Specialty Waiver for Promotion

[stimpy4242]

I want to see if anyone else has experience with this process.  Specifically educational and professional background experience, NOT MILITARY experience.

I have attended over 300 hours of national curriculum classes for the fire department, many of which are accredited for post graduate credits.  I also have a MS degree as well as a doctoral student.  I am an advanced practice paramedic as well as a private pilot.  I just attended SLS and sat thinking that it was SO BASIC and this is something I did in the fire department 10 years ago.  Since then I have taken Fire Officer Courses up to levels of managing entire fire departments.

I am seeking the rank of Capt.  Given my ability to provide transcripts and documentation for all the above does this seem reasonable or difficult to achieve?

[arajca]

Paramedic and/or Private Pilot will get you 2d Lt. FD classes don't get you anything. Depending on what your degree is in, you MAY get something, but not Capt.

Medical Doctor will get Capt. CFII/ATP will get Capt. Fire Officer will get SM.

If your commander feels you are truly exceptional and are greatly contributing to CAP's missions, you may apply for a promotion waiver. That process can take a while (I've heard up to a year).

[stimpy4242]

that is interesting, the classes I have taken far blow away this stuff here and yet still not worth anything.  I did read that health care professionals with BS can get 1st Lt.  Interesting how a 2 year RN program is supposedly better than a 4 year advanced care paramedic program.  I mean as a Advanced Practice Paramedic we can diagnose and treat, prescribe in urban settings, suture, intubate, perform surgical airways, all tasks RNs do not come across.  I am not disregarding the RN, I am trying to argue for the paramedic.  I am sure there has to be some breakdown.  Especially if curriculum can be provided to show equivalency or better when compared to things such as SLS, CLC, UCC...

It also seems that I could qualify for a Aerospace Education Officer Capt since I have a MS and 4 years as assistant faculty for the University of Maryland as Emergency Services Instructor.  Seems like there are many things that might apply, where to start?

[IceNine]

Best place to start is by talking to your unit commander.  It is then a process of making a case to the wing commander to prove that your skills are of enough value that you deserve a special appointment to the grade of Captain.

Your place to start it to have your unit commander process a CAPF 2 notated for special promotion to Capt.

Provide the certificates that you speak of and as much detail on why this should qualify as possible.

I don't think you'll have too much of an issue assuming you are using the education you have to better serve your unit and the Civil Air Patrol.

Good luck

[Airrace]

If you can provide documentation then provide it to your local commander and see what it gets you. I do know that if your commander feels you are truly exceptional and are greatly contributing to CAP's missions, you may apply for a promotion waiver.

[stimpy4242]

I appreciate the information.

[arajca]

Remember, Paramedics (of all flavors) still fall under the general "EMT" category. A nurse with an associates degree is still a nurse.

CAP does not accept ANY training - even military - as equivilent to SLS, CLC, or UCC, since these courses deal specifically with CAP and how it functions. Region and National Staff Colleges, on the other hand, do accept military PME as equivilent.

Honestly though, anyone who comes in and insists on advanced promotion and getting non-standard (in CAP regs) training accepted in place of CAP specific training tends to create a barrier between themselves and the rest of us.

[IceNine]

^ Not for you to decide, and not the question at hand.

The process is as above, and only your chain can decide if you are deserving.

[stimpy4242]

CAP does not accept ANY training - even military - as equivilent to SLS, CLC, or UCC, since these courses deal specifically with CAP and how it functions. Region and National Staff Colleges, on the other hand, do accept military PME as equivilent.

I think you need to update yourself, I am sitting here in SLS right now and they even just mentioned that there are equivalents that ARE recognized and accepted for SLS, CLC and UCC.  Now its possible the instructors are wrong, but if they are it continues to argue my own "philosophical point" that there are other ways to achieve something, since even the "knowlede experts" are presenting wrong information.

Also, there is no general EMT category.  I would expect that the goal of the listed healthcare professions was to acertain the knowledge and experience of individuals.  I believe the suggestion to make your best case is the clear choice.

[RADIOMAN015]

CAP in some ways mirrors the AF in initial appointments as far as rank goes.  Taking fire courses wouldn't get you any rank in the AF either.  HOWEVER, once in if you were in the appropriae specialty, it would help you in your advancement. 

Frankly, I think that we should bring back the Warrant Officer grades for ANYONE that doesn't have a college degree.
Some of the volunteers walking around with officer grades, in wanna bee af style uniforms are a real detriment to properly representing us in the program overall!!

In fact I sometime wonder if we should adopt the same rank insignias as the cadet program and either make it a different color or  have an "S" on the sholder boards etc...

No matter what your rank in CAP, IF you present yourself well and other volunteers get to know you as being a professional/expert in any area, you will be respected for that!
Remember we just don't want to pay you all that money until we know what you can do
RM

[IceNine]

They are in fact wrong. 

The only PME equivalent is CAPSOC, RSC, and NSC

There are no other options for SLS/CLC or UCC, TLC.  Check out 50-17 before you start directing all that rage about us being wrong.

Second, there is a category for Paramedic AND other healthcare technicians (EMT's, CNA's etc)  under the healthcare mission related skill promotion.

[stimpy4242]

They are in fact wrong. 

Second, there is a category for Paramedic AND other healthcare technicians (EMT's, CNA's etc)  under the healthcare mission related skill promotion.

First part, you are right they are wrong, but that is my point exactly.  Here are higher officers teaching SLS to newer people and they are teaching wrong information.  How is that right?

On the second point, you are misquoted.  In the r 160 the word paramedic is NEVER mentioned.  It says healthcare technicians (Emts, cnas)

On the form 35-5 it does refer to paramedic.

Now if you are trying to tell me that an EMT course which consists of 131 hours ( I know I teach it) and a four year paramedic program (i know i teach some of it)ending in a BS degree are the same thing, then that is really disappointing and perhaps it shows more about CAP then those people in those roles.

In addition, I believe that if RN is considered higher than paramedic, its because no one actually bothered to look at the curriculum.  The scope of practice for a paramedic goes well beyond an RN.  They are able to diagnose and treat medical conditions, choose medications without a physicians direct order, provide emergency airway skills such as surgical cricothyroidotomies, pericardial centesis, and more.  That seems like that person must have a wealth of knowledge and training even beyond their initial schooling.  I am not suggesting that paramedics out of the box do these things, but may be cleared by their Medical Directors, such as ours, to perform such tasks while NOT under their direct or even close supervision.

