Leather Nametag

[es_g0d]

I came across this on the Vanguard website today:
http://www.vanguardmil.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=13583

This bothers me.  Vanguard is defacto writing uniform regulations because they are the only "endorsed" or "official" supplier of CAP uniform items. 

I have a twofold problem with their example nametag.  First, it doesn't conform to the norm by "stacking" badges left-to-right instead of above-and-below as we would expect.  What does 39-1 say about nametags?  Very little, unfortunately.  So Vanguard just splashes something on a piece of black leather and there you go, that's their official version.

As a reference, Page 34 of CAPR 39-1 says: 2. Leather Name Patch: Will include name, grade, and aeronautical rating. Patch will be centered on left breast above pocket.  Cloth name patch is not authorized.  If no aeronautical rating, a title such as "Mission Scanner" may be used.

Secondly, we've lost the specifics in 39-1 that stated exactly what was to be placed on the nametag.  Now its a free-for-all.  What specifically bothered me was that Vanguard specifically states that cadets will abbreviate their rank as "CDT."  Baloney.  39-1 used to specify "CADET" be written on the nametag.  That's in line with Other another prominent USAF cadet corps as well.

At the end of the day, nametags like this look clownish.  Our USAF brethren simply wonder, agape, at what we're thinking--even if we're following our regulations!  We need to be specific with the requirements for the nametag again, and have it conform to heritage and norm from our parent organization.

I must say that I am NOT Mr. Strict when it comes to uniforms.  As I've migrated from cadetdom long ago, I've stepped back to see the big picture.  People who know me would, hopefully, agree with this statement.  But even I have limits, and this one strikes a bad chord.

[SJFedor]

Scott, if you need a better source for CAP purposes, especially if you wanna do the "dual cool", let me know, i'll give you the secret squirrel address.  Plus you won't get charged nearly as bad as VG does.

[es_g0d]

Thanks, Steve.  That's really not the point: my point is that the "official" source stinks and doesn't comply with our wants, desires, and heritage.

[Rob Sherlin]

 The leather name tags (brown with a black boarder) are used for the flight suits, flight jackets, and A1 type leather jackets approved for use with the CSU. If no "aeronautical rating" (wings) are approved, then the member just has their name on the first line, SR MBR  (rank) below that on the left, and CAP on the right (no wings). The CAP command patch is worn on the opposite breast.
  If you want to get your olives bunched up and get an attitude, we can always look at the posts where people wear flight suits to meetings when they're not going to be flying.

[SJFedor]

The leather name tags (brown with a black boarder) are used for the flight suits, flight jackets, and A1 type leather jackets approved for use with the CSU. If no "aeronautical rating" (wings) are approved, then the member just has their name on the first line, SR MBR  (rank) below that on the left, and CAP on the right (no wings). The CAP command patch is worn on the opposite breast.
  If you want to get your olives bunched up and get an attitude, we can always look at the posts where people wear flight suits to meetings when they're not going to be flying.

No no no no no. The brown/black ones are used ONLY for the black leather CSU jacket. The smaller, solid black ones, as seen the OP's link, are the ones that should be on flight suits and flight jackets. And trust me when I say that Scott is very knowledgeable about flight suit wear as a professional.

And Scott, I sure do feel ya. You can find probably a hundred threads on here where we all have outlined VG's shortcomings and general uselessness. When NHQ ran the bookstore, then CAPMart, I heard some people had issues with them, but I never did, and they were a lot more responsive, cheaper, and more helpful then these guys are.

[Gunner C]

The leather name tags (brown with a black boarder) are used for the flight suits, flight jackets, and A1 type leather jackets approved for use with the CSU. If no "aeronautical rating" (wings) are approved, then the member just has their name on the first line, SR MBR  (rank) below that on the left, and CAP on the right (no wings). The CAP command patch is worn on the opposite breast.
  If you want to get your olives bunched up and get an attitude, we can always look at the posts where people wear flight suits to meetings when they're not going to be flying.

Negative.  The brown w/black border is only used on the leather jacket.

I'm not surprised that VG would get the stacking of badges wrong.  Not only is it wrong, but it looks like crap.  They are supposed to be one on top of the other - I can't understand what is so hard to figure out about that.  VG, IMO, is run by either dunces or they just don't care what the military norm/tradition is.  Strange for a military uniform/accoutrements company . . .

[Rob Sherlin]

 Sorry, I have a leather flight jacket, and even when I don't wear the patches on it (hook and loop) in civilian clothes, I get a lot of "that's not allowed" comments when I know it's approved. I thought it was for every uniform that calls for the leather patch (my mistake). Hopefully, I'll earn a pair of wings to wear on it, if I can gather enough lint (with gold dust maybe) to afford it as a senior member.

