Epaulets...whats the truth?

[biomed441]

So here I am, stiring up what is likely going to be another chastised thread. God forbid we talk about epaulets again.   Honestly I dont like the idea myself but I can't find an answer anywhere on this forum so I'll ask the question.

Who are the grey epaulets without grade for?  I am currently a SM, and when I asked my commander about them, he said they are not for SM without grade (That wonderful 6 month period), only for NCO's.  I read somewhere else in one of the threads that also confimred that they are not for SM without grade.

Contrary to what I have heard from the above mentioned, I was asked if I would be willing to assist with a cadet competition this weekend and they needed someone, preferably with cadet experience who could administer uniform inspections.  I met the criteria so I said sure, but then I was asked if I had a full blue uniform. Again yes. Then I was asked If I had grey epaulets. I responded no, and was told I couldn't administer the inspections since now I no longer have a complete uniform.  I'm not all that upset about not doing the inspection, but I would hate to think I've been wearing a blue uniform thats been out of reg for the last 2 months.

So, whats the real truth behind this? I'm in a way a bit of a uniform nazi as some would call it. Don't worry though I dont plan on bashing those who wear the other uniforms. I dont care what uniform someone wears as long as its worn properly. Which is why this issue bothers me. Something about being in a non reg uniform that just makes me go bleh. 

If someone can point out where it defines what the epaulets without grade are for, that would be awsome.

[Hawk200]

Those eps were designed to have metal NCO rank pinned on. Vanguard allegedly has them available embroidered, but many have said that it takes a while.

It's a bit of a flip compared to the Air Force. The Air Force disallowed the wear of epaulets on blue shirts a couple (few? several?) years ago.

[BrandonKea]

At least we don't have the Maroon Epaulets anymore...

As a SMWOG (Senior Member without Grade), you should wear the CAP Lapel insignia on both sides of your collar, much like a Cadet wears their grade insignia. (Ref. CAPM-39-1 Fig. 2-5 Note 1)

[BrandonKea]

Also, there's no mention of NCO's wearing any epaulets in 39-1 that I could find...

http://www.vanguardmil.com/store/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=6_390_408_2035_2037&sort=20a&page=2

Those seem to serve no purpose now...

[DC]

Yep, the blank gray slides were intended for NCOs. The 'grade insignia' for a SMWOG is the same as that of a C/AB, nothing on the epaulets and CAP cutouts on the collar. See Note 1 on Figure 2-5, Page 20, CAPM 39-1. The person who barred you from inspecting the cadets was ignorant of the regulations, and should not have done so.

EDIT: Never mind, BrandonKea beat me to it...

[BrandonKea]

EDIT: Never mind, BrandonKea beat me to it...

Sorry, it's REALLLY slow at work.

[Eclipse]

Contrary to what I have heard from the above mentioned, I was asked if I would be willing to assist with a cadet competition this weekend and they needed someone, preferably with cadet experience who could administer uniform inspections.  I met the criteria so I said sure, but then I was asked if I had a full blue uniform. Again yes. Then I was asked If I had grey epaulets. I responded no, and was told I couldn't administer the inspections since now I no longer have a complete uniform.  I'm not all that upset about not doing the inspection, but I would hate to think I've been wearing a blue uniform thats been out of reg for the last 2 months.

You just have to love this - people running a cadet competition who don't even know their own uniform regs.     

[notaNCO forever]

Contrary to what I have heard from the above mentioned, I was asked if I would be willing to assist with a cadet competition this weekend and they needed someone, preferably with cadet experience who could administer uniform inspections.  I met the criteria so I said sure, but then I was asked if I had a full blue uniform. Again yes. Then I was asked If I had grey epaulets. I responded no, and was told I couldn't administer the inspections since now I no longer have a complete uniform.  I'm not all that upset about not doing the inspection, but I would hate to think I've been wearing a blue uniform thats been out of reg for the last 2 months.

You just have to love this - people running a cadet competition who don't even know their own uniform regs.     

I lost a color guard comp because the people inspecting didn't know the uniform regulations; apparently it's to much work for some people to read the 39-1.

[DC]

Contrary to what I have heard from the above mentioned, I was asked if I would be willing to assist with a cadet competition this weekend and they needed someone, preferably with cadet experience who could administer uniform inspections.  I met the criteria so I said sure, but then I was asked if I had a full blue uniform. Again yes. Then I was asked If I had grey epaulets. I responded no, and was told I couldn't administer the inspections since now I no longer have a complete uniform.  I'm not all that upset about not doing the inspection, but I would hate to think I've been wearing a blue uniform thats been out of reg for the last 2 months.

You just have to love this - people running a cadet competition who don't even know their own uniform regs.     

I lost a color guard comp because the people inspecting didn't know the uniform regulations; apparently it's to much work for some people to read the 39-1.

I don't know what your wing is like, but I'd be willing to be there is some way to appeal results, you might look into it if you were wrongly penalized.