I do not mean to argue those specific paramedic skills, but that peraps it can be justified or that the current list needs to be updated to include more.

Again I plan to do what was suggested and simply talk with my commander and see what we can do.

Let me ask a new question, which might continue to argue and prove my point.

What is the purpose behind giving recognition for prior experience?  Why is there a list of specialty waiver reasons?  What do those people already have because of who they are?

[IceNine]

I'm misquoted in nothing the only reg that I care about when it comes to promotions is the reg on promotions.

I don't CARE how many hours of what you have. If its not listed then you don't qualify, unless your commander is willing to fight for your qualification.

It has nothing to do with hours or teaching or how much your fecal matter smells like roses.  If its not recognized its special.

Do what I said above and have a good shot at the promotion.  Don't and continue to complain about how awesome you are but can't be recognized.

[Flying Pig]

Just start out as a 2Lt and enjoy the ride.  I had a whole list of pilot, military and law enforcement qualifications and was a Tactical EMT on a SWAT Team.  Who cares really.  I got brought in as a 1Lt because of my Fixed Wing and Helo Commercial Pilot ratings.  It will all be OK.  Just have fun.

[SilverEagle2]

I am seeking the rank of Capt

One question...why?

[Chicago_Pilot]

Just start out as a 2Lt and enjoy the ride.  I had a whole list of pilot, military and law enforcement qualifications and was a Tactical EMT on a SWAT Team.  Who cares really.  I got brought in as a 1Lt because of my Fixed Wing and Helo Commercial Pilot ratings.  It will all be OK.  Just have fun.

I have to agree with taking the long road.  I have been in CAP for 6 months.  I am a CFI and Instrument Ground Instructor.  According to CAPR 35-5 Section D, I could be a Captain based on either one of those qualifications.  I have flow 0-rides for cadets, worked an encampment, participated in fundraisers, become ES qualified, and finished Level 1, SLS, ECI-13 and Yeager.  I also have a duty position in the squadron.

I am a Senior Member without grade.  I still get paid the same as everyone else...

[PHall]

stimpy, the first question that is going to be asked when your Squadron Commander puts you in for the waiver will be "how will this benefit CAP?"

[arajca]

Also, there is no general EMT category.  I would expect that the goal of the listed healthcare professions was to acertain the knowledge and experience of individuals.  I believe the suggestion to make your best case is the clear choice.

All EMT's use the same general abreviation - EMT. Suffixes are added to donote level -B, -I, -P, but all are still Emergency Medical Techicians. Even your sig says you're an EMT (NREMTP). CAP treats all EMTs the same.

[Spike]

I have got to say, unless CAP starts a fire rescue specialty track....then you are going to be a Senior Member for 6 months and then eligible for promotion to 2nd Lt. 

CAP is different than the Volunteer Fire Dept.  You will understand that as you spend a few months going to meetings. 

My question though is why?  What is the reasoning for a special appointment? 

To be perfectly honest, there are many that could have started out as Captains, because of career, education etc., but decided to go through the program like most other new members to CAP. 

You will feel better about promotions if you know you earned them, and did not just have one "given" to you. 

[Spike]

I just attended SLS and sat thinking that it was SO BASIC and this is something I did in the fire department 10 years ago. 

I also wanted to mention that , as "basic" as SLS may seem to you, it is CAP specific.  The course deals specifically where you fit in within your unit, and where the unit fits in with CAP and the Air Force.  It is an introduction to CAP.  So....why did your Fire Department conduct a CAP specific course 10 years ago?

Ya.....seems like you may have to much to offer, and the way CAP is setup may not be able to accept it all.  I would reevaluate why you joined CAP (resume, kid in the program etc.) and see if CAP as a whole is the right organization for you. 

[stimpy4242]

As an additional note for everyone who thinks I am trying to skip everything.  So far, joining in June, I have finished level 1, finished Mission Scanner, Gotten capf 5, started ES, finished Chuck Yeager, Finished ECI 13, finished SLS (today), finished capt exams 116, both 117s.

Teaching first aid and CPR for my squadron.  So, please DON'T assume I am trying to avoid anything. I just want whatever is there for me to have.  Like I said I have the MS and 3 years as a university of MD faculty and that qualifies for Capt rating too.  So I know I deserve that for sure.  I think I can argue all the various things I have to offer to get the position that they allow.

As far as the people so far who are already attacking me asking why I joined and how it fits me...the same way the volunteer fire service fits me.  I enjoy rescue stuff and that is a CAP mission.  I don't want to wear a CAP uniform, I have no interest in trying to pretend I am an air force officer in the eyes of others.  So for those who think I want Captain so I can wear it on my shoulder, think again as well.  You will only find me wearing the CAP Polo and grey pants.  I don't need to prove to others what I have and can do, I know what I have and I use it to help the people in need.  That is what is important!  That is why we are here.  Let's not forget that.

Also I did receive a message of support from the Nursing Officer for MDWG.  However the message mentioned something that was important for me to note.  My original question was about rank, not trying to substitute something for SLS/CLC/UCC.  I made mention that during my SLS this weekend they said there were like two approved substitutions.  Just wanted to clarify.

[NC Hokie]

I don't want to wear a CAP uniform, I have no interest in trying to pretend I am an air force officer in the eyes of others.  So for those who think I want Captain so I can wear it on my shoulder, think again as well.  You will only find me wearing the CAP Polo and grey pants.  I don't need to prove to others what I have and can do, I know what I have and I use it to help the people in need.  That is what is important!  That is why we are here.  Let's not forget that.

This is not intended as a criticism, so please do not take it that way.  That said, why are you pushing for an advanced grade if you're content to wear the polo shirt and focus on the ES mission?

[stimpy4242]

As mentioned, it is for myself.  It is something that I am entitled to, so I would like that.  I am also entitled to wear the uniform, but I don't want that.  So its a personal thing for me.  Thats all.  This is a big stretch, but lets say you are independently wealthy and you hit the lotto for 2k, do you reject the money just because you have 10mil in the bank?  Probably not....

Thats all.

[arajca]

As an additional note for everyone who thinks I am trying to skip everything.  So far, joining in June, I have finished level 1, finished Mission Scanner, Gotten capf 5, started ES, finished Chuck Yeager, Finished ECI 13, finished SLS (today), finished capt exams 116, both 117s.