[Eclipse]

I'm not surprised that VG would get the stacking of badges wrong.  Not only is it wrong, but it looks like crap.  They are supposed to be one on top of the other - I can't understand what is so hard to figure out about that. 

It probably not a "figure it out" issue, its likely they don't have the smaller insignia required for stacking, and their machines are probably already setup for making them like the rest of the services.

[SJFedor]

I'm not surprised that VG would get the stacking of badges wrong.  Not only is it wrong, but it looks like crap.  They are supposed to be one on top of the other - I can't understand what is so hard to figure out about that. 

It probably not a "figure it out" issue, its likely they don't have the smaller insignia required for stacking, and their machines are probably already setup for making them like the rest of the services.

The rest of the services do stacked, not side by side.

Honestly, I think it's a total lack of instruction/direction from NHQ, so they kinda had to make it up as they go along. They can't screw up RealMil stuff because they have very strict guidelines to maintain for their insignia.

[Eclipse]

The rest of the services do stacked, not side by side.

I've recently seen them side-by-side, but can't find the pics.  Usually honchos wearing a flight jacket.

Also, missile guys have their badge on the right of the lettering.

[Gunner C]

Sorry, I have a leather flight jacket, and even when I don't wear the patches on it (hook and loop) in civilian clothes, I get a lot of "that's not allowed" comments when I know it's approved. I thought it was for every uniform that calls for the leather patch (my mistake). Hopefully, I'll earn a pair of wings to wear on it, if I can gather enough lint (with gold dust maybe) to afford it as a senior member.

Heck, I wear mine all the time.  No patches.  So do RM folks.  I'd politely ask them to apply sand to the point of contact of their choice . . . Without patches, it's just another leather jacket.

[Eclipse]

Sorry, I have a leather flight jacket, and even when I don't wear the patches on it (hook and loop) in civilian clothes, I get a lot of "that's not allowed" comments when I know it's approved. I thought it was for every uniform that calls for the leather patch (my mistake). Hopefully, I'll earn a pair of wings to wear on it, if I can gather enough lint (with gold dust maybe) to afford it as a senior member.

Heck, I wear mine all the time.  No patches.  So do RM folks.  I'd politely ask them to apply sand to the point of contact of their choice . . . Without patches, it's just another leather jacket.

Civilian clothes at a non-CAP activity, no one should care.

With corporate uniforms?  Different story.  Split hairs all you want, but we, as CAP members, have a specific prohibition regarding mixing military uniform items with corporate combination.

Even if it doesn't have the mil-spec tag in it, if its got Velcro on it someone intended it to look military. and if it walks like a duck, etc.

[Chicago_Pilot]

Strange...they patches don't even seem consistent:





The wings are centered vertically on the brown/black and justified to the top of the black-only patch.

[SJFedor]

Strange...they patches don't even seem consistent:





The wings are centered vertically on the brown/black and justified to the top of the black-only patch.

You're surprised?

[Hawk200]

I came across this on the Vanguard website today:
http://www.vanguardmil.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=13583

This bothers me.  Vanguard is defacto writing uniform regulations because they are the only "endorsed" or "official" supplier of CAP uniform items.

The other problem which people have mentioned is calling to make an order and on an item are told "that's not authorized". Same issue.

I have a twofold problem with their example nametag.  First, it doesn't conform to the norm by "stacking" badges left-to-right instead of above-and-below as we would expect.  What does 39-1 say about nametags?  Very little, unfortunately.  So Vanguard just splashes something on a piece of black leather and there you go, that's their official version.

It's done that way so that the manufacturer doesn't need to maintain more than one set of dies per insignia. Stamp them side by side at full size, no additional dies needed, cheaper.

Standard size badges look OK, it gets a little funky looking when it's a wing and a badge. Two sets of wings definitely look better one over the other (got a set for grins, and no I don't wear them).

Looks OK? Yeah, it's alright, but nothing to write home about. Easier for the manfacturer? Sure is, and cheaper too. Is it right? Certainly not.

As a reference, Page 34 of CAPR 39-1 says: 2. Leather Name Patch: Will include name, grade, and aeronautical rating. Patch will be centered on left breast above pocket.  Cloth name patch is not authorized.  If no aeronautical rating, a title such as “Mission Scanner” may be used.

