Spin Training

Flying Pig · August 19, 2009, 03:58:17 AM

NOT CAP RELATED

I am writing a proposal to have our fixed wing pilots at work sent to be trained in Spins/Unusual Attitude Recovery and Emergency Procedures. Our Helicopter Pilots attend Emergency Procedures Training every 6 months, however, nothing is done for the airplane pilots. Beyond currency and our ratings, no other training is provided.
Im looking for help on my proposal beyond "Well, the other guys get to do it." Any input, considerations, statistics, etc. would be appreciated.

Thom · August 19, 2009, 07:42:46 AM

Sorry I don't have any statistics, but I do have a personal observation/anecdote, for what it is worth:

I believe, as fully as I believe that the sun will rise in the East in the morning, that if it were not for my CFI who took me through my Private ticket INSISTING that I undertake Spin Training I would DIE the first time I spun an airplane for real. I base this on the fact that when we went up for our first Spin Training session, with both of us and our parachutes -packed- into an Aerobat 150, when that first Spin began I PANICKED like I have never before or since in my life. No book or video truly prepares you for the ass-over-teakettle, whirling, nose down, droning, full on visceral experience of a Spin. Of course, now that I've been in Spins, and know what they feel like and that, despite the sturm und drang, they are easily recovered from, I am respectful but not fearful of them. After experiencing a real Spin, I was left flabbergasted that the FAA allows people to earn a Private ticket without at least experiencing a single Spin to prepare them. It makes no more sense than allowing you to get your license without actually Stalling an aircraft. I would like to see the statistics on how many people died in the very first Spin they ever experienced. I bet the percentage is substantial.

So, I am a big proponent of Spin Training. I don't know that everyone needs to know how to get out of an Inverted Flat Spin, but you need to at least recognize and recover from the garden variety Spins. Merely being acclimatized to them will at least eliminate the: 'Oh God, what happened, what is going on??!!' effect.

Thom Hamilton

sparks · August 19, 2009, 12:02:08 PM

Upset training is valuable if you have the time and money to get it. Spin training is another matter and one of those "third rail" topics that normally polarize the pilot community. The dividing line is between training to recognize and avoid a spin and actual spin training/recovery. I'm a proponent of recognition of a stall condition and recovery. Why you might ask, it's because the majority of stall spin accidents are at a low altitude where spin recovery isn't possible. The only technique that will save the pilots bacon is recognition and avoidance. If the accident numbers said otherwise, spins at altitude I'd support spin training. I don't doubt that the first spin is a shock and pilots are in shock but in the traffic pattern at 500 or less AGL feet there's not enough room to fix the problem.

Upset recovery is valuable for pilots flying high performance aircraft who may experience an unusual attitude at altitude due to turbulence, system malfunction (yaw damper failure) or failure to watch critical airspeeds.

Airrace · August 19, 2009, 01:07:52 PM

Quote from: Thom on August 19, 2009, 07:42:46 AM
Sorry I don't have any statistics, but I do have a personal observation/anecdote, for what it is worth:

I believe, as fully as I believe that the sun will rise in the East in the morning, that if it were not for my CFI who took me through my Private ticket INSISTING that I undertake Spin Training I would DIE the first time I spun an airplane for real. I base this on the fact that when we went up for our first Spin Training session, with both of us and our parachutes -packed- into an Aerobat 150, when that first Spin began I PANICKED like I have never before or since in my life. No book or video truly prepares you for the ass-over-teakettle, whirling, nose down, droning, full on visceral experience of a Spin. Of course, now that I've been in Spins, and know what they feel like and that, despite the sturm und drang, they are easily recovered from, I am respectful but not fearful of them. After experiencing a real Spin, I was left flabbergasted that the FAA allows people to earn a Private ticket without at least experiencing a single Spin to prepare them. It makes no more sense than allowing you to get your license without actually Stalling an aircraft. I would like to see the statistics on how many people died in the very first Spin they ever experienced. I bet the percentage is substantial.