Great! That information does change what is implied by your inital post.

Teaching first aid and CPR for my squadron.  So, please DON'T assume I am trying to avoid anything. I just want whatever is there for me to have.  Like I said I have the MS and 3 years as a university of MD faculty and that qualifies for Capt rating too.  So I know I deserve that for sure.  I think I can argue all the various things I have to offer to get the position that they allow.

Are you serving as an Aerospace Education Officer? The qualifications you are listing apply only to Aerospace Education Officers.

e. Aerospace Education Officers. A CAP aerospace education officer is an officer serving in an aerospace education position at any level of CAP. For the purpose of promotion under the professional appointments method the aerospace education officer must also be fully certified as a professional educator (teacher, counselor, or administrator) by the state department of education in the member's state of residence or have served as a college or university professor (full, associate or assistant) or other faculty member.

Doing other instruction does not qualifiy you for advanced promotion under that rule.

As far as the people so far who are already attacking me asking why I joined and how it fits me...the same way the volunteer fire service fits me.  I enjoy rescue stuff and that is a CAP mission.  I don't want to wear a CAP uniform, I have no interest in trying to pretend I am an air force officer in the eyes of others.  So for those who think I want Captain so I can wear it on my shoulder, think again as well.  You will only find me wearing the CAP Polo and grey pants.  I don't need to prove to others what I have and can do, I know what I have and I use it to help the people in need.  That is what is important!  That is why we are here.  Let's not forget that.

Again, your initial post implied you were looking for shoulder bling and thats all.

[PHall]

As mentioned, it is for myself.  It is something that I am entitled to, so I would like that.  I am also entitled to wear the uniform, but I don't want that.  So its a personal thing for me.  Thats all.  This is a big stretch, but lets say you are independently wealthy and you hit the lotto for 2k, do you reject the money just because you have 10mil in the bank?  Probably not....

Thats all.

Ahh, but nobody is entitled to any grade. You may be eligible to be promoted to that grade, but you definitely not entitled to it.

[stimpy4242]

so noted about the entitled for eligible.  Yes I realize that you need to be serving as an aerospace officer.

[Camas]

As mentioned, it is for myself.  It is something that I am entitled to, so I would like that. 

You're in this for yourself and you're entitled to grade? Your attitude disturbs me. While I commend you for your zeal in pursuing the professional opportunities mentioned in your earlier post I'd be looking for a team player who can fit in and make a significant contribution to the success of your unit. For the record I am a member of my wing awards and promotions committee. Those going up for promotions to captain and higher other than duty promotions are carefully scrutinized as to how their skills and qualifications add to the strength of their unit and not because they feel they're entitled to a promotion. I can only hope I'm wrong in my assessment of what you meant to say.

[stimpy4242]

I can only hope I'm wrong in my assessment of what you meant to say.

Did you not read my previous post, it wasn't deliberate to say entitled, i agree eligible is the word as my PREVIOUS POST says.

[LtCol057]

I've seen a few people mention trying to get a special promotion waiver, but no one has mentioned that you can get only 1 waiver during your entire CAP career. 

When I came into CAP as a senior member, I was also a practicing EMT-P.  Even tho the regs stated that I was eligible for 2Lt after Level 1/CPPT, the paperwork for promotion still had to go thru channels to NHQ. This was back in early 1990, before the squadron commanders became the promoting authority.  By the time paperwork was done, I had been a SM for 6 months.  I don't regret it one bit.  I really wish NHQ would do away with some of the accelerated promotion criteria. It's like the uniforms, there are too many different methods to get promoted.  I know of some former RM types that came into CAP and immediately wanted to become Lt Cols because that's what they were in military.  They were promoted and haven't done a thing since. Haven't attended any PD courses, haven't even completed Level 2.     Just my 2 cents worth.

[lordmonar]

Your statement is not supported in the regulations.

3-9. Exceptional Qualifications. In unusual cases, an exceptionally qualified member may be promoted to any CAP grade (not to include the general officer grade) where age, professional qualifications, and known value to CAP eminently qualify the member for such grade. In such cases, it must be evident that the member recommended has skills or background so unique and valuable to CAP as to eminently qualify him or her for promotion ahead of his or her peers. Areas of consideration are age, professional qualifications, unique business experience, association with other governmental or aviation agencies, educational background, community stature, civic endeavors, prior CAP service, etc. In such cases, the commander concerned must request a waiver of applicable promotion eligibility criteria through channels from the region commander or National Promotion Review Board as appropriate. See paragraph 1-8d for complete details on requesting waivers.

[stimpy4242]

lordmonar, sorry whose statement?

[flyerthom]

I want to see if anyone else has experience with this process.  Specifically educational and professional background experience, NOT MILITARY experience.

I have attended over 300 hours of national curriculum classes for the fire department, many of which are accredited for post graduate credits.  I also have a MS degree as well as a doctoral student.  I am an advanced practice paramedic as well as a private pilot.  I just attended SLS and sat thinking that it was SO BASIC and this is something I did in the fire department 10 years ago.  Since then I have taken Fire Officer Courses up to levels of managing entire fire departments.

I am seeking the rank of Capt.  Given my ability to provide transcripts and documentation for all the above does this seem reasonable or difficult to achieve?

I have a Bachelors as well as an RN and years as an EMT. I also carry certs as CEN, prehospital RN and CFRN. Within my scope are all the things you mention along with central lines except sutures. I did not get advanced grade.  Didn't hurt what I get from CAP anyway. I suppose I could have pushed the issue but as I said, I enjoy the program .
Rank isn't as important as what you get out of the program.    Take what you can get and dig in.

[MSG Mac]

Your experience as an instrucor at the U of Md's Fire academy, may enable you to be appointed to the grade of Captain. You are going to have to send a letter from the University, certifying your employment as an instructor and a copy of your Master's degree. Since this is a "Professional Appointment"under AEO you must also be assigned as an AEO. CAPF2 should be forwarded through channels to WIng and than on to National, If all goes right it will take about a month.

[Hawk200]

This one reminds me of a person that came to a meeting, stayed a while, and at the end of the meeting asked, "What can CAP do for me?".

Talked to him for awhile, but he didn't seem interested in making any contribution. Just wanted to know what was in it for him, and what rank he could get. Even thought that he'd be eligible for higher rank since he was aircrew.

By the time it was done, I discouraged him from returning. Wasn't hard, just let him know that he had to bring something to the table, but he just didn't see that.

