Just a Suggestion ... to solicit some discussion

Started by Chaplaindon, May 26, 2006, 01:44:19 PM

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Chaplaindon

Considering that I have consistently called for (debated for) uniformity in CAP uniforms, I have another suggestion for discussion.

As an active ES participant in a variety of mission specialties, I see a shortcoming of our non-BDU/BBU/flight suit uniforms for mission and day-to-day service dress options. Whether the USAF "class-B," of the new corporate "blues" or "grays," I think that they are inadequate for wear for mission staff work. Some might argue that staff should wear BDU/BBU/FS instead, however most of the SAREX/EVALs that I have attended require the staff to wear a class-b-type of uniform. Sadly there is neither uniformity in the style of uniform (USAF blues, corp blues, corp grays, golf shirt, etc.) making the staff look anything but uniform.

Furthermore, the USAF and/or corp blue/grays are problematic for such operational wear. They show dust and dirt ever so readily. They wrinkle very easily. They can be uncomfortable in heat (lots of bases near me lack adequate A/C, if they have it at all). And the mix of uniforms makes us look un-uniform and there-in, unprofessional.

My suggestion: make a functional "operational" uniform that all SMs (IMHO, cadets need to remain in the USAF/CAP uniform for reasons of their mission) regardless of H/W could wear. I would suggest that the 1950's-1960's USAF Khaki uniform modified for the 21st century would make a lot of sense.

Wear a poly/cotton (permanent press) khaki (short or long sleeve) collared shirt (no epaulets) with khaki trousers (with permanent creases). Wear the blue USAF belt with bright buckle, blue USAF flight cap with grade IAW the new corporate uniform standards (w/ fullsize metal grade), hard MINIATURE metal grade insignia on the collars, and the new blue 2-line name tag. Black shoes and socks.

This uniform would be handsome, professional and functional for mission base wear, squadron meetings, and other functions where the so-called "class-B" uniform would normally be worn.

It would be both functional and comfortable and likely easy wear, pack and care for in "the field."

Above all it would make the SMs look professional and uniform. And uniformity adds significant efficiency to an operation (hence the reason the military wears them).

Just a suggestion for discussion.
Rev. Don Brown, Ch., Lt Col, CAP (Ret.)
Former Deputy Director for CISM at CAP/HQ
Gill Robb Wilson Award # 1660
ACS-Chaplain, VFC, IPFC, DSO, NSO, USCG Auxiliary
AUXOP

Al Sayre

Sounds OK, but I'm not sure about the Blue Belt, I think Khaki would look better.  Unfortunately, someone would probably mistake us for Naval Officers and we'd be in trouble with two services over uniforms...
Lt Col Al Sayre
MS Wing Staff Dude
Admiral, Great Navy of the State of Nebraska
GRW #2787

Chaplaindon

The blue belt (worn IAW the USAF khaki uniform conventions of the 1950's and early 60's) would help differentiate.

And the blue against the khaki --believe it or not-- is quite handsome.
Rev. Don Brown, Ch., Lt Col, CAP (Ret.)
Former Deputy Director for CISM at CAP/HQ
Gill Robb Wilson Award # 1660
ACS-Chaplain, VFC, IPFC, DSO, NSO, USCG Auxiliary
AUXOP

AlphaSigOU

Now THAT'S a good idea, Chaplaindon... but ya know since the NB/NEC didn't suggest it, it ain't gonna fly! ;D
Lt Col Charles E. (Chuck) Corway, CAP
Gill Robb Wilson Award (#2901 - 2011)
Amelia Earhart Award (#1257 - 1982) - C/Major (retired)
Billy Mitchell Award (#2375 - 1981)
Administrative/Personnel/Professional Development Officer
Nellis Composite Squadron (PCR-NV-069)
KJ6GHO - NAR 45040

mikeylikey

For those members sitting at the base camp, mission TOC or wherever supporting a mission in an administrative or support role, why cant we just say "here's the CAP polo shirt (whatever color is decided), get some khaki trousers, and wear brown or black shoes.  To make everyone happy, they can wear their own belt as long a it is black or brown with a Conservative silver buckle.  Then if you need to identify who is in charge  or for identification you get the new picture id card, attach a lanyard or clip to it and wear it on your shirt.  Lets think in terms of being comfortable.
What's up monkeys?