So, I am a big proponent of Spin Training. I don't know that everyone needs to know how to get out of an Inverted Flat Spin, but you need to at least recognize and recover from the garden variety Spins. Merely being acclimatized to them will at least eliminate the: 'Oh God, what happened, what is going on??!!' effect.

Thom Hamilton

Perfectly said!

Chicago_Pilot · August 20, 2009, 09:44:48 PM

Quote from: Flying Pig on August 19, 2009, 03:58:17 AM
Im looking for help on my proposal beyond "Well, the other guys get to do it." Any input, considerations, statistics, etc. would be appreciated.

I would give APS (http://www.apstraining.com)a call. They provide upset recovery training. Therefore they probably have a lot of data to help them sell such training.

DG · August 21, 2009, 03:12:47 AM

For several years, we had a very effective cadet flight training program at the local squadron.

5-6 PPL ASEL per year.

We always incorporated spin training.

But no longer, with the latest revised CAPR 60-1.

Airrace · August 21, 2009, 12:18:43 PM

Quote from: Thom on August 19, 2009, 07:42:46 AM
Sorry I don't have any statistics, but I do have a personal observation/anecdote, for what it is worth:

I believe, as fully as I believe that the sun will rise in the East in the morning, that if it were not for my CFI who took me through my Private ticket INSISTING that I undertake Spin Training I would DIE the first time I spun an airplane for real. I base this on the fact that when we went up for our first Spin Training session, with both of us and our parachutes -packed- into an Aerobat 150, when that first Spin began I PANICKED like I have never before or since in my life. No book or video truly prepares you for the ass-over-teakettle, whirling, nose down, droning, full on visceral experience of a Spin. Of course, now that I've been in Spins, and know what they feel like and that, despite the sturm und drang, they are easily recovered from, I am respectful but not fearful of them. After experiencing a real Spin, I was left flabbergasted that the FAA allows people to earn a Private ticket without at least experiencing a single Spin to prepare them. It makes no more sense than allowing you to get your license without actually Stalling an aircraft. I would like to see the statistics on how many people died in the very first Spin they ever experienced. I bet the percentage is substantial.

So, I am a big proponent of Spin Training. I don't know that everyone needs to know how to get out of an Inverted Flat Spin, but you need to at least recognize and recover from the garden variety Spins. Merely being acclimatized to them will at least eliminate the: 'Oh God, what happened, what is going on??!!' effect.

Thom Hamilton

Spin training should be required before anyone gets there license.

Al Sayre · August 21, 2009, 01:26:52 PM

I'm not sure about "spin training" but "spin familiarization" should be included. We've all been told to "Keep the ball in the middle" but until you experience the airplane swaping ends in a big hurry, you really can't understand why...

MooneyMeyer · August 21, 2009, 02:07:52 PM

Listen to this MAYDAY! call and tell me spin training isn't required.

http://www.alexisparkinn.com/photogallery/Videos/flightassist.mp3

While my initial reaction was to laugh my butt off at this poor guy, you realize pretty quickly how deadly serious this situation is. The private pilot, without instrument rating, approaches IMC conditions and decides to turn around. Somehow the guy gets into a spin in the soup and has no idea how to recover.

I urge anyone who wants to get their PPL, to do so at a flight school that provides actual spin training.

desertengineer1 · August 21, 2009, 07:28:09 PM

Quote from: MooneyMeyer on August 21, 2009, 02:07:52 PM
Listen to this MAYDAY! call and tell me spin training isn't required.

http://www.alexisparkinn.com/photogallery/Videos/flightassist.mp3

While my initial reaction was to laugh my butt off at this poor guy, you realize pretty quickly how deadly serious this situation is. The private pilot, without instrument rating, approaches IMC conditions and decides to turn around. Somehow the guy gets into a spin in the soup and has no idea how to recover.

I urge anyone who wants to get their PPL, to do so at a flight school that provides actual spin training.

I think I can comfortably speak on the main thoughts in my mind while hearing that.

1. Holy crap...

2. What was this guy's experience and training?

Did a little looking. It's listed as a C172P, student fleet, I think.

