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SFO ->Capt

Started by Becks, June 13, 2006, 04:58:25 PM

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ZigZag911

Quote from: lordmonar on June 15, 2006, 03:51:16 PM
Okay...I don't understand something.......a Spaatz Cadet is equal to a SFO and automatically gets Capt at 21.

but an regular SFO (minimum of 21 months TIS) is only a 1st Lt at 21?



Here, I think, we have recognition of the 'time in grade', training and experience gained as a cadet officer in the process of becoming a Spaatz (C/Col)

lordmonar

Quote from: ZigZag911 on June 15, 2006, 05:24:43 PM
Quote from: lordmonar on June 15, 2006, 03:51:16 PM
Okay...I don't understand something.......a Spaatz Cadet is equal to a SFO and automatically gets Capt at 21.

but an regular SFO (minimum of 21 months TIS) is only a 1st Lt at 21?



Here, I think, we have recognition of the 'time in grade', training and experience gained as a cadet officer in the process of becoming a Spaatz (C/Col)

I can see that to a point.....but it just does not make sense.  Two 20 year olds.  One just got his Spaatz and he crosses over to the gray....and is promoted to SFO.  the other one joins CAP at 18.  In two years he makes SFO the day the ex-cadet makes spaatz and crosses over.  One year later at 21, the spaatz-en SFO puts on Capt and the other guy has 6 more months to wait.

I don't know.....it just does not sound quite right to me.

You are either being unfair to the spaatz-en by forcing him down to a lower rank.....or to the non-spaatz-en SFO by holding him back 6 months.

Maybe we should create a new FO rank called Chief Flight Officer (CFO) ;) and reserve it for ex-spaatz-ens only.  Then the reg would make more sense. >:D
PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP

arajca

For the Spaatz receipient, they are not getting Capt for being SFO, but for being Spaatzen. The fact that they are SFO is entirely irrelevent for the purposes of promotion.

Keep in mind that the Spaatz getting Capt is at the commander's discretion. The commander could just give them 1st Lt for getting the Spaatz.

BillB

You have forgotten one thing.  How long was the Spaatz cadet in CAP. Sure both at 20 years old may be SFO, The one that joined at 18 has been in CAP two-three years, the Spaatz cadet probably a MINIMUM of five years. The SFO that holds the Spaatz has been through more of the program than the SFO that joined at 18. So looking at two seniors that hold SFO is comparing oranges and apples.
Gil Robb Wilson # 19
Gil Robb Wilson # 104

ZigZag911



Here, I think, we have recognition of the 'time in grade', training and experience gained as a cadet officer in the process of becoming a Spaatz (C/Col)
[/quote]

I can see that to a point.....but it just does not make sense.  Two 20 year olds.  One just got his Spaatz and he crosses over to the gray....and is promoted to SFO.  the other one joins CAP at 18.  In two years he makes SFO the day the ex-cadet makes spaatz and crosses over.  One year later at 21, the spaatz-en SFO puts on Capt and the other guy has 6 more months to wait.

I don't know.....it just does not sound quite right to me.

You are either being unfair to the spaatz-en by forcing him down to a lower rank.....or to the non-spaatz-en SFO by holding him back 6 months.

Maybe we should create a new FO rank called Chief Flight Officer (CFO) ;) and reserve it for ex-spaatz-ens only.  Then the reg would make more sense. >:D
[/quote]

That might not be a bad ides (Chief Flight Officer), but the point is that whule the non-Spaatz joined as senior at 18 (and even if a cadet, obviously did not get as far as Mitchell), the other probably had 4 or more years cadet service prior to 'putting on the gray', much of it as a cadet officer.

BlackKnight

#25
...
Phil Boylan, Maj, CAP
DCS, Rome Composite Sqdn - GA043
http://www.romecap.org/

arajca

Quote from: BlackKnight on June 16, 2006, 06:52:06 AM
I hope someone at NHQ is browsing this board.  Meanwhile, I see it the way arajca does. We can argue intent all day long, but the black & white print in the regs rule. 
It's about time someone else sees intent vs. regs like me.

QuoteOf course perhaps we're looking at this the wrong way.  The TFO/SFO time in grade snafu is really not that big a deal compared to the CAP "professional promotions" such as the elementary school teacher who walks into CAP and picks up gold oak leaves by virtue of her "AE" teaching license (but can't tell a Cessna from a Lear), or the state legislator who never comes to meetings but automatically gets major because we hope he'll vote money for the wing.
The major disconnect with "professional promotions" is - based on my experience - most don't contribute their skills to CAP. I know of a few educators who got Capt immediately, but aren't serving as AEO or even doing AE classes. The reg requires them to be serving in an "aerospace education position at any level of CAP", but many unit commanders ignore that part. The reg (CAPR 35-5) requires similar service for all professional promotions except for Health Service personnel and Legal personnel.

Hammer

Quote from: arajca on June 16, 2006, 12:57:10 PM
The major disconnect with "professional promotions" is - based on my experience - most don't contribute their skills to CAP. I know of a few educators who got Capt immediately, but aren't serving as AEO or even doing AE classes. The reg requires them to be serving in an "aerospace education position at any level of CAP", but many unit commanders ignore that part. The reg (CAPR 35-5) requires similar service for all professional promotions except for Health Service personnel and Legal personnel.