[stimpy4242]

Wow I appreciate the positive message in the post above...you're right, I guess I don't have anything to offer.  Thank you for setting me straight.

[lordmonar]

lordmonar, sorry whose statement?

LtCol57's comment that you only get one waiver per career.

It is not in the regulation and I know of at least one that occured in FLWG in the last 5 years or so.

[stimpy4242]

Oh ok, yeah it doesn't make sense that you couldn't have more than one.

[IceNine]

You should step back and look at your responses so far.  As a unit commander I can tell you that while not phrased exactly how I would phrase them, these are the same questions you are going to be asked.

If you respond with the same flippant attitude you will probably be offered a seat in the back of the room and wind up waiting out the full TIG, at least that is how it would work in my unit.

A well thought out, emotionally detached, factual answer is going to get you the grade you deserve whether that equates to SM or Lt. Col is completely up to your responses, your unit commander ,and their willingness to present your case to the appropriate approving authorities.

[CadetProgramGuy]

It is of interest that in CAPR35-5.....

a. After initial appointment, professional personnel may be eligible for future promotions by satisfying the requirements outlined in paragraph 2-1, except:

(1) Health service personnel and legal officers are exempt from senior member training requirements after Level I.

[stimpy4242]

I did notice that, I wonder if you could infer that professional development wouldn't be necessary...

Anyhow, I realize my answers on a open forum are going to be worded differently then with my commander.  The forum allows for people to go on rants and raves and get yelled at...thats part of the fun of reading them.

[Spike]

Heck.  I was a 2d Lt in CAP for 4 years.  I did not care about rank at all, and it did not help me get my job done any bit better.  However, I did do a special Promotion, when I advanced in the reserves.  Being a CAP 2d Lt, and a National Guard CPT did seem somewhat weird to those around me.  Having Drill Weekend and wearing CPT, then turning around and Wearing 2d Lt.....confused some of my NCO full time staffers.

I could be a CAP Major now.  Man......here come those regrets........  

[AirAux]

Hopefully you have read CAPR-160 and understand how limited your role in CAP is as a Health Service Officer is.  Unfortunately you appear to have expended a lot of effort undergoing extensive education that did not benefit in like credentials.  If I understand correctly, you are licensed as an EMT-P.  Most EMT-P's have a year or so of specific training leading to their certification.  Your training with the fire department is not recognized as a need by CAP.  As such it has little to no value to CAP.  CAP limits medical care to victims as the most basic of first aid and stabilization.  CAP expects us to find them and get the professionals to them as quickly as possible.  There are many reasons for this and that is for another post.  Now, having read all of your posts, being a unit commander, being a medical officer, and being a legal officer, I would really be concerned with promoting you.  Based upon the information I have seen and my vast years of experience, I would place you in the area of being a loose cannon and you would have to prove yourself and worth to me before I would recommend you for promotion to anything.  Try not to take it personal, but that is my considered opinion.  If you are legit and worth promotion, you will receive it.  We are a group of professionals and take ourselves very seriously.  We expect you to do the same. 

[stimpy4242]

So just to clear you up, paramedics do four years of training ending in a BS...The new 160-1 actually allow for much more involvement on the behalf of the provider, at their own risk.  Before it said, like you said basic first aid, that has changed.

If you have read all my posts, you would know I haven't spent a lot of time for no credentials.  I have a Masters and almost done a Phd.  I feel pretty proud of those accomplishments.

[arajca]

So just to clear you up, paramedics do four years of training ending in a BS...

Depending on what state or program you are in. The program the local community college runs here lasts just over a year and does not earn a degree.

[stimpy4242]

Well they do operate under a medical director and each state is different on what they allow and require.  I am in MD: http://ehs.umbc.edu/

[AirAux]

Unfortunately, you are the first EMT-P I have run across that took 4 years of college to obtain same.  Most have done so with a year or less of training.  I also have a current EMT license.  I also am a doctor and a lawyer.  That said, the general consensus in both the medical and legal fields in CAP is that CAPR 160 is very limiting and if you do something in the field dumb, it exposes CAP to some very severe liability.  Therefore, it is not recommended to have medical personnel running around with suture kits and scalpels.  Again, based on personal experience, I would cast a suspicious eye on such an eager beaver.  Just remember, the commander you are asking to promote you has his reputation on the line and his butt will be in the ringer if you do something outside of the Reg's or embarrassing to CAP.  If you are legit and your desire is legit, slow down and find out what you can contribute to CAP and where and how you fit in.  After all, this isn't the coast guard aux..(Just for you RiverAux)..

[stimpy4242]

Here is an interesting question to the whole, limited practice, Maryland has a duty to act, some states don't, but Maryland does.  So if CAP doesn't want me acting and I am supposed to act, who gets sued?

[arajca]

How broad is your duty to act? Is it 24/7 regardless of whether your duty status? What if you're out of your medical director's area of responsibilty?

Legal details like these should be asked of YOUR WING's Legal Officer. Here we can give you a bunch of opinions, some informed, some not, but we (generally) do not have enough information to provide wing specific advice.

[stimpy4242]

Maryland has a statewide EMS System.  MIEMSS.  So we can operate anywhere in the state under our state protocols, additional procedures can be performed in specific areas based on that advanced program.  A duty to act is 24/7 not just while on duty.  Anytime you could be tied to having a medical license which the paramedics have, the EMTs have a certification they do not have a medical license in our state.

I will ask our wing legal advisor, in fact the MDWG nursing officer has already private messaged me for some details.

I am tired...going to bed

[AirAux]

As a lawyer, I could tell you, but then I would have to bill you.. Actually those are some of the problems in CAP.  I know you are licensed nationally, but are you licensed in Maryland??  If so, you need to contact the Maryland Wing legal officer and get their official opinion, preferably in writing.  After you do that, check with other CAP medical service officers and see what local practices are among them.  Remember, in CAP you are not under a Medical Director as you are in civilian life.  Therefore your responsibilities may not be the same.  If you get in trouble in civilian life, the Medical Director could be liable also, as you are in essence under his/her direction and license.  Not so in CAP.  As I said before, there are many good and legitimate reasons for the restrictions placed on CAP medical personnel.  Believe it or not, there is a much bigger picture here than you getting promoted.  We sometimes sacrafice individually for the greater good of the whole. That is the nature of this beast.  That is why we are leary of someone that is so consumed with their own worth.  I sincerely hope you stick around long enough to appreciate the professionalism and uniqueness of our great organisation.  I have been with it for over 30 years this time and am one of it's biggest fans.  Almost every poster on this board is dedicated and supports CAP to the nth degree.  If you need help they will provide it, however, they can smell BS from miles away.  Try some humbleness and try to fit in, not make CAP fit you and your unusual chosen career path. 