Pic here:

http://www.picpile.net/ims/pic_155nJAV2/4746.jpg

From misc posts, I gather the poor guy got into immediate IMC on climbout, tried a 180, and then got into more trouble.

Wow....

Anybody know any more details?

SJFedor · August 31, 2009, 05:37:34 PM

Quote from: DG on August 21, 2009, 03:12:47 AM
For several years, we had a very effective cadet flight training program at the local squadron.

5-6 PPL ASEL per year.

We always incorporated spin training.

But no longer, with the latest revised CAPR 60-1.

Which I was a product of.

And I didn't get my 8710 signed by the instructor signing me off until he took me up for an hour of spins.

Ah, the good ole days

ricks · August 31, 2009, 06:06:06 PM

Wow. Just wow. That was some good controlling.

A.Member · August 31, 2009, 06:18:57 PM

Quote from: sparks on August 19, 2009, 12:02:08 PM
Upset training is valuable if you have the time and money to get it. Spin training is another matter and one of those "third rail" topics that normally polarize the pilot community. The dividing line is between training to recognize and avoid a spin and actual spin training/recovery. I'm a proponent of recognition of a stall condition and recovery. Why you might ask, it's because the majority of stall spin accidents are at a low altitude where spin recovery isn't possible. The only technique that will save the pilots bacon is recognition and avoidance. If the accident numbers said otherwise, spins at altitude I'd support spin training. I don't doubt that the first spin is a shock and pilots are in shock but in the traffic pattern at 500 or less AGL feet there's not enough room to fix the problem.

Upset recovery is valuable for pilots flying high performance aircraft who may experience an unusual attitude at altitude due to turbulence, system malfunction (yaw damper failure) or failure to watch critical airspeeds.

I'd argue that upset/unusual attitude training is too valuable NOT to spend the time and money to complete!

It should be a part of every pilot's training program leading up to a PPL. I understand your point and agree that recognition and avoidance is an important part of the training but so is the actual spin. So, it adds an hour or two - the life you save may be your own.

As others have shared, I remember going through IFR training under the hood and not recognizing the fact that I was entering a spin. My instructor asked me take off the hood and tell him what was happening. As others eluded to, I didn't really have an answer but I knew I wasn't in a good position. My instrutor explained that I was entering a spin. He asked if I had ever done spin training. I responded with 'no' - the words alone had struck fear into me up to that point. Then, to capitalize on the training opportunity, he had me continue on into the spin and showed me how to recover. It's the best thing he could've done for me.

Spin training is important.

That said, I don't know that the correct arena for this lesson is our CAP aircraft. Flight training isn't an objective of CAP.

heliodoc · August 31, 2009, 07:25:38 PM

Flight training may not be but proficiency ought to be and CFI's in CAP worth their salt ought be teaching this as well!!

Our 450K 182's and the "up-n-coming" refurbed C172's sure ARE NOT exempt from spin training nor just because the have the CAP flash, that, all of a sudden CAP aircraft are "spin proof"

CAP ought to reintroduce it so we "folk" who are less proficient are not shook by it...

IF CAP is the organization with the MOST Cessna aircraft in a fleet...then this ought to be a MANDATORY item at NHQ Stan Eval to be "reintroduced"

Flying Pig · August 31, 2009, 07:56:40 PM

If Im not mistaken spins in a 182 are prohibited per the POH. They are in a 206. But I agree, it would be great training. Low and slow flying, high DA, max weight, making orbits, you 90% of the awy to a spin.

heliodoc · August 31, 2009, 08:03:37 PM

Rob

You are right per the C182 POH...I am there now BUT the recovery procedure is mentioned on page 3-24 of the NAVIII POH...

Nonetheless, like you said, great training. I do also concur low and slow flying as I did fly for a skydive op and was at or near gross weight and high / hots combined for some interesting flying days at 80 knots or less with a bunch of skydivers who sometimes needed to move around during flight.....

I knew there were days that I wasn't far from a stall or a spin!!