Missing Aircraft Search Team (M.A.S.T.) Critical of Air Craft SAR

[calguy]

In the Fossett search, CAWG contrary to popular belief NEVER did an after action report.  NVWG had the radar track for the Fossett crash site and searched it once and withheld vital target information from CAWG.  Pacific Region NEVER stepped in to fix any of these faults.  CAWG, NVWG & Pac Rgn has an out of site, out of mind policy.  Later the CAWG DO had the grid searched dozens of times but we cannot find any record of who searched it.  The problem is with the wing CCs and Pac Rgn.  When Ed Lewis died, all interest was stopped!

[Short Field]

I flew one week of search and the last week as AOBD on the Fossett Search.  CAWG had everything we had at our mission base.  CAWG had a very experienced CAP liasion officer colocated with us and passed everything we had to CAWG at Bishop.  He also coordinated on deconflicting the search grids each day.  I also never saw a radar track of Steve Fossett's airplane.  There was detailed work done on raw radar data but nothing that could be called "Fossett's track".

[us11cav]

A civil discussion on the search for N240R (Steve Fossett) would seem very useful, but I feel the title of this thread sets the wrong tone.

In our 2 1/2 year search for Cessna N2700Q--after the official search was suspended--we received critical help from some CAP pilots, and also from friends of Steve Fosset. These people all believed--as we do--that there is no place for a "Them versus Us" attitude when it comes to finding downed aircraft. This belief should apply to all wing-on-wing relationships as well as any interface between public and private searchers. If a plane is found--and families get closure--everyone wins.

If someone would like to begin a thread on N240R with that in mind, I would love to share some facts I know about that search. 

[california IC]

I flew one week of search and the last week as AOBD on the Fossett Search.  CAWG had everything we had at our mission base.  CAWG had a very experienced CAP liasion officer colocated with us and passed everything we had to CAWG at Bishop.  He also coordinated on deconflicting the search grids each day.  I also never saw a radar track of Steve Fossett's airplane.  There was detailed work done on raw radar data but nothing that could be called "Fossett's track".

There was a Radar track that CAP had on Tuesday, the 2nd day of the search.  It was Fossett's track.  Nevada search the California grid on Tuesday and ruled it out. 

[SARPilotNY]

Per the California DO Lt. Col. Butts:
Nevada had the true LKP and only flew the location once for  well less than one hour.  It was discounted since Nevada Wing had a new and more accurate LKP, a witness report well in Nevada.  California's IC was told the location had been searched by NVWG with a high POD and not to fly the LKP again.  NVWG was telling CAWG what grids to search since they were the incharge of planning for California.  I have seen the track and it ends within a  hundred feet of the Fossett's crash.  Why NVWG didn't see the fresh burn and metal is a mystery.

[D2SK]

I am absolutely shocked that some of you all are discussing the operational details of this search in the public forum.  You should all be reprimanded and immediately cease and desist.  It's irresponsible and very bad form.  Sheesh people, c'mon. 

[heliodoc]

Reprimand??

Cease and desist??

Wait til all those requirements for After Action Reviews (AAR's) become the norm if CAP starts accepting any DHS money...

Those requirements are done after major exercises for the EMA's for disaster exercises and like Iowa's floods of last year...there's an ARR for both the EOC operation and the operation in general.  Check it out on LLIS.gov.  Get your self am account.  Pretty soon CAP will be required to do it.  Heck, CERT is already doing AND they are volunteers, too

I'd lighten up on that cease and desist stuff.  I appears to be normal transfer of knowledge

Some more CAP secret squirrel stuff, EH?

[D2SK]

A formal review isn't a MMQB on an internet forum.  This isn't the appropriate time or place for it.  Stop being so coy with the secret squirrel crap.

Reprimand??

Cease and desist??

Wait til all those requirements for After Action Reviews (AAR's) become the norm if CAP starts accepting any DHS money...

Those requirements are done after major exercises for the EMA's for disaster exercises and like Iowa's floods of last year...there's an ARR for both the EOC operation and the operation in general.  Check it out on LLIS.gov.  Get your self am account.  Pretty soon CAP will be required to do it.  Heck, CERT is already doing AND they are volunteers, too

I'd lighten up on that cease and desist stuff.  I appears to be normal transfer of knowledge

Some more CAP secret squirrel stuff, EH?

[Short Field]

Per the California DO Lt. Col. Butts:
Nevada had the true LKP and only flew the location once for  well less than one hour.  It was discounted since Nevada Wing had a new and more accurate LKP, a witness report well in Nevada.  California's IC was told the location had been searched by NVWG with a high POD and not to fly the LKP again.  NVWG was telling CAWG what grids to search since they were the incharge of planning for California.  I have seen the track and it ends within a  hundred feet of the Fossett's crash.  Why NVWG didn't see the fresh burn and metal is a mystery.

I flew as a MO during the second week of the search and was never briefed on a radar track.   Again, I, as the AOBD for the third week of the search,  never saw a radar track - peroid.   I was hitching a ride in several  morings that week with Lt Col Butts from the motel.  And then we sat about 6 foot apart during the day.   If anyone had it, it was not provided to the NV crews - because I was briefing them.  We did have raw radar data (which I never saw) but there was nothing that tied it to a specific airplane.  If people are claiming they saw something or had something, it would have been really nice for them to have shared it during the search.   Especially if they had a radar track that led to within 100 ft of the wreckage.  That would have been awesome.

The following is from the CAP press release after the wreckage was located:

"I'm glad they found the crash site," said Lt. Col. Ronald Butts, a pilot who served as a liaison officer between CAP and other agencies involved in the massive 2007 search, which began on Labor Day when Fossett left a Nevada ranch owned by hotel magnate Barron Hilton and never returned.