[James Shaw]

I have attended over 300 hours of national curriculum classes for the fire department, many of which are accredited for post graduate credits.  I also have a MS degree as well as a doctoral student.  I am an advanced practice paramedic as well as a private pilot.  I just attended SLS and sat thinking that it was SO BASIC and this is something I did in the fire department 10 years ago.  Since then I have taken Fire Officer Courses up to levels of managing entire fire departments.

I am seeking the rank of Capt.  Given my ability to provide transcripts and documentation for all the above does this seem reasonable or difficult to achieve?

Your academic background though impressive does not specifically fit into the "check off" sections of our organization. This does not mean that they are any less valuable than others.  That does mean that you have to figure out where you fit into the organization. That is the great thing about the organization it is "voluntary". Obviously you are passionate about your work and people that you work with in CAP will notice that. Let this shine through and the promotion may come.

You stated that SLS is SO BASIC. This may hold true for you but it may not for others. That does not mean that it is any less important to other CAP members who’s life experiences and educational background do not match yours. Be careful how you degrade the level of training offered to our members, that type of “perceived” opinion will hurt you greatly amongst your peers. Our National Commander is very passionate about professional development and our specific programs.  I have attended almost every PD course there is and I learn from every course. I learn “more” from the people than I do from the course. I have been Squadron, Wing, Region and now National Staff and hold a National Office. I just recently attended Unit Commanders Course and I already have Level V. The course was great but the people I met were better.
I will tell you honestly that if you came to me as a Squadron Commander with the attitude of “entitlement of grade” based on what you have listed than I would turn it down. Not because it doesn’t fit but because you need to figure out how to adapt your skills and passions for the organization not the other way around. The advanced promotions for the other areas such as Aerospace Officer is because it is in direct support of our missions, just like being a CFI it is in direct support of our mission. We are not a life flight type group and your advanced training would get you further and faster with something like that.

I have thousands of hours in the military as an intelligence analyst, WAS a basic level EMT years ago when I joined, have ADVANCED level skills and training in communications systems from NSA, USN, USA, and other unique skills. I came in as a SM and was just as effective as a SM as I am as a Major (after 10 years). I have 5 Master Ratings and 1 Basic. And get this I am now a Historian. Our structural hierarchy has no “solid authority”. By this I mean if you are a Lt. Col and a CNA and you come to an emergency scene than you are the best bet at the time. If you are a SM and an EMT-P… with ALS skills than you are the person for the job. Who would I listen to and work with the SM.

We have retired Generals, and Admirals in CAP who hold the rank of Lt. Col. In CAP. They are experts in their field and are highly respected no matter what rank they wear.

I love being a Historian and it shows in my work and my peers recognize it, what more can you ask for? I have done pretty good this far!!

[stimpy4242]

I was not the only one to say it was so basic, so were a few of the SLS INSTRUCTORS!  I guess they should learn not to say that then?

[Chappie]

There was a time when Chaplains could waive the SLS/CLC by reading the 221 and 221A specialty track pamphlets and taking a test.  That was changed by action of the National Board (based on recommendation of the CCAC and presented by Cols Jay Hughes and Bryon Cooper) last year.  When the proposed CAPR 265-1 is adopted, promotions beyond the initial appointment will be based on completing the levels of training in the Senior Member Professional Development Program...and not from simply breathing (time-in-grade).   The 221 Series is also being updated to reflect that the other specialty training tracks.   The members of the CCAC have felt and feel strongly that Chaplains need to know the history/culture/organization of CAP in order to perform our missions effectively.

BTW - I have completed every level of training in the Senior Member Professional Development program...as well as serving on staffs at SLS/CLC/UCC/CCRSC/NSC.

[RADIOMAN015]

Some people that have been in CAP for a long time are of the opinion that CAP should do away with senior rank anyways.

My view is that one's assigned position in a unit is much more important than one's rank.   So I would think with the original poster's skills that he would be assigned in the Emergency Services area, perhaps as the Assistant Emergency Services Officer, or ES Training Officer.   From my standpoint ones demonstrated skills/knowledge is much more important than rank!

As others have posted, you do sense that there's some resentment IF a member joins and has specific skills and or prior military grade that allows him/her to enter after phase I with a higher rank as allowed by CAP policy.   It is kind of childish in a way and validates with some long term high ranking members' opinions are.

As far as training goes, I don't believe in being critical of any training provided, because it is volunteers taking their time to do their best in providing this training, and I believe we should show respect to them!   
RM 

[Hawk200]

My post:

This one reminds me of a person that came to a meeting, stayed a while, and at the end of the meeting asked, "What can CAP do for me?".

Talked to him for awhile, but he didn't seem interested in making any contribution. Just wanted to know what was in it for him, and what rank he could get. Even thought that he'd be eligible for higher rank since he was aircrew.

By the time it was done, I discouraged him from returning. Wasn't hard, just let him know that he had to bring something to the table, but he just didn't see that.

And your post:

Wow I appreciate the positive message in the post above...you're right, I guess I don't have anything to offer.  Thank you for setting me straight.

I simply said your posts remind me of that person, I didn't state that you didn't have anything to contribute. Some people could, would and will infer that I was directly accusing you of such, but that wasn't the intent. Then again, I didn't state that person didn't have anything to contribute, just that he didn't seem to want to.

To me, (and probably a few others here), it seems that you are only looking for what you can get. Musings such as this reinforce that:

I did notice that, I wonder if you could infer that professional development wouldn't be necessary...

That gives the appearance of "I don't think I should have to do anything further."

Most of your posts equate to "I deserve ..., I am entitled to ..., because I already have ......"

A lot of folks here find those posts disturbing. Your outlook or views of entitlement are not compatible with what our organization is. We're not here for advancement of self. Professional progression is expected. Placing your own desires above the organization's goals isn't. You're here to serve others.

With all the above aside, here's some food for thought: A lot of people will tell you that you're crazy for doing this for free.