Secondly, we've lost the specifics in 39-1 that stated exactly what was to be placed on the nametag.  Now its a free-for-all.  What specifically bothered me was that Vanguard specifically states that cadets will abbreviate their rank as "CDT."  Baloney.  39-1 used to specify "CADET" be written on the nametag.  That's in line with Other another prominent USAF cadet corps as well.

I couldn't find it either. I do remember the "CADET" designation from before, but you're right, it doesn't get specific like it did before. There's nothing about proper abbreviations for the flightsuit nametags like there was in previous editions of the manual.

At the end of the day, nametags like this look clownish.  Our USAF brethren simply wonder, agape, at what we're thinking--even if we're following our regulations!  We need to be specific with the requirements for the nametag again, and have it conform to heritage and norm from our parent organization.

Clownish is a matter of opinion. I can tell you for a fact that when the Air Force wore the leather nametag (the Air Force's designation) on the BDU, there were a large number of personnel that wore two badges in a side by side manner. If someone is enaging in the practice, no matter how much it's not legal, they aren't going to consider it clownish.

As for being specific, I completely agree. It's needs to be spelled out. Even the current AFI 36-2903 is not specific with the exact arrangement of the information on the tag. And reading further, it really only mentions a single badge.

If two tags side by side would be authorized, then our manual needs to say so. Does it need to say that it's allowed because that's what Vanguard can offer most conveniently? Not just no, but Hell No! They meet our needs, they produce insignia to our specifications, they provide a quality to our satisfaction, not their own.

If they aren't willing to do that, we need divest ourselves of them, and locate someone to do business with that will. Being the only game in town leads to a company despising it's customers. And treating customers in that manner is morally and ethically wrong, and possibly legally (someone probably knows how true that is, I wouldn't have the slightest clue where to look for it).

Personally, I still think their "exclusive" contract is a violation of fair competition laws somehow. Just wish I knew where to start.

[Chicago_Pilot]

You're surprised?

Yep, I just joined in February!

[Gunner C]

Sorry, I have a leather flight jacket, and even when I don't wear the patches on it (hook and loop) in civilian clothes, I get a lot of "that's not allowed" comments when I know it's approved. I thought it was for every uniform that calls for the leather patch (my mistake). Hopefully, I'll earn a pair of wings to wear on it, if I can gather enough lint (with gold dust maybe) to afford it as a senior member.

Heck, I wear mine all the time.  No patches.  So do RM folks.  I'd politely ask them to apply sand to the point of contact of their choice . . . Without patches, it's just another leather jacket.

Civilian clothes at a non-CAP activity, no one should care.

With corporate uniforms?  Different story.  Split hairs all you want, but we, as CAP members, have a specific prohibition regarding mixing military uniform items with corporate combination.

Even if it doesn't have the mil-spec tag in it, if its got Velcro on it someone intended it to look military. and if it walks like a duck, etc.

Isn't he talking about the black CAP leather flight jacket?  They're made to be worn with corporate uniforms.

[Eclipse]

Sorry, I have a leather flight jacket, and even when I don't wear the patches on it (hook and loop) in civilian clothes, I get a lot of "that's not allowed" comments when I know it's approved. I thought it was for every uniform that calls for the leather patch (my mistake). Hopefully, I'll earn a pair of wings to wear on it, if I can gather enough lint (with gold dust maybe) to afford it as a senior member.

Heck, I wear mine all the time.  No patches.  So do RM folks.  I'd politely ask them to apply sand to the point of contact of their choice . . . Without patches, it's just another leather jacket.

Civilian clothes at a non-CAP activity, no one should care.

With corporate uniforms?  Different story.  Split hairs all you want, but we, as CAP members, have a specific prohibition regarding mixing military uniform items with corporate combination.

Even if it doesn't have the mil-spec tag in it, if its got Velcro on it someone intended it to look military. and if it walks like a duck, etc.

Isn't he talking about the black CAP leather flight jacket?  They're made to be worn with corporate uniforms.

If someone's giving him grief about the black jacket, they can pound your sand...   

[Gunner C]

Strange...they patches don't even seem consistent:





The wings are centered vertically on the brown/black and justified to the top of the black-only patch.

If the side-by-side convention were consistent, the cross and wings would be reversed, the cross being the higher ranking badge.  VG does it again.

[Hawk200]

Isn't he talking about the black CAP leather flight jacket?  They're made to be worn with corporate uniforms.

I think what he's talking about is wearing the black leather jacket with civvies without a nametag on it, and being told it's not permitted.

Easy fix is to get a nametag with jsut a name on it, or maybe some cutesy saying to fill the Velcro.