Chaplaindon

Mikey,

My concern with a strictly "comfort-based" paradigm for uniforms has to do with professionalism. IMHO the golf shirt "uniform" belongs on the golfcourse or perhaps --at BEST-- as a hot weather flying (ONLY) uniform, particularly suited to non-SAR/DR flying (e.g. glider flights or powered O-Flights). Comfort is, to my mind, only one of several elements that should be considered for selecting an (my term) "operational staff uniform (OSU)"

I think we would present a VERY UN-professional look if --for example-- our IC did his/her media or family briefing looking like s/he just finished the back-9 at LaCosta.

A military "style" uniform that is easy to maintain, comfortable to wear, and can be worn by ALL SMs regardless of H/W issues (e.g. a real UNIFORM) is why the khaki OSU seems to make sense. With all of the new wringle-free, high cotton content khaki fabrics on the market (e.g. "Dockers") a very comfy yet professiona/military uniform could be produced that would meet those goals.

Good discussion ...
Rev. Don Brown, Ch., Lt Col, CAP (Ret.)
Former Deputy Director for CISM at CAP/HQ
Gill Robb Wilson Award # 1660
ACS-Chaplain, VFC, IPFC, DSO, NSO, USCG Auxiliary
AUXOP

Becks

#6
Quote from: Chaplaindon on May 26, 2006, 02:44:38 PM
My concern with a strictly "comfort-based" paradigm for uniforms has to do with professionalism. IMHO the golf shirt "uniform" belongs on the golfcourse or perhaps --at BEST-- as a hot weather flying (ONLY) uniform

....a very comfy yet professiona/military uniform could be produced that would meet those goals.


I agree whole heartedly sir, you have brought up some great points.  Also I personally love the look of the old khaki uniforms, and to me they seem more versatile for wear.  Living in SC I must say the blue's pants get hot pretty quickly, khaki would be an easy solution to this.
You could just adapt the Navy or Marine Corps khaki's couldnt you?
EDIT: I got bored and played with a couple navy uniforms so people can see what blue and khaki/tan looks like.

BBATW

Chaplaindon

Drew,

Thanks for the illustrations. I wish I could do that.

I would certainly consider simply "borrrowing" the USN/USMC/NOAA/USPHS khakis and then adding the CAP blue accessories. That would save money and development time.

I likely would suggest that ribbons NOT be worn --this is to be an "operational" uniform, however badges could/should be worn (e.g. wings, GTM badge, qual badges, chaplain badge, commander badge, etc.). 
However, Unless there was a significant outcry to the contrary, I wouldn't have the skirt be part of the uniform. Males and females would wear trousers.

A V-Neck T-Shirt would look better too ... IMHO.

I might even suggest a black "wooly-pully" sweater as a cold-weather option along with a khaki waist-length jacket with metal grade on the shoulder epaulets.

Chap Don
Rev. Don Brown, Ch., Lt Col, CAP (Ret.)
Former Deputy Director for CISM at CAP/HQ
Gill Robb Wilson Award # 1660
ACS-Chaplain, VFC, IPFC, DSO, NSO, USCG Auxiliary
AUXOP

MIKE

Quote from: Chaplaindon on May 26, 2006, 02:44:38 PM
My concern with a strictly "comfort-based" paradigm for uniforms has to do with professionalism. IMHO the golf shirt "uniform" belongs on the golfcourse or perhaps --at BEST-- as a hot weather flying (ONLY) uniform, particularly suited to non-SAR/DR flying (e.g. glider flights or powered O-Flights). Comfort is, to my mind, only one of several elements that should be considered for selecting an (my term) "operational staff uniform (OSU)"

I dunno... I think the golf shirt might be the thing for this sitution...  Take a look at some of the FEMA or HLS people doing press briefings more or less on-site.  What are they wearing... Golf shirts!

Quick fix:  Use the existing blue golf shirt with the embroidered seal... I'm not so keen on the other embroidery options, it would be cheaper and more uniform to leave off the wings etc.  I don't think the gray slacks look good, prefer that you'd go with khaki/tan BDU trousers (Maybe the existing blue ones) worn with the blue BDU belt un-bloused over normal shoes.
Mike Johnston

mikeylikey

Quote from: MIKE on May 26, 2006, 03:45:39 PM
Quote from: Chaplaindon on May 26, 2006, 02:44:38 PM
My concern with a strictly "comfort-based" paradigm for uniforms has to do with professionalism. IMHO the golf shirt "uniform" belongs on the golfcourse or perhaps --at BEST-- as a hot weather flying (ONLY) uniform, particularly suited to non-SAR/DR flying (e.g. glider flights or powered O-Flights). Comfort is, to my mind, only one of several elements that should be considered for selecting an (my term) "operational staff uniform (OSU)"

I dunno... I think the golf shirt might be the thing for this situation...  Take a look at some of the FEMA or HLS people doing press briefings more or less on-site.  What are they wearing... Golf shirts!