[Hawk200]

Some people that have been in CAP for a long time are of the opinion that CAP should do away with senior rank anyways.

So are some that have an extremely short time are of the same opinion. Length of time doesn't validate the viewpoint.

My view is that one's assigned position in a unit is much more important than one's rank.   So I would think with the original poster's skills that he would be assigned in the Emergency Services area, perhaps as the Assistant Emergency Services Officer, or ES Training Officer.   From my standpoint ones demonstrated skills/knowledge is much more important than rank!

It's actually the same way in the military. If a general knows that a private has a skillset acquired from before the military, he relies on that source. He trusts an Intel soldier to get him information. He trusts the pilot to deliver him to where he needs to go. He relies on a Supply sergeant to provide him with what he needs. Commanding doesn't make one a master of all needs.

As others have posted, you do sense that there's some resentment IF a member joins and has specific skills and or prior military grade that allows him/her to enter after phase I with a higher rank as allowed by CAP policy.   It is kind of childish in a way and validates with some long term high ranking members' opinions are.

And most of those opinions are the "They didn't get it here like I did" view. It is simple envy. And a desire to put everyone on the same footing, even if they lose out themselves. "If I can't have it, no one else should either."

As far as training goes, I don't believe in being critical of any training provided, because it is volunteers taking their time to do their best in providing this training, and I believe we should show respect to them!   
RM

No one is critical of the training, the training is simply not identified as being of use to us, so CAP doesn't offer anything for it. Someone could have a Bachelors in basket weaving, but we don't have any need for it, so we wouldn't offer anything for it.

Some people don't realize that the time they give CAP counts for something. It just takes a little longer for the recognition.

[Flying Pig]

Sounds like your looking for a 'title" to put on a resume.  Captain sounds better than Lt.

[PHall]

Some people don't realize that the time they give CAP counts for something. It just takes a little longer for the recognition.

Well, if you're in the military, the time you give CAP does count towards getting the Military Outstanding Volunteer Service Medal. It ain't much, but at least it's something.

[heliodoc]

Stimpy

I'm going to take a stab at this one for a moment.  This my second time around CAP in the Wing I started with in 1974.  Took a 30 yr hiatus ...came in around 2005 in another Wing and became the AEO.  Sort of fun.  Some folks could care less about any of the CAP AE missions and put a heavy emphasis on GT / UDF and what not training.

Now, mind you, I have a degree in Forestry and a minor in Fire and Aviation Management, 22 years as an Army helicopter mechanic for light, medium, and heavy lift  and became a Technical Inspector (TI) for the last 10 of my enlistment, spent over 15 years in the wildland fire biz and attained my COMML / INST / MULTI and A&P and worked civilian aircraft MX for approx 10 yrs.

When I joined CAP, I looked at that advanced rank stuff.  Left it behind.  Know why? Folks in CAP barely were interested in a Forester with an aviation background.  Barely listened to what I had to say in most "circles" in the current Wing.  Even some the "CAP maintenance types" who barely have an A&P can seem to talk the talk with me or some others with same background.  So what I did is get the Squadron a training playground through working with the ARNG and let the Sqdn ES guy run with it and the ARNG facility folks.  They have become some professional buddies thru all this.  I then in my spare time, for giggles, have taught a few of the cadets (approx 20 pax)  on the finer workings of map and compass WITHOUT  their GPS units,,,the old way .    Do stuff quietly without a lot of fanfare and leave whatever Wing or Sqdn a better place.  If they give you a plaque or recognition... GREAT.   If they do not....Then go ahead and question that squadron or Wing's integrity and its ability to REALLY recognize the QUIET actors in the organization. 

So Stimp, I am going to impart this liiiiitle piece of CAP knowledge, that I came up with on my own, after reading your CV, my man, which is pretty impressive......

Do not worry about the CAP rank and grade structure for now.  Just impart that current high speed knowledge you have acquired OUTSIDE of CAP and introduce and work it quietly with those that are interested in your degree field and that high speed EMT.  Share that knowledge, even though CAP has its kniptsions about the med field, rappelling field, towing and handling aircraft videos that are suppose to make CAP superstars on how to tow and recover aircraft, and just about every thing else CAP works with.

You soon find out your education is worth FAAAAAAR more than that CAP CPT sets of bars...

How do I know??  I am a CAP "Crappedon" after 5 years in this organization.........Guess what kind of raise I received through CAP after all that life's education in the ES and AEROSPACE world, that local and Wing CAP (current) does not even be or appear interested.  I already knew how to serve the organization and since you are new to it.... I won't be the 30 yrs CAP type who will call you a loose cannon and say I wouldn't promote you.   I'd have to sit down with an individual and try to help them"steer" their education towards CAP.

So Stimp, enjoy the ride in CAP, hope u can plow through all "education" that CAP can provide for "leadership" experiences.  Hopefully, with your background, Someone in your Wing could recognize your background and help you steer it towards something applicable in CAP.  Some times even being a pilot outside of CAP does not even apply to anything inside of CAP.  So run with it, Stimpy, with or without that illustrious CAP rank and grade that can barely get one a cup of coffee at Starbucks......

[stimpy4242]

A lot of folks here find those posts disturbing. Your outlook or views of entitlement are not compatible with what our organization is. We're not here for advancement of self. Professional progression is expected. Placing your own desires above the organization's goals isn't. You're here to serve others.

With all the above aside, here's some food for thought: A lot of people will tell you that you're crazy for doing this for free.

Thanks for letting me know what the organization is all about.  I have been volunteering in the Fire Department now for more than 10 years.  Always a top 10 responder.  I know what it is to give back to my community.  Also, I have an opportunity to do that for my community multiple times a day in the FD.  So you don't need to tell me what volunteer service is all about.  Since I have joined CAP we have not had a single call for search.  So in reference to providing good to my community, I am well aware and have been doing it for a long long time.

Also my resume doesn't need some CAP rank to make it impressive.  I am pretty proud of what I have accomplished already and it speaks for itself.  In addition, I am self employed so I don't really need to hand my resume to anyone.

[Hawk200]

Also my resume doesn't need some CAP rank to make it impressive.  I am pretty proud of what I have accomplished already and it speaks for itself.

Then why is it so important that you recieve a promotion in Civil Air Patrol?

Your accomplishments in the FD are commendable, but they're from the Fire Department. I'm quite certain that you've been recognized for them there. Why should CAP recognize qualifications that are from a substantially different organization and award you advanced rank for them?

