stupid shirt, now get out of my way, I wanna go flying

I had a squadron in my group that wore them.  No problem - it was what they wanted as a unit and they all wore it.  But they insisted on wearing it untucked.  I confered with the squadron CC.  He told me that they weren't going to do it.  I removed their flying priviledges, froze promotions, and held up any awards, and they saw their error.  It only took three days.

You revoked flying privileges, promotions and awards of men and women who VOLUNTEER their time, money, and labor to help this country and its people because their commander decided that they should wear their polo shirts tucked out? You think they saw "their error"? I will argue that you punished everyone for the misguidance of one person, their squadron commander (who you should have replaced instead) and then proceeded to punish them all while you should have just punished the commander.

You think this makes you just or a good leader? Perhaps the uniform wear of that unit was wrong. I would admit that their commander's behavior was wrong too. However.., IMHO, your behavior as a person who is supposed to be a leader was much worse. Clearly shows you trying to flex your imaginary CAP muscle and reinforce your ego.

Threatening volunteers and denying their promotions, flying "privileges", and awards isn't going to motivate them to do better. It simply reiterates that you can do that if you want to. That's not a good CAP lesson. It's very indicative of oh so many Seniors in this organization though.

I think next time you should deal with the issue appropriately, between commanders and ONLY commanders as THEY are the ones responsible for their decisions and the decisions of their members and try to weigh in the situation. Does lack of training and loss of membership because of ego wars merit the problem itself? When the issue is of untucked polos, I think it does not.

Definiton of good leader:  One who accomplishes the mission.

Coolective punishment works.....It sucks to be one of the guys who was in regs and got screwed anyway but there is only so much you can do.

If a commander says "I ain't gonna do it!  So there!"  Getting his whole squadron pissed at him is one way to get him back into line.   If they don't want to play the game then take their toys away!

Brining a leader to task for getting the job done is as stupid as someone jepordising the organisation over a stupid shirt!

Honestly, it wasn't collective punishment.  The whole unit was behind it.  I don't believe in punishing the innocent.

Gunner, unit commanders exist to take responsibility for the actions of their subordinates and themselves. It's one of the reasons why we have the chain of command and span of control. In a healthy leadership structure, it is the commander who is responsible for compliance with regulations. It is also the commander who is held responsible. If the commander isn't doing the job right, he/she is to be replaced with someone who will.  That is the said unit commander should have been:
1. Counseled (properly, with an LOR if need be).
2. Relieved (and replaced with someone who understands the regs and will insist on them being followed).

With the commander as stupid as this one was, there must have been many other issues of disrespect for authority and the regulations. I don't believe that this was an isolated incident. I also don't believe that ALL members suddenly decided that they'll break the regs. I believe CAP isn't a democracy. There is no voting for this stuff.

Fire the CC. Replace him/her with one who is capable. PROBLEM SOLVED

Start "Showing them who's boss" and you'll lose the unit, the group and the mission (actually, sounds like that's exactly what happened in the end).

[Eclipse]

I'm of two minds on this, and as usual I suspect Gunner's intention and even action were spot-on.

It all depends on where the median of uniform wear and performance is.  Its been made quite clear to me by those on this board and others that while uniform wear is an indicator of attention to detail, there needs to be some command latitude in regards to the "hammer". (i.e. things like wearing Gore-Tex before it was approved, badges that aren't on the list, or the inability to use a ruler when setting up a service coat are overt "choices" made by a member, which is different from hammering an MP for rolling his sleeves on a hot flight line after his 4th sortie 1000 miles from home).

If a unit is otherwise performing to expectations and this is the only thing he can find to pick on, then there's a some room to call "avian poop!" on something which is meaningless in grand scheme.

However if the unit is under-performing in general, this is a good way to show that even the smallest detail is not too small for attention.

There is also the issue of picking your battles. 

I don't have time for the "we're all volunteers so therefore I don't have to bother with 'x' mentality..."   If I think its important, the members will either do it, or be held accountable. However few units I have ever encountered are so squared away at the macro level that whether polo shirts are tucked in or not deserves anything more than a side comment by the commander.