Quick fix:  Use the existing blue golf shirt with the embroidered seal... I'm not so keen on the other embroidery options, it would be cheaper and more uniform to leave off the wings etc.  I don't think the gray slacks look good. prefer that you'd go with khaki/tan BDU trousers (Maybe the existing blue ones) worn with the blue BDU belt un-bloused over normal shoes.

I would have to agree.  I do see the need for this type of uniform that Chaplaindon has presented.  However, like they do in the business world, dress casual if you do not interact with anyone inside the office, throw on a tie when you interact with people outside the office.  It is all about appearance.  I certainly don't want to wear my dress clothes when all I do is sit at my desk, but then again, I do keep a tie and a nice dress shirt ready in case I have to leave my desk.
  I say reserve the "military" looking uniforms for people that will be interacting with the government agencies, local communities or general public.  Then again, if we did that then it would defeat the purpose of "being uniform".  Just my simple opinion.  Anyway, NHQ probably has the next change in the works.
What's up monkeys?

Chaplaindon

Mike,

Thanks for your insight. I disagree about FEMA and DHS.

Based upon the demonstrated performance of many of the FEMA/DHS bureaucrats during Katrina/Rita --like good-ol' "Brownie"-- I am not sure I want to equate their appearance/uniforms with a paradigm of professionalism and/or operational efficiency.

It was the military ... and DHS' armed services "wing," the USCG, that excelled during the recovery. Frankly, I'd rather look like the military than some golf shirt wearing bureaucrat.

Additonally, as CAP must interact with the real-life armed services from the USAF 9at our SAREX' and EVALs to the NG and USCG, etc. during a disaster, having a military appearance would IMHO be useful and expeditous operationally.
Rev. Don Brown, Ch., Lt Col, CAP (Ret.)
Former Deputy Director for CISM at CAP/HQ
Gill Robb Wilson Award # 1660
ACS-Chaplain, VFC, IPFC, DSO, NSO, USCG Auxiliary
AUXOP

MIKE

Quote from: Chaplaindon on May 26, 2006, 03:59:26 PM
It was the military ... and DHS' armed services "wing," the USCG, that excelled during the recovery. Frankly, I'd rather look like the military than some golf shirt wearing bureaucrat.

I think there is a case for not looking like the military for the people back at mission base. YMMV.

BTW: The military... like ADM Allen etc were wearing the appropriate utility uniforms (ODU, BDU, ACU) or bags.  If CAP wants to be like the military then we should be wearing the Field Uniform, BDUs or bags as appropriate, and leave the dress uniforms at home. 

Really... if the mission base area is less than completely sterile... I'm wearing BDUs.
Mike Johnston

Chaplaindon

Mike,

I agree with you fundamentally. I would wear BDU myself, if I were at a forward deployed base.

That having been said, far more time and mandays are expended in training events that routinely prohibit the wear of BDU/FS for staff members -- the rationale escapes me, but those are the rules. In addition we have classroom training events and weekly meetings (all in support of the missions of CAP).

We need a uniform that is uniform, that all SMs can wear. It is unrealistic to expect that all SMs will reduce their weight such that it meets USAF enlistment H/W standards (+10%) so we will not be uniform in the USAF blues.

Furthermore, the CAP Corporate Blues/Grays are, as I proffered above, maintenance intensive ... and INHO needlessly so.

The Khakis are/would be:

1. Military in appearance.
2. Readily available (presuming the "borrowing" of the USN/USMC/NOAA/USPHS uniforms and modifying them to CAP distinctiveness).
3. Cooler (lighter in color and more reflective of light) than the blues and ESPECIALLY the dark colored BDUs which can be stiffling.
4. Don't show dirt/dust/scuffs as readily.
5. Reflective of the historic uniforms of CAP (e.g. WWII coastal patrol) and the USAF/USAAF (WWII thru early Vietnam). It seems that the USAF Uniform Board is considering a nostalgic (IMHO UNSIGHTLY) "Hap Arnold" uniform that echoes WWII (and before) styles. CAP would be doing the same.
6. All of our SMs could wear this uniform thus providing actual UNIFORMITY.

Just the sort of discussion I was seeking, lets hear from others.

