grey epilates

[Pylon]

Knock off the personal attacks now - both between posters and against NHQ staffers.

[Major Carrales]

I'd like to point out that the primary complaint in this thread is that the CAP epaulet sleeve differs from the USAF epaulet sleeve.  Allow me to remind certain folks....

CAP is not the USAF and vice versa

However, if you really want to wear the Air Force bling, I'd remind you that the Corporate uniform allows you to wear the actual air force epaulet (you just have to look like a cross between a USAF Officer and a civilian pilot).

NO, Ollie, you got the thread wrong.

The complaint was not that the epaulet sleeves are different, we all know that.

The complaint was that the QUALITY of our epaulet sleeve was far less than the epaulet sleeve used by the Air Force and made by the same manufacturer.

Unless your point is that we are unworthy of high-quality uniform items.  If that is the case, you are truly a pathetic individual.

I just ordered a set of epaulet sleeves.  While they may not be military specs, they are also not of "poor" quality. 

My point was that if you want milspec items, wear the Corporate uniform.

But then again, I'm simply a "pathetic individual."  Perhaps you'd like to draw up a 2a to that effect so that my new status can be reflected on eServices, seeing as how you are above common courtesy.

Again, we have the CAP inferiority complex inherent in the comments that have frustrated both of you, Ollie and Kach. 

The gray should marks in question are not as bad as everyone makes them out.  I have several pair of them from both the Hock and Vanguard and they, when properly maintained, look professional.  the issue stems from people feeling all CAP items are inferior.  It is a manifestation of peoples wish to wear USAF type shoulder marks, but being denied.  They then become overly critical of the CAP ones.

If one believes that our should marks are supposed to look exactly like USAF only gray and with CAP embroidery, then they are (in their opinion) wrong.  However, if one understands that they are CAP shoulder marks and not USAF ones, then this whole conversation is moot.

[Major Carrales]

Knock off the personal attacks now - both between posters and against NHQ staffers.

Agreed, ad hominem attacks serve no purpose here.  The attacks on CAPNHQ staff is also very uncalled for and unbecoming.

[NCRblues]

My god, that got nasty fast did it not? Come on folks lets be civil to each other, i guess the core values dont apply here. Its a discussion board not a slander board. we are supposed to be officers, set the example, and we wonder why cadets sometimes act like they do

[Major Carrales]

My god, that got nasty fast did it not? Come on folks lets be civil to each other, i guess the core values dont apply here. Its a discussion board not a slander board. we are supposed to be officers, set the example, and we wonder why cadets sometimes act like they do

My dear friend, there are some that think that things like "Core Values" are hokey, the sort of hokum that we have come to expect from a world where millions of dollars go into selling toilet cleaners, charcoal and anything else on a 30 second commercial. 

However, if we are to be worth our metal, we should resolve to keep the core values.  To make them into "corps values," those that are shared by the body of the organization.

If we adhere to that...and live the mantra INTEGRITY, EXCELLENCE, VOLUNTEER SERVICE and RESPECT; then you and I will never have to make posts like this one.

[NCRblues]

I was so frustrated by what was put here, that is constantly put here that I didn't even think about core/corps. The way some treat other volunteers is appalling, this is why I left cap the first time....

[DrJbdm]

  Major C,  I must disagree with you on this issue. The CAP shoulder marks should be of the same quality, and look just like USAF ones but only in grey. After all, they are made by the same folks who make the USAF marks.

  By not having the same quality shoulder marks as the USAF then that is in a sense saying we are not worthy enough as CAP officers to have high quality items such as these. I believe that if we are going to wear an Air Force uniform then we have an obligation to look as professional as possible and as close to Air Force standard as we possibly can.

   I know that there are people in CAP who believe that what we have is perfectly acceptable, but there are also people like me who believe that we have a right to have high quality CAP items made in milspec fashion.  What we have now is not even close to the quality of what we should have. But everyone may have a different outlook and thats ok.

[Major Carrales]

I was so frustrated by what was put here, that is constantly put here that I didn't even think about core/corps. The way some treat other volunteers is appalling, this is why I left cap the first time....

It begins with us.  There are times we will slip a little one Civility, 'tis the nature of people to want to give into a good ole fashioned  cursing or rant.  I have resisted it many times.

Should we call people out for it?  I would normally, in the governance of society say no, however, in CAP we have taken an oath at application...

(READ CAREFULLY BEFORE SIGNING FRONT OF APPLICATION!)

I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that:

I understand membership in Civil Air Patrol is a privilege, not a right, and that membership is on a year-to-year basis subject to annual renewal by CAP.  I further understand failure to meet membership eligibility criteria will result in automatic termination at any time.

I understand only Civil Air Patrol corporate officers are authorized to obligate funds, equipment, or services.

I understand Civil Air Patrol is not liable for loss or damage to my personal property when operated for or by Civil Air Patrol.

I voluntarily subscribe to the objectives and purposes of Civil Air Patrol and agree to be guided by the CAP constitution and Bylaws and comply with CAP rules and regulations as from time to time may be amended or promulgated.

I agree to abide by the decisions of those in authority of Civil Air Patrol

I certify that all the information on this application is presently correct and any false statement may be cause to deny membership.  I understand I am obligated to notify Civil Air Patrol if there are any changes to the background information on the front of this form and further understand that failure to report such changes may be grounds for membership termination.

I understand that this Oath of Application is a part of this application for senior membership in Civil Air Patrol and that my signature on the form constitutes evidence of that understanding.