"Perhaps this will bring some closure for his wife Peggy," said Butts, who added that Fossett had "a tremendous amount of friends worldwide" who were concerned when he disappeared. "They get closure from this, too," he said.

The discovery in the Mammoth Lakes area comes nearly one year to the day after CAP officially suspended its search for Fossett on Oct. 3, 2007. Hundreds of CAP members from eight states, including California and Nevada, participated in the search, the largest in modern history. Other agencies, including representatives from Hilton's Flying M ranch, searched the area as well.

"We flew that area almost every day searching from different angles and flying during different times of the day," said Butts. "The area was well-covered, because we had a radar track that led there."

[SARPilotNY]

Per the California DO Lt. Col. Butts:
Nevada had the true LKP and only flew the location once for  well less than one hour.  It was discounted since Nevada Wing had a new and more accurate LKP, a witness report well in Nevada.  California's IC was told the location had been searched by NVWG with a high POD and not to fly the LKP again.  NVWG was telling CAWG what grids to search since they were the incharge of planning for California.  I have seen the track and it ends within a  hundred feet of the Fossett's crash.  Why NVWG didn't see the fresh burn and metal is a mystery.

I flew as a MO during the second week of the search and was never briefed on a radar track.   Again, I, as the AOBD for the third week of the search,  never saw a radar track - peroid.   I was hitching a ride in several  morings that week with Lt Col Butts from the motel.  And then we sat about 6 foot apart during the day.   If anyone had it, it was not provided to the NV crews - because I was briefing them.  We did have raw radar data (which I never saw) but there was nothing that tied it to a specific airplane.  If people are claiming they saw something or had something, it would have been really nice for them to have shared it during the search.   Especially if they had a radar track that led to within 100 ft of the wreckage.  That would have been awesome.

The following is from the CAP press release after the wreckage was located:

"I'm glad they found the crash site," said Lt. Col. Ronald Butts, a pilot who served as a liaison officer between CAP and other agencies involved in the massive 2007 search, which began on Labor Day when Fossett left a Nevada ranch owned by hotel magnate Barron Hilton and never returned.

"Perhaps this will bring some closure for his wife Peggy," said Butts, who added that Fossett had "a tremendous amount of friends worldwide" who were concerned when he disappeared. "They get closure from this, too," he said.

The discovery in the Mammoth Lakes area comes nearly one year to the day after CAP officially suspended its search for Fossett on Oct. 3, 2007. Hundreds of CAP members from eight states, including California and Nevada, participated in the search, the largest in modern history. Other agencies, including representatives from Hilton's Flying M ranch, searched the area as well.

"We flew that area almost every day searching from different angles and flying during different times of the day," said Butts. "The area was well-covered, because we had a radar track that led there."

I think Col. Butts said it all...
He was at Mindon, Nevada and had the track there as well as all the NVWG command staff.  NVWG was assigning all the grids in Nevada and California.  NVWG was flying California grids.  He had somebody searching the radar's LKP dozens of times  but I understand it was not done by CAWG aircraft, it was NVWG's crews.  How did they miss the burn and debris field?  I understand they were routinly getting 40% PODs in the Sierras in less than 2 hours!  Maybe our check pilots need to get checked!

[SarDragon]

I think Col. Butts said it all...
He was at Mindon, Nevada and had the track there as well as all the NVWG command staff.  NVWG was assigning all the grids in Nevada and California.  NVWG was flying California grids.  He had somebody searching the radar's LKP dozens of times  but I understand it was not done by CAWG aircraft, it was NVWG's crews.  How did they miss the burn and debris field?  I understand they were routinly getting 40% PODs in the Sierras in less than 2 hours!  Maybe our check pilots need to get checked!

From what I saw of the pix taken by the team that found/initially investigated the wreckage, the debris looked so similar in color to the rocks, that detection from the air would have been very difficult. Since the scene was so old, I don't know about the burn marks.

YMMV.

[wingnut55]

but lets not forget The CAlifornia Highway patrolman who saw the plane over mamouth AP at 3oo feet reported it to the Neveda Highway Patrol the day after the foesett mission started.

The guy was not interviewed for 10 days by CAP(And only by accident)

     Nevada discounted the report and him as 'Not Credible"

             This Highway patrol man identifies the type and color and making a left turn over Lake Crowley.

The entire focus had been centered around the illusionary sighting of a FARMER in Nevada.

[admin: loose the bold and large text size!]

[wingnut55]

.Yes this all should have been discussed years earlier, but because CAP has been allowed to deteriorate into almost warring WING factions fighting over territory this will never change.

How did we come to this? An airplane fly's across three states and we run three different searches? Multiple mission bases, Critical Information and Intelligence being withheld or denied to other CAP wings! Is this happening?

                                  This is a National CAP issue and the ultimate responsibility of the U.S. Air Force to correct. I say BUST UP THE WINGS, Go to a CAP REGIONAL COMMAND STRUCTURE.

SURELY THE NUMBERS OF AIRCRAFT AND RESOURCES NOW ARE ALMOST ½ OF WHAT THEY WERE THIRTY YEARS AGO??

THAT INCLUDES MEMBER OWNED AIRCRAFT

THE NEW CAP REGIONS SHOULD BE THE FEMA/ HOMELAND SECURITY REGIONS FOR SPAN OF CONTROL ISSUES AND CAP COMMAND STRUCTURE

[Short Field]

NVWG was flying California grids.  He had somebody searching the radar's LKP dozens of times  but I understand it was not done by CAWG aircraft, it was NVWG's crews.  How did they miss the burn and debris field?

CAWG sorties flew that grid.