Chap Don
Rev. Don Brown, Ch., Lt Col, CAP (Ret.)
Former Deputy Director for CISM at CAP/HQ
Gill Robb Wilson Award # 1660
ACS-Chaplain, VFC, IPFC, DSO, NSO, USCG Auxiliary
AUXOP

AlphaSigOU

I like the idea of a distinctive operational khaki uniform Chaplaindon suggested... white shirts are magnets for dirt or other schmutz that will quickly ruin them. BDUs and CAP DFUs are great for ground teams, green or blue zoom bags keep the zipper-suited sun gods happy.

IIRC (and youse Navy guys can correct me if I'm wrong :)) there are two types of Navy khakis - CNTs (Certified Navy Twill) and a doubleknit polyester.
Lt Col Charles E. (Chuck) Corway, CAP
Gill Robb Wilson Award (#2901 - 2011)
Amelia Earhart Award (#1257 - 1982) - C/Major (retired)
Billy Mitchell Award (#2375 - 1981)
Administrative/Personnel/Professional Development Officer
Nellis Composite Squadron (PCR-NV-069)
KJ6GHO - NAR 45040

Al Sayre

AlphaSigOU is right about the two types.  IIRC, on board ship, the Officers and Chiefs wore the CNT, and the doubleknit polyester uniforms (a material I generally hate with a passion) were worn ashore and in shore duty billets where "looking good" was a priority.  The CNT has to be ironed and starched to look good, but IMHO it is a much more comfortable uniform.
Lt Col Al Sayre
MS Wing Staff Dude
Admiral, Great Navy of the State of Nebraska
GRW #2787

ZigZag911

I offered the khaki suggestion (on another thread here) as an alternative to the new corporate uniform recently adopted by NEC.....back in my early cadet days, it was still USAF & CAP summer uniform.

Based on that experience, I can tell you, Chaplain, that light tan is not significantly easier to keep clean than white....and much more difficult than gray!

While uniformity is great, we do have a variety of operational functions; flight suits are appropriate for aircrew, BDUs for ground teams.  Mission managers (and UDF teams) are another story...generally the management team will wear whatever fits the individual's 'other' mission specialty (Flight suit or BDUs, as appropriate)....

Chaplaindon

I think I would recommend a two-step process --if CAP ever got around to approving this hypothetical khaki uniform-- to enact its wear.

Step 1 ... Wear he USN/etc. CNT khaki uniform for the short-term.

Step 2 ... Have Vanguard (or someone) manufacture a USN khaki look-a-like uniform (or USAF 1950's-60's khaki look-a-like) uniform in a high percentage cotton blend (no-iron) with permanent creases. Perhaps a "Dockers-like" no-iron twill, just for the durability of the fabric.

That would ensure that you have the comfort of the CNT khakis without the mandatory ironing and starching. The fabric technology exists to create an attractive/professional-looking, easy-care non-doubleknit (ick!) khaki uniform.But that might take a year or so.

Having the exisiting CNT USN/etc. uniforms as a 1-2 year option would be helpful.

Thanks for the info Al.
Rev. Don Brown, Ch., Lt Col, CAP (Ret.)
Former Deputy Director for CISM at CAP/HQ
Gill Robb Wilson Award # 1660
ACS-Chaplain, VFC, IPFC, DSO, NSO, USCG Auxiliary
AUXOP

thefischNX01

Personally, i would just go for the khaki shirt against the blues pants and belt.  Not a drastic change, but different enough to be noticed. 
Capt. Colin Fischer, CAP
Deputy Commander for Cadets
Easton Composite Sqdn
Maryland Wing
http://whats-a-flight-officer.blogspot.com/

arajca

Quote from: thefischNX01 on May 26, 2006, 06:43:01 PM
Personally, i would just go for the khaki shirt against the blues pants and belt.  Not a drastic change, but different enough to be noticed. 
I'd be more incline to support something like this, rather than a full khaki uniform. It's less money for the member to lay out. On the shirt, minimal bling - grade insignia, name plate, one aeronautical/GT/EMT/Chaplain badge. That's it. The command badge shouldn't be worn because it would be misleading - the IC may not a a unit commander.

Use a stain resistant fabric to help keep it clean. Most of the time, the dust/dirt that get on my white shirts tends to be tan or light brown so on a khaki shirt, it'd be less visible.

BillB

The 1960's khaki 1505 uniform required little if any ironing. And it was worn with blue flight cap, blue belt and black shoes.  Basically it was a summer weight uniform and thus the current USAF blue windbreaker could be worn with it without it looking 100% like an USAF uniform. The uniform has either skirt or pants for females.
The first khaki uniform for CAP was authorized right after CAP was organized, so CAP being in a khaki uniform takes us back to our roots.
Gil Robb Wilson # 19
Gil Robb Wilson # 104