The "decisions of those in authority of Civil Air Patrol" is to have in  place the CORE VALUES.  They are not just for cadets...an item on a test...they are for us all to live by.

[Major Carrales]

  Major C,  I must disagree with you on this issue. The CAP shoulder marks should be of the same quality, and look just like USAF ones but only in grey. After all, they are made by the same folks who make the USAF marks.

  By not having the same quality shoulder marks as the USAF then that is in a sense saying we are not worthy enough as CAP officers to have high quality items such as these. I believe that if we are going to wear an Air Force uniform then we have an obligation to look as professional as possible and as close to Air Force standard as we possibly can.

   I know that there are people in CAP who believe that what we have is perfectly acceptable, but there are also people like me who believe that we have a right to have high quality CAP items made in milspec fashion.  What we have now is not even close to the quality of what we should have. But everyone may have a different outlook and thats ok.

You are, of course, free to disagree.  However, I think we agree more than you allude to.  I have not purchased CAP shoulder marks since I was first promoted, and two sets of them were given to my by a recently promoted Lt Col.  There are of excellent quality.  I have not made a recent purchase of CAP shoulder marks so may not see the effect mentioned.

It may just be an oversight at present.  It may be time to suggest up the channels that new insignia conform to some decided upon standard.   However, that would place two different sets of shoulder marks in "circulation."   I would consider the idea of having to replace the current shoulder marks with NEW CAP-SPEC an unnecessary expense.  One that would be reflected in the thousands of CAP Officers that would have to make this purchase...then, we would have to endure the countless threads here about the obvious "VANGUARD CONSPIRACY" that the actions resulted from. 

[SamFranklin]

I wonder if some of the CAP-specific accoutrements are of "so-so" quality simply because of economies of scale.

To produce a high quality item for a tiny market (How many Lt Col sleeves will you sell this year? SFO sleeves? Master Historian Badges?), the unit cost is apt to be pretty high. I'm glad that the contracting people found a vendor who can make accoutrements of satisfactory quality at an okay price. I'm glad they didn't try to duplicate "mil spec" because I don't want to pay 50% more just to satisfy a handful of nitpicky people on this board.

Also, lots of our items have no military equivalent. What is "mil spec" for a MLO badge?

Could it be that simple? Or is there really a conspiracy by NHQ employees to aggravate a handful of captalkers about the quality of epaulet sleeves, or whatever it is that the last person to edit Wikipedia calls them?

[Cecil DP]

It may just be an oversight at present.  It may be time to suggest up the channels that new insignia conform to some decided upon standard.   However, that would place two different sets of should marks in "circulation."   I would consider the idea of having to replace the current shoulder marks with NEW CAP-SPEC an unnecessary expense.  One that would be reflected in the thousands of CAP Officers that would have to make this purchase...then, we would have to endure the countless threads here about the obvious "VANGUARD CONSPIRACY" that the actions resulted from.  (qouted from Maj Corrales post).

The cost to change insignia would be relatively minor compared to the costs of other uniform items which have been mandated and than scraped after a couple of years. In addition there is no need to require  the new rank insignia until one is either promoted or irrepairably ruins the current set. If the current insignia looks bad it can only reflect on the organization than the military standard should be adopted. I cannot imagine that National HQ didn't specify a standard or require that the grade insignia meet the AF standard in the first place. 

[Mustang]

Knock off the personal attacks now - both between posters and against NHQ staffers.

Agreed, ad hominem attacks serve no purpose here.  The attacks on CAPNHQ staff is also very uncalled for and unbecoming.

Pleaseohplease point out where anyone attacked the NHQ staff.  I double-dare ya.

[davidsinn]

   Yes, I typically use epaulet stiffiners and they help to a small degree. I just wish who ever designed these things would have just used mil-spec process.

   I suspect these are a high profit item for Vanguard, much cheaper to manufacture then regular Air Force mil-spec epaulets and sold for just as a high price point.

Sad.....but they used "CAP specs" when designing them.  Vanguard already uses very strict Government specifications on all of their other products.  It was NHQ that was so lax.  So if you want to blame anyone blame NHQ!!!

Agreed.  The lack of attention to detail in whomever approves this stuff--Susie Parker, I suspect--is appalling.

You did. Right there.

[Mustang]

That's not an attack in the slightest.

[Mustang]

I wonder if some of the CAP-specific accoutrements are of "so-so" quality simply because of economies of scale.

To produce a high quality item for a tiny market (How many Lt Col sleeves will you sell this year? SFO sleeves? Master Historian Badges?), the unit cost is apt to be pretty high.

I dunno, the stuff produced for exclusive use by the generals and the NEC always seems to turn out pretty nice. 

[Gunner C]

Having worked for a time in the clothing industry, I can see how we get a different "grade" of sleeves than "Ma Blue".  There is a slippage in quality of manufacturing and materials.  This is simply due to us being a smaller customer.  I believe this was mentioned above.  We could have Vanguard supply us with the same quality as USAF insignia, but the price would rise.  When I got Lt Col sleeves (at a neighboring AFB), I was shocked not only how much better they were than the CAP sleeves but also shocked at the price.  In fact, there were two "grades" of sleeves, the difference was the style of the embroidery of the leaves.  I believe the thread was of a much higher quality.  I had money burning a hole in my pocket, so I got the "high octane" variety.

Uniform items are expensive enough.  Let's face it, we're getting what the market can stand.  They're fine for our purposes.