[vento]

Contrary to what I have heard from the above mentioned, I was asked if I would be willing to assist with a cadet competition this weekend and they needed someone, preferably with cadet experience who could administer uniform inspections.  I met the criteria so I said sure, but then I was asked if I had a full blue uniform. Again yes. Then I was asked If I had grey epaulets. I responded no, and was told I couldn't administer the inspections since now I no longer have a complete uniform.  I'm not all that upset about not doing the inspection, but I would hate to think I've been wearing a blue uniform thats been out of reg for the last 2 months.

You are not out of uniform if you wear the collar cutouts. According to CAPM 39-1, page 18.

1. Grade Insignia: Senior member officers wear embroidered grade insignia on gray epaulet sleeve. Senior
member NCOs and Airmen wear 3-inch or 3 1/2-inch cloth chevrons on the sleeve or embroidered gray
epaulet sleeve. Senior members without grade and NCOs and Airmen wearing chevrons on the sleeve wear the CAP lapel/collar insignia on both sides of collar.

And if you are wearing the white aviator shirt with the grey slack combination, then no epaulets and no cutouts.

[Gunner C]

This is what we get with so many uniform combinations, ever-changing regulations and interim letters, and not much training for SMs.

[JoeTomasone]

...And very few people who read 39-1 to begin with.

I've had cadets tell me that it was "too big" to read, even though 3/5 of it doesn't apply to them at all.

[Spike]

I've had cadets tell me that it was "too big" to read, even though 3/5 of it doesn't apply to them at all.

I would say there are maybe 3 pages Cadets need to concern themselves with in 39-1, and half of those pages are pictures!

[JoeTomasone]

I've had cadets tell me that it was "too big" to read, even though 3/5 of it doesn't apply to them at all.

I would say there are maybe 3 pages Cadets need to concern themselves with in 39-1, and half of those pages are pictures!

Exactly.   Read the section on Blues and the section on BDUs and 99.9% of cadets are DONE.

[Lt Oliv]

While we're on the topic I have a great Epaulet question for you folks...

Recently I showed up as my normal fuzzy (but well trimmed) self in an aviator shirt with epaulets and a pair of gray slacks.  I was told that if you do not meet AF Grooming standards, you cannot wear ANY grade insignia, to include epaulets on the Aviator style shirt. 

Instead, I was directed to wear no epaulets and obtain a nametag that contains my grade.

Now.....39-1 says nothing about not being able to wear epaulets on the aviator shirt if you have a beard (goatee), and I see no authorized nametag for that uniform that would permit you to include your grade on it. 

Normally I'd just wear the polo shirt, but I'd like to attend SLS in the near future, and you are only authorized to attend in the AF, Corporate or Aviator shirt/gray slack combo. 

Group Commander affirmed the whole "beard = no epaulets" sentiment, but I'm not finding it in the regs anywhere. 

Thoughts?

[Phil Hirons, Jr.]

Your Group CC is incorrect. There is no modification of the gray / whites for grooming standards. Any senior can where that uniform with their grade.

[Lt Oliv]

Well isn't that just plain awkward?

I've noticed a few variations of the whites and grays that I cannot find in 39-1 or any of the change letters.  One is the long sleeve aviator shirt, gray pants and a blue tie.  It is mentioned in the Level 1 training, but I can't find that anywhere either.  Am I missing just a whole block of instructions somewhere?

[ßτε]

Well isn't that just plain awkward?

I've noticed a few variations of the whites and grays that I cannot find in 39-1 or any of the change letters.  One is the long sleeve aviator shirt, gray pants and a blue tie.  It is mentioned in the Level 1 training, but I can't find that anywhere either.  Am I missing just a whole block of instructions somewhere?

CAPM 39-1 Page 75

[Rotorhead]

While we're on the topic I have a great Epaulet question for you folks...

Recently I showed up as my normal fuzzy (but well trimmed) self in an aviator shirt with epaulets and a pair of gray slacks.  I was told that if you do not meet AF Grooming standards, you cannot wear ANY grade insignia, to include epaulets on the Aviator style shirt. 

Instead, I was directed to wear no epaulets and obtain a nametag that contains my grade.

Now.....39-1 says nothing about not being able to wear epaulets on the aviator shirt if you have a beard (goatee), and I see no authorized nametag for that uniform that would permit you to include your grade on it. 

Normally I'd just wear the polo shirt, but I'd like to attend SLS in the near future, and you are only authorized to attend in the AF, Corporate or Aviator shirt/gray slack combo. 

Group Commander affirmed the whole "beard = no epaulets" sentiment, but I'm not finding it in the regs anywhere. 

Thoughts?

Yes, you can't find it because it doesn't exist.

It really annoys me when people make up their own regs. We have more than enough real ones already.

White and grey with ep sleeves is allowed for fat and/or fuzzy

White and blue with USAF ep sleeves is allowed for fat but not fuzzy.

[JoeTomasone]

Your Group CC is incorrect. There is no modification of the gray / whites for grooming standards. Any senior can where that uniform with their grade.

Actually, the grade is REQUIRED.

Deviations from 39-1 are not authorized; so if it's not in 39-1, authorized BY 39-1 (such as items the Wing/CC can authorize) or in an ICL, you cannot do it.