I've seen this type of issue when people change from one type of industry or field to another. A few think that the accomplishments from their previous career should be recognized, and that they should be advanced for them. It doesn't work that way. Moving into something new means that you're starting at the bottom.

Related, but unrelated, it may not be a bad idea to consider education such as yours for some type of advancement in the Health Services Officer track. You are neither doctor or nurse, but HSO seems to be an appropriate fit.

[PHall]

A lot of folks here find those posts disturbing. Your outlook or views of entitlement are not compatible with what our organization is. We're not here for advancement of self. Professional progression is expected. Placing your own desires above the organization's goals isn't. You're here to serve others.

With all the above aside, here's some food for thought: A lot of people will tell you that you're crazy for doing this for free.

Thanks for letting me know what the organization is all about.  I have been volunteering in the Fire Department now for more than 10 years.  Always a top 10 responder.  I know what it is to give back to my community.  Also, I have an opportunity to do that for my community multiple times a day in the FD.  So you don't need to tell me what volunteer service is all about.  Since I have joined CAP we have not had a single call for search.  So in reference to providing good to my community, I am well aware and have been doing it for a long long time.

Also my resume doesn't need some CAP rank to make it impressive.  I am pretty proud of what I have accomplished already and it speaks for itself.  In addition, I am self employed so I don't really need to hand my resume to anyone.

You won't get any calls for any Search Missions until you get ES qualified. You just can't walk in off the street and expect to be going on missions.

[stimpy4242]

already GES qualified and finished Mission Scanner...anything else you want to assume?

[stimpy4242]

Hawk200:

I haven't left the fire department and no the fire department doesn't do all these recognitions and awards and labels and titles and stuff, I guess its just knowing that the training you have might help you save someones life or even your own.

In addition, as stated in earlier posts, getting the rank is not for others or to show.  I am not a uniform person and you will never see me marching, its a matter of personal recogniton for myself.  In addition, if something makes me eligible, then I think I should go for it.  I mean I am a pilot so that makes me eligible for 2nd LT, I am an educator (if assigned AEO) that makes mes eligible for Capt., I am a healthcare professional with an MS (I confirmed already) that makes me eligible for 1st Lt.  I feel like if I am eligible for things because of past experience, I should go for them.  Isn't that why the process is there?

I would like to add as well that the fire department courses that I am referring to are ACE accredited for Post Graduate Management Courses.  So I would say, from a management level, they are applicable to other life adventures.  I made that comment earlier.  The professional development courses, from what I have already taken and from what I have read, while they have a CAP twist, are about managing people.  So they do apply from that standpoint.

[lordmonar]

Y'all think maybe you should tone it back a bit.

Stimpy.....you just touched the pet peeve of a lot of people on this forum. 

Everyone else....let's stop making assumptions.  Stimpy's commander will do what he feels in right.

[Hawk200]

In addition, if something makes me eligible, then I think I should go for it.  I mean I am a pilot so that makes me eligible for 2nd LT, I am an educator (if assigned AEO) that makes mes eligible for Capt., I am a healthcare professional with an MS (I confirmed already) that makes me eligible for 1st Lt.  I feel like if I am eligible for things because of past experience, I should go for them.  Isn't that why the process is there?

OK, now I'm puzzled. If you knew all this, why come here stating that you're entitled to it?  Do you feel that you should get something higher than what you're eligible for?

[capchiro]

If you are an EMT, paramedic or not, you are eligible for 2Lt rank and not 1Lt rank.  Have you read CAPR 160?  Is there some information you have not provided to us?  Thank you.

[Flying Pig]

A lot of folks here find those posts disturbing. Your outlook or views of entitlement are not compatible with what our organization is. We're not here for advancement of self. Professional progression is expected. Placing your own desires above the organization's goals isn't. You're here to serve others.

With all the above aside, here's some food for thought: A lot of people will tell you that you're crazy for doing this for free.

Thanks for letting me know what the organization is all about.  I have been volunteering in the Fire Department now for more than 10 years.  Always a top 10 responder.  I know what it is to give back to my community.  Also, I have an opportunity to do that for my community multiple times a day in the FD.  So you don't need to tell me what volunteer service is all about.  Since I have joined CAP we have not had a single call for search.  So in reference to providing good to my community, I am well aware and have been doing it for a long long time.

Also my resume doesn't need some CAP rank to make it impressive.  I am pretty proud of what I have accomplished already and it speaks for itself.  In addition, I am self employed so I don't really need to hand my resume to anyone.

I dont think there is anyone here who will argue that........

[PHall]

already GES qualified and finished Mission Scanner...anything else you want to assume?

If you don't post it, how are supposed to know?

[stimpy4242]

If you are an EMT, paramedic or not, you are eligible for 2Lt rank and not 1Lt rank.  Have you read CAPR 160?  Is there some information you have not provided to us?  Thank you.

I asked, any of the people below in the 2nd LT section are considered health care professionals.  That is why in the 1st LT section it says or any healthcare professional with an MS.  So paramedic, has an MS, 1st Lt.  That is where I got that from.

Also I corrected myself a few pages back and said, and since then have been using, the term eligible for not entitled to.  I realize I am not entitled to any rank, but may be eligible for a rank based on different things such as those that I have mentioned.

My OP should have just asked what is the process for a specialty waiver.  That was eventually answered and I thanked that person for that information.  In addition I received more helpful information from the Nurse Officer for my wing in a private message.

Can we close this thread?

[Gunner C]

As all of the sharks continue to circle, I'd like to weigh in on this:

• Stimpy asked a question.  It may have been less than crystal clear, but there are those who lie in wait to ambush.
• Stimpy appears to be incredulous with a system that brings in some with lower qualifications (or at least less applicable quals) at a higher grade
• Stimpy appears not to realize that most here don't think that rank/grade is important
• Some here are quick to attack new people, SM or cadet, in CAP if they malform a question that you, through years of experience, can recite off the top of your head and think that anyone who asks a question via this resource rather than going to a poorly worded regulation is an idiot who needs to be beaten down
• Some here are quick to forget what it's like to be new in CAP
• Some here are part of the reason that CAP has a horrible retention rate.  Instead of helping new folks and being welcoming, they're given a t-shirt (albeit virtual) with a bulls eye on it that says to others "I'm new, kick me."