[Rotorhead]

Folks........
We need to remember that CAP is not a uniform service.  The socalled uniforms are merely costumes which are relavent to the extent that Amn Red Cross workers wear vests at their events and disaster events.

There is nothing about this to get all hot and bothered. 
73s

They are uniforms, not costumes, at least as far as the USAF is concerned.

I'll defer to the USAF, not you, on this issue.

Your post sounds like you're part of the "I'm just a volunteer, I don't need to follow rules" brigade.

[SilverEagle2]

^^ :clap: :clap: :clap:

[Hawk200]

Folks........
We need to remember that CAP is not a uniform service.  The socalled uniforms are merely costumes which are relavent to the extent that Amn Red Cross workers wear vests at their events and disaster events.

There is nothing about this to get all hot and bothered. 
73s

No, they are not costumes. At all. Rules, regulations, manuals, etc. exist for a reason. They aren't meant to give the appearance of "playing military".

With the ideas that it doesn't matter that a shirt be tucked in, what happens when someone shows up in blues without tucking a shirt in? What if someone doesn't feel like wearing tapes on their BDU's, or wearing a yellow shirt under it? What line exists where it's OK, and at what point is it wrong? I would think that everything stated should be followed. But I'm wondering how many feel that non-compliance is acceptable to a point.

[Eclipse]

With the ideas that it doesn't matter that a shirt be tucked in, what happens when someone shows up in blues without tucking a shirt in? What if someone doesn't feel like wearing tapes on their BDU's, or wearing a yellow shirt under it? What line exists where it's OK, and at what point is it wrong? I would think that everything stated should be followed. But I'm wondering how many feel that non-compliance is acceptable to a point.

There's a chasm of difference between not tucking in a golf shirt, which has at least one written exception, and not tucking in the shirt of a dress uniform.

As to the color of t-shirts, we've got activities all over the place, some attended by NHQ commanders and staff, that wear all sorts of different colors, so we already know where the line is there.

[Cherokeepilot]

Folks.........

They are not regulations until they are published in the Federal Register by the USC.  Since we are not UCMJ then we are under USC.  The socalled regs are nothing more than not for profit corporate by laws put together by corporate officers who are not elected to their posts.

For crying out loud, the shutdown of a squadron gets into the very worst conduct possible for a volunteer organization of any type.  This threat conduct indicates very poor leadership skills.  In another country situation, such officers usually had a grenade rolled under their cot.  I just hated having to be the one cleaning up the mess. 

Did anyone just try asking???

73s

[Rotorhead]

Folks.........

They are not regulations until they are published in the Federal Register by the USC.  Since we are not UCMJ then we are under USC.  The socalled regs are nothing more than not for profit corporate by laws put together by corporate officers who are not elected to their posts.

Wrong again.

Despite your self-chosen definition that only things in the CFR are regulations, these are, in fact regulations.

From Merriam-Webster: "Regulation: 2.  A principle, rule, or law designed to control or govern conduct."

Stop trying to bend CAP to be what you want it to be.

[heliodoc]

Yep

CAP does not have UCMJ.  Uniform wear should be corrected, but did i read here about a shutdown of a Sqdn?

Hammering in CAP.  This place is wildly out of control about uniform wear,m which in reality should be corrected.

CAP leadership= hammering...REAL SWELL 

Isn't there some REAL CAP training going on  rather than woooooorying about that fr9ickin polo shirt?

CAP brought that one and until you folks realize its here to stay and the hammering CAP does carries really no weight,,then keep on keepin on

Closing a squadron down DOES show POOR leadership skills.  It basically indicates NO people skills, NO problem solving skills, etc

Hey but I am a pilot and a CAP volunteer and I do know how to tuck my polo shirt in. 

ALLL these uniform threads indicate a LACK of real CAP proficiency or otherwise REAL training.  Worrying about a 40.00 Vanguard rag, really is impressive.  It is even more impressive when 30 to 60 year old with no RM training.....do not know how to wear a 40.00 rag  SHEEEEEEEEEESH