WA State Police high tech fixed wing planes

[RiverAux]

There is a story about the Washington State Police getting a homeland security grant to install FLIR and real-time video transmission equipment in their Cessna 206s.  We need to ramp up or be left behind with our Mark 1 eyeballs ...

http://www.washingtonresponder.com/posted/1289/Winter_2009_Team_Washington_Homeland_Security_Newsletter.269977.pdf

[PHall]

And they also have a budget to train their paid flight crews.
Stuff like FLIR requires training to learn the equipment and to stay proficient in it's use.
That would be money we don't have. We don't have to pay our crews, but we do have to pay for the flight hours.
And a "one time" grant isn't going to pay for that.

[heliodoc]

CAP need to realize these grants are for first responders and for equipment to keep skills sharp

MAYBE CAP needs some real professional grant writers down at Maxwell to even get near the ball game with all the newer equipment.

MAYBE CAP needs a better set of training standards as set by response agencies to get into the ball game

450K aircraft are fine....but we need more training in the associated equipment SDIS  ARCHER and not just those once every two month  misiions...

So again, this where I can say this stuff is for the paid professionals.. CAP used to do just fine in the days of the Nevada Test Site....its a liitle more than the USAF that has lost missions for us....

FLIR and its associated costs? CAP better get a grant writer if it expects to get anywhere near this

[arajca]

Another sticking point is that most of these grants are funneled through the states. CAP, as a national organizations, isn't eligible for them.

[Major Lord]

I know it would be hard for us to wrangle up a way to add FLIR, but has anyone tried using one of the new generation of hand-held thermal imagers from a light aircraft? They are much more affordable, and don't require gas cylinders to work like the old ones.  Using them from a roof top, human bodies ( living ones at least) stand out like a chancre on a school marm.  I am not sure how well they would work through our less-than optically correct windows. Raytheon and a number of other companies make these.

Major Lord

[Flying Pig]

Most of these grants also identify needs in specific areas as well.  They arent going to give a grant for an organization that could relocate it to anywhere they want after they get it.  I would see any grant stating that the equipment had to stay in a certain area.  Then what will hurt us is the fact that CAP is a volunteer organization. Which means to the grant people that there is no assurance that the unit will even be around next year, and now CAP decides they need to move the aircraft because the Sq. closed down for lack of membership. 
I dont think any First Responder grants would come anywhere close to funding this type of equipment.  It would cost about $350K just to outfit 1 plane.  For a nationwide group like CAP I dont know that it would be very cost effective because each aircraft have to be wired and fitted with the gear.  You cant just switch it between aircraft.

As far as using the hand held Thermal units, its a waste of time.  My thought, if there is money out there to be spent on this stuff, it needs to be spent on the full timers first.  Not a popular statement with this crowd Im sure, but thats how I view it.

[RiverAux]

As far as using the hand held Thermal units, its a waste of time.  My thought, if there is money out there to be spent on this stuff, it needs to be spent on the full timers first.  Not a popular statement with this crowd Im sure, but thats how I view it.

Might want to think about the fact that not all states have small fixed wing assets such as this of their own.  Most everybody has choppers, but airplanes aren't quite as common anymore. 

[Flying Pig]

And you'd be wrong.  Planes are very common. Just not publicized.

[heliodoc]

I'd have to agree with Rob,

Some communities still have have fixed wing and a number of communities may still be reevaluating rotary wing flight departments......simply the costs of turbines is still more expensive than fixed wing assets.

But trying to get CAP into more of the action of the FLIR sorts, unless somebody has a great grant writer or philanthropist in their back pockets, I could be around 101 yrs old by the time that happens.  So FLIR in CAP's future? It's debatable at best.

My best guess also as a former helo mech and EMA type........... paid outfits will always get things first in these asset categories.  CAP just got lucky with its G1000's and ARCHERS.  WE may have to get used to the ideas that we has better master these items first before we get anymore technology

[RiverAux]

And you'd be wrong.  Planes are very common. Just not publicized.

No, I said that not all states have fixed wing planes and I am correct in that I know that my state doesn't.

All government agencies like to build their own little empires so I'm not surprised that some will say that only paid professionals can handle certain equipment.  As a volunteer organization CAP is a threat to them.  They certainly won't admit it and we don't like to talk about it either, but the fact is that we are in competition with all state and local aviation departments. 