Stimpy, when I was a commander I used to get excited when folks like you showed up.  Being a former EMT, I understand the difference between EMT-B, EMT-I and EMT-P.  The latter is an order of magnitude.  While your full capabilities couldn't be used in normal CAP operations, I'd put you to work as an instructor for mission critical first aid subjects.  For cadets you'd be an invaluable resource for career mentoring - how many young people get to rub elbows with emergency healthcare professionals?  I'd make sure that you were introduced quickly to other facets of ES (which you've already done). 

The experience you bring to the table is the ground equivalent of a CFII ATP multi-engine jet ratings.  Yes, you need some CAP experience and that will come with time.  But, seriously, were I your commander, after getting some CAP experience under your belt, I'd be beating the drum up the chain of command to get you a direct appointment to captain.

It doesn't sound like this guy is going to be a hanger-flying chest beater.  If appears he's here to serve and he's brought creds with him.  If it's OK to appoint CFIs to captain whose only contribution to the force would be to put hours on the aircraft, then this guy shouldn't be a problem.

Flame on if you want. 

[heliodoc]

Gunner

No flaming here...

Excellent post for those who think their CAP experience is know all end all.

With Stimpy's REAL life ES background in fire,........THERE IS a few things CAP could also LEARN from his experience of ICS...A system that CAP knows more about than the REAL First Responder counterparts

Again, rank and grade in CAP can not even buy a cup of joe in the REAL world

[LtCol057]

Well said, Gunner.

As far as my comment re: only one waiver, I was not clear in my statement.  Forgot to proofread it.

My comment should have said that you can get one waiver for exceptional qualifications.  I can't find it in the regs either, but I'm going on what I was told at a seminar by Susie Parker from NHQ.  I was also told the same thing by a former Region Commander when I was Wing Personnel Officer.

[Rotorhead]

As all of the sharks continue to circle, I'd like to weigh in on this:

• Some here are part of the reason that CAP has a horrible retention rate.  Instead of helping new folks and being welcoming, they're given a t-shirt (albeit virtual) with a bulls eye on it that says to others "I'm new, kick me."

You're forgetting that some new members come in with the attitude that "I think your organization should be run the way I want."

[Spike]

Wow......this is getting rough in here!

Stimpy, apply for the advanced promotion through the Squadron Commander.  If he or she approves, it will climb the chain of command.  Let it then play out.  Make sure you attach certificates of completion, degree certificates, awards, training reports, letters of recommendation from whoever you want and any thing else you think will help your chances.

Rank in CAP, though important to some, is not important to others, and somewhere up the chain of command you may hit the person who would never approve a special appointment.

I wish you luck.  Let us know how it turns out!! 

[Aviator1]

This thread is giving me a headache so i need to end this right now....

1 - You have been in since June, so why dont you take the time and learn the program and what it has to offer, and then go to your Commander and ask for assistance in getting what you deserve.  Thousands of people have done this before you and will continue to do it after you.  Membership in CAP is privilege and not a right, perform for CAP and you will find that things get much easier to accomplish.  I know for a fact, you are too new to this program to even have a clue on how it works...CAP does not owe you anything!

2 -The standard Paramedic Program is a 2 year course.  If you went 4 years, that means you chose to get a BS in Emergency Medical Technology - Paramedic, but you had your Paramedic in 2 years.  If the college took that long to give you your Paramedic, you better get your money back.  You are considered an EMT in the eyes of the Military...Military EMT's are allowed to do much more than a civilian Paramedic....

[Aviator1]

In MD you are only permitted to function as a Paramedic if you are affiliated with a jurisdictional program. Just because you have a Paramedic card does not give you permission to run around and play god.....I am a Paramedic so im allowed to say that...You must complete a familiarization in that jurisdiction, take a protocol exam, and be blessed by that programs medical director.  CAP DOES NOT HAVE A DUTY TO ACT....We are not an EMS service and therefore we are not obligated to provide anything above basic first aid skills.....Anyone in the world can sue anyone, but you DO NOT HAVE A DUTY TO ACT, NOR ARE YOU ALLOWED TO FUNCTION AS A PARAMEDIC FOR CAP....In CAP, you are an EMT....Thats it....

I take pride in this program and have been involved for over 20 yrs...I have been a Cadet, Squadron Commander, Group Commander, and everything in between...My suggestion is this..

Learn the program, earn the respect of your fellow members and then ask for promotion....If your not willing to do that, go to the trash can, rip up your card and get the hell out!!  We have thousands of members here for the right reasons...We have members who are 2-star Generals in the military and higher and they have a rank of SM because they are here for the program, not the rank ...

[Aviator1]

When you can stand up, be familiar with how things work, do your training (ES, Cadet, Prof. Development), and earn the respect of your fellow members, then you have a right to come on this forum and complain about what you are not getting...Im sure there are some members on here who may sympathize with you and say give you what you want, and then there are the others (prob the majority) that are going to say, i did my time, worked for what i have and didnt complain, so you should do the same....Again, make a committment to the program, not just the 2 months you have and then see how things happen.  I think you will find more members are willing to work with you when they see you are contributing to the program....

I see you are in a specialty track, but have not completed any of those levels.  You are not assigned to a duty position in your squadron so obviously you are not contributing yet....You have your ICS courses and i see you took SLS and i applaud you for that....work at your unit, learn how things work, and then respectively go to your Prof. Development officer at your squadron and see what they can do for you...

[Aviator1]

When you are ready to do all that and prove you are here for the right reasons, you should have no problem advancing through the program..

And the last thing to remember, promotion in CAP is not guaranteed.  When you go on a public site such as this and start complaining about your Squadron/Group/Wing and how you are being wronged and the ink on your card is not even dry yet, why should your commander even think about giving you an advanced promotion that is his discretion...

So...I know your Commander and your Group Commander and they will bend over backwards to help you out.  You will get your training, you will play an active role in your unit and probably do very well....All they want to see is a committment to the program.  You came in once, talked about how you didnt want to wear the uniform, and after they explained the program, you dissapeared for a while...Now you are back and wanting promotions with 2 months in the program...Just prove yourself and you will find things are much easier. We want recruits, we need recruits, but we also have to protect the integrity of the program and make sure those members who we allow to wear the uniform (even the polo shirt), are representing it well...

And in the words of Forrest Gump, Thats all i gotta say about that!!!  Good luck, i hope you have a very successful career in CAP, its a very good program, but take your time and learn it well....

[MIKE]

Ding.