In my Squadron, the Sq/CC won't promote Military Personnel to the CAP-Equivilent of their rank.  Nor will he promote people to the rank of 1st Lt or above.

arajca

It's commander's discretion. I know several military oficers who have joined CAP because it is cheaper to fly our a/c than the local aeroclub a/c. They came straight out an said they do not want to serve in any staff position or do ES or o-flights. Some unit commanders have said fine, here's your (insert grade insignia). While others, with a more CAP centered view, have said fine, here's your CAP cutouts. I know one squadron with two a/c that puts non-contributing pilots on the bottom of the a/c use list.

Becks

Slight update on this.  It looks like Sept 7 (updated my membership from cadet to senior back on Dec 7) I will be eligable to be promoted to TFO(6 months TiG as FO and tech rating).  Now to get SFO it seems to say it is required to to have 12 months TiG as TFO and complete level 2.  Well lucky me...my bithday is August 10...so I will hit 21 one month prior to being eligable to make SFO...yay.  :-\ 

BBATW

MIKE

You still need to have 18 months TIG as an SFO and/or 1st Lt to be eligible for Capt though.
Mike Johnston

Becks

Quote from: MIKE on August 01, 2006, 05:28:03 PM
You still need to have 18 months TIG as an SFO and/or 1st Lt to be eligible for Capt though.

I know sir, I just found it rather ironic that like the previously mentioned member in the thread, I too would miss getting SFO by 1 month as well.

BBATW

BillB

I don't remember seeing where a senior can't earn SFO? Or where the Flight Officer grades are for 18-21 year olds only.  Am I wrong?
Gil Robb Wilson # 19
Gil Robb Wilson # 104

Pylon

Quote from: BillB on August 01, 2006, 09:07:20 PM
I don't remember seeing where a senior can't earn SFO? Or where the Flight Officer grades are for 18-21 year olds only.  Am I wrong?

Under CAPR 35-5, Section A (General Provisions), subsection 1-b states:

Quote from: CAPR 35-5b. Flight Officer Grades. Senior members who are ineligible for officer grade because of the minimum age criteria (21 years) may qualify for appointment or promotion to flight officer grades as outlined in section F.

Clearly, the Flight Officer grades, as indicated by the statement making the provisions for such grades, are intended for those senior members who are not yet eligible for commissioned officer grade (aka: under 21).

Moving right on, this is the more applicable regulation here from CAPR 35-5, Section G (Flight Officer Grades), subsection 30 states:

Quote from: CAPR 35-5
SECTION G - FLIGHT OFFICER GRADES
30. General. Only senior members under 21 years of age will be appointed to or promoted to the flight officer grades.

I think that makes it very clear.  ;)
Michael F. Kieloch, Maj, CAP

BillB

It makes it very clear, but it doesn't answer the question, or at least part of the question. If SM Jones is apointed a FO at 18 and by age 21 has SFO, but not the time in grade, what's to prevent him from staying a SFO until he completes the time in grade as SFO? Where does it say he has to be promoted to 1Lt at age 21, or if you'll pardon the expression "be commissioned" at age 21?
Gil Robb Wilson # 19
Gil Robb Wilson # 104

SarDragon

Quote from: BillB on August 01, 2006, 11:17:19 PM
It makes it very clear, but it doesn't answer the question, or at least part of the question. If SM Jones is apointed a FO at 18 and by age 21 has SFO, but not the time in grade, what's to prevent him from staying a SFO until he completes the time in grade as SFO? Where does it say he has to be promoted to 1Lt at age 21, or if you'll pardon the expression "be commissioned" at age 21?

FOs of all ilk become SMWOG upon turning 21, until the requisite Form 2 is sent through the chain.

Quote from: CAPR35-530. General. Only senior members under 21 years of age will be appointed to or promoted to the flight officer grades. This category is designed as a transition for cadets transferring to senior member status and for those senior members who are otherwise eligible for CAP officer grade except that they have not yet reached the minimum age of 21. Upon reaching age 21, the member will be appointed to an appropriate officer grade or will be classified as a senior member without grade until he or she is eligible for promotion to officer grade. NOTE: See figure 2.

Quote from: CAPR35-5, Figure 2Promotion | Minimum           |
To        | Skill Level       | Time-In-Grade
          |                   |
2d Lt     | Level 1           | 6 months as senior member
1st Lt    | Tech Rating       | 12 months as 2d Lt or TFO 
          | (Specialty Track) |(or combination thereof)
Captain   | Level II          | 18 months as 1st Lt or SFO
                              |(or combination thereof)

[All emphasis mine]

The first bold text answers your Qs. The second bold text amplifies my initial statement. Looks pretty clear to me. YMMV.
Dave Bowles
Maj, CAP
AT1, USN Retired
50 Year Member
Mitchell Award (unnumbered)
C/WO, CAP, Ret

BillB

Dave....You're 100% correct.  What I was thinking was the original FO/Warrent Officer program.  In that a senior member could be appointed Warrent Officer, title later changed to Flight Officer when USAF dropped the Warrent grades. And, the time in grade requirement included cadet time, not just senior member time in grade, but there was also a training requirement, other than level 1 and CPPT.
Gil Robb Wilson # 19
Gil Robb Wilson # 104

ZigZag911

And if I may throw my two cents worth in, we ought to return to something like that system.....require the AFIADL CAP Officer Course for 'commissioned' grades.....which should be a requirement (earned 2 LT or better) prior to appointment as squadron commander, Capt or above for group commander