Incidentally, there is no reason that the AF couldn't buy this sort of equipment for us.  In case folks haven't noticed they've been spending millions on CAP communications upgrades for years.  And yes, not all grants are going to be open to us, but that doesn't mean that we couldn't be extremely competitive for the ones that are. 

[Flying Pig]

Maybe the State Police dont, but most states, even the most Po-Dunk ones, have at least one local PD or Sheriff that have fixed Wing assets.

Nobody said only paid professionals can handle the equipment, anyone can work it.  But if there is money to be spent, buying it for full time Law Enforcement agencies should be the top priority.  Quite frankly, we can do more with it more often.  Unlike CAP, there is NO mission that I am restricted from performing.  And I definitely think its a far stretch to suggest that "all" state and local aviation is in competition with CAP.  I can guarantee there are none in CA that are in competition with CAP.  I can tell you my medium size department is not in competition with CAP, and I am the local CAP Sq. Commander.  I would not begin to even suggst that CAP could perform  even a small percentage of the missions the local agencies perform.  One of the primary reasons is that CAP isnt even allowed to perform them.
That tells me your level of understanding of what law enforcement aviation and what we do.  We rarely even use our FLIR's for SAR, so I would be real interested to see CAP's tactics.  Keeping in mind 2700 sq. miles of our county is the Sierra and John Muir Wilderness, I'd say I can speak with authority on that. 
CAP isnt going to be outfitted with $800,000 FLIR SAFIRE's that you see on C-130's. We would end up with the 7500 or 8000 at best. Its extremely difficult, even for someone who uses a FLIR several hours per week for a living to search the mountains with one, not to mention a grid square.

Would I like to see CAP outfitted?  Sure.  Get rid of that ARCHER thing we try to pretend works and stick a FLIR on it.  We'll find something to do with it. Your not going to use it like you think you will.

Im a little curious regarding your background and experience for some of the claims you made.  What state are you in?  I could probably find you a couple planes.

[flyguy06]

No  law enforcement agency in Georgia has fixed wing assets. The ones that do have aviation have helicopters. The GA dept of Forestry does however.

[SARPilotNY]

FLIRs for CAP's mssion in locating a crashed airplanes seems worthless.
First, it seems to take hours to locate an IC and than hours more to get an aircrew loacted and hours again to get them launched.  By than, the aircraft and occupants have assumed room tempature and may not provide a usable signature.  If the plane had been consumed by fire and there were smoldering remains, trees or a signal fire, presto, it will work.  Wished they had used it the next day on the Fossett search as I understand there were reports of smoke at or near the crash site for days after he crashed. 

[RiverAux]

I don't think anyone was looking at them as something for missing airplane searches, but rather for missing people searches, of which occur orders of magnitude more frequently than airplane searches. 

[Flying Pig]

Good luck using a FLIR for that for anything bigger than a city block. 

[Rotorhead]

Wished they had used it the next day on the Fossett search as I understand there were reports of smoke at or near the crash site for days after he crashed.

More "understanding," eh?

What's you source for this information?

[Flying Pig]

They had a C-130 fly the area the next day.  It flew up the Owens Valley using its FLIR Safire.  It didnt pick up anything.

[bosshawk]

Just to spice up this post, saw in the newspaper today that Washington is reducing their State Police flying hours next fiscal year from 7,000 to 4,000 and posting two of their pilots back to ground patrol.  Budget caught up with them, I see in the paper.

[Flying Pig]

Law Enforcement is famous for putting themselves out of business.

[flyingscotsman]

No  law enforcement agency in Georgia has fixed wing assets. The ones that do have aviation have helicopters. The GA dept of Forestry does however.

Georgia State Patrol = N6958
1975 CESSNA 402B

[Auxpilot]

We got Archer and can't keep up with all of the missions that we get for that little chunk of ballast

[Flying Pig]

You actually get missions for it?

[Auxpilot]

You actually get missions for it?

Got one going on this afternoon, it's assigned to help hold the GA8 down on the ramp during some heavy winds.

[bosshawk]

Aux: perhaps we can send you the one that we have in CA and then you will have two of them to hold down in strong winds.  Tied together, they might keep both of them down.

[Auxpilot]

Aux: perhaps we can send you the one that we have in CA and then you will have two of them to hold down in strong winds.  Tied together, they might keep both of them down.

Actually I have a "cash for clunkers" deal in the works where I can trade it in for a Brownie camera, an ADF unit and a set of rabbit ears. Stuff that I can really use on a search. :clap:

[NIN]

http://www.wsp.wa.gov/information/docs/video/Reckless_Driving_King_Co.asx

Washington State patrol aircraft.  Watch the imagery and symbology on the display. They can overlay GIS data on the target location to show roadways and addresses.

Now -THATS- cool!

[Larry Mangum]

http://www.wsp.wa.gov/information/docs/video/Reckless_Driving_King_Co.asx

Washington State patrol aircraft.  Watch the imagery and symbology on the display. They can overlay GIS data on the target location to show roadways and addresses.

Now -THATS- cool!

From the imaging, I would think that it was a chopper, judging by the short turn radius.

[NIN]

From the imaging, I would think that it was a chopper, judging by the short turn radius.

According to the Washington State Patrol web page, they operate 5 fixed-wing aircraft, including 2 FLIR equipped C-206s. 
http://www.wsp.wa.gov/crime/sod.htm#aviation

Smokey 3 is touted as an airplane instead of a helicopter in this article: http://www.publicbroadcasting.net/kplu/news.newsmain/article/1/0/1532083/KPLU.Local.News/Washington.State.Patrol.Takes.to.the.Air.to.Catch.Drunk.Drivers

Plus the symbology on the display is that of a fixed wing aircraft.

[Flying Pig]

I prefer the Aero Computers mapping system, which is the one I use at work.  It provides a split screen with the cross hairs on the map showing you where your camera is pointing.  It can also parcel the map and show you the addresses your camera is looking at.  Its great for surviellence when you see a car pull in to a driveway.  You can tell your guys, who may be miles away, exactly what the address is and who owns the property.  But WA State Police do not have any helicopters.

http://www.aerocomputers.com/vdo/dvd/viewsync-waypoints.html

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[Airrace]

Grants are a good idea to fund things, just hard to get unless you are a professional grant writer or know someone that can help you.

[tomchurchill]

Flying Pig:

The WSP has purchased two Churchill Navigation ARS mapping systems after previously being an Aerocomputers customer.  Not to turn this into an ad, but if you take a quick look at one of our videos, you'll see why:  ARS can do the old-fashioned side-by-side views, but once you've seen street names & parcels over live video, you'll never go back -- taking your eyes off the suspect to find out where they are at is just too dangerous:

  http://vimeo.com/6662822

Best Wishes,

--Tom Churchill
  CEO, Churchill Navigation
  http://www.churchillnavigation.com/

[Gunner C]

You actually get missions for it?

I'm flying one tomorrow.  They happen all the time.  I wish they'd publicize them to the membership more often.  It's a pretty good mission and right up the system's alley.  The customer is pretty pleased so far.

The problem is two-fold:

1. The pilots try to tell the operators where to go and how to do it.  They don't have the foggiest idea of what we need to do.

2.  The Archer Op and the ground station analyst don't get nearly enough practice in getting the best out of the data.  They either set the thresholds too high or too low.  That's where the "art" lies in the system. 

When the operators are well trained and have had enough ground station time, then it works well.  It's not an end-all, but it's pretty darned impressive when it's hitting on all cylinders.

A huge mistake was only getting one ground station per aircraft.  That means only one operator can practice at a time.  A guy probably needs an hour+ per month on the ground station just to keep sharp on it.  Unfortunately, the licenses for the ground stations don't allow anyone to move the software to anything but the old clunker computers that come with the suite.  There are upgrades coming, but remember - this system is a prototype and upgrades are coming slowly.  The AF moves like a glacier when it comes to big bucks for CAP (Surrogate Predator being an obvious exception - it had immediate wartime application).

[Flying Pig]

Flying Pig:

The WSP has purchased two Churchill Navigation ARS mapping systems after previously being an Aerocomputers customer.  Not to turn this into an ad, but if you take a quick look at one of our videos, you'll see why:  ARS can do the old-fashioned side-by-side views, but once you've seen street names & parcels over live video, you'll never go back -- taking your eyes off the suspect to find out where they are at is just too dangerous:

  http://vimeo.com/6662822

Best Wishes,

--Tom Churchill
  CEO, Churchill Navigation
  http://www.churchillnavigation.com/

Thanks.  I was looking at your product earlier.  Can you PM me the details?  Costs, etc?