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CAP is not the military

Started by flyguy06, April 18, 2006, 08:24:06 AM

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flyguy06

I hear this phrase a lot. No, CAP is not the military but CAP is military like. In the cadet Program, we use the military as a tool to teach leadership. In the senior member world, we emulate the military for our organization and structure and rules of order.

People tend to use this phrase as a crutch to not obied by something or to relax a standard that CAP has put into place. As an example, members will say that theydont have to do something because its not the military and they do what they want to do. Whereas this is true, what overall effect does that have on mission accomplishment and success?

I believe CAP needs to be more military like. More sturcutred  Ther eneeds to be a naional standard on things les[ecially concerning cadets and that standard needs to be upheld by local level leaders. What happens is loacl commanders say they want to do things their way instead of the CAP-military way.

This is just a thought that came to me from what I have seen in the past.

dwb

I use the phrase in response to people who think we're training killers.

We're training leaders, and we're using the structure of the military model to do so.  In that context, it's not about "breaking them down" or some such notion.

Some people think they need to do their best Gunny Hartman impression when training cadets.  Gunny Hartman was training killers, so his approach is rightfully different than the one a CAP officer should take.  We're not the military, we don't even play one on TV, so we should stop trying to emulate the perceived ideas and behaviors gleaned from the entertainment industry.

That's my angle on the phrase, anyway.  I agree that standards should be set high and rigorously enforced, as long as those standards serve the greater purpose of producing "dynamic Americans and aerospace leaders".

mikeylikey

If you go back 50 or 60 so years, CAP was the military.  There is a book out there that I had come across my desk one day called "This is your Civil Air Patrol".  It was published in 1953, and was filled with narrative explanations of what the CAP does for the nation.  It stressed more than any other fact that the Active Duty Air Force ran the daily operations of the CAP.  It was the true Auxiliary of the Air Force, nothing what it is like today.  It made points that most operational missions were commanded by active duty AF Officers at different levels in the organization, and that absolute control was given the military.  It highlighted the course of events that occurred as a member joined the CAP, including an amended enlistment contract for senior members.
 
Moreover, if you go back to the CAP Basic Membership Manual printed in 1943, it aligned the CAP as an Auxiliary of the Army, under complete and absolute Army control.  Members enlisted in the CAP for the duration of the war, and were required to report for duty when the Army called.  CAP officers were appointed by the secretary of the Army, with CAP recommendation.  Some of you will most likely remember that the CAP was an instrument of the Office of Civil Defense, it was but, it was transfered to the Army until the War ended, and was never transfered back, not even when the war ended.   
 
It is really intersting to see the huge differences between CAP up to 1970 and CAP of today.  It seems there was a huge culture shift in both the CAP and the Military which led to the present organization.  History is a great thing, and the history that most CAP members read is the small "we spotted submarines" and nothing else.  The best source of CAP history is the member who was around during the 40's or 50's, and all too often are usually just thought of as the "old-timer" who does thing the "old" way.
What's up monkeys?

Hammer

Quote from: flyguy06 on April 18, 2006, 08:24:06 AM
~~~~~I believe CAP needs to be more military like. More sturcutred~~~~~

I second that.  I know that my Squadron is probably the least "military" of any CAP Squadron.  I went to Encampment in WVWG, and they were completely different from MDWG.

Becks

Wow I would love to get my hands on that book, sounds pretty nifty.

BBATW

hlhanna

Lets go back to the way it was then. This corporate mentality is killing CAP.

fyrfitrmedic

Quote from: hlhanna on April 18, 2006, 05:01:04 PM
Lets go back to the way it was then. This corporate mentality is killing CAP.

A slow, ugly death indeed.

Anyone else remember something about the results of 'exit interviews' conducted in a survey of lapsed members several years ago?
MAJ Tony Rowley CAP
Lansdowne PA USA
"The passion of rescue reveals the highest dynamic of the human soul." -- Kurt Hahn

Becks

Quote from: fyrfitrmedic on April 18, 2006, 06:47:56 PM
Quote from: hlhanna on April 18, 2006, 05:01:04 PM
Lets go back to the way it was then. This corporate mentality is killing CAP.

A slow, ugly death indeed.

Anyone else remember something about the results of 'exit interviews' conducted in a survey of lapsed members several years ago?

No, mind sharing?

BBATW

Matt

the Exit interviews basically, summed up said that people didn't have meaningful enough jobs, and/or they didn't care for the political side of the house, which CAP is quickly becomming.

FFM, please let me know if I'm warm or cold on that response....
<a href=mailto:mkopp@ncr.cap.gov> Matthew Kopp</a>, Maj, CAP
Director of Information Technology
<a href=https://www.ncrcap.us.org> North Central Region</a>

Lamh Dearg

"....Some people think they need to do their best Gunny Hartman impression when training cadets.  Gunny Hartman was training killers, so his approach is rightfully different than the one a CAP officer should take.  We're not the military, we don't even play one on TV, so we should stop trying to emulate the perceived ideas and behaviors gleaned from the entertainment industry...."

Agreed that we shouldn't try and emulate Gunny Hartman, and anyway FMJ is not representative of today's Boot Camps either; remember that is dramatizing events of upwards of forty years ago.

I've been aboard Great Lakes RTC (Navy Boot Camp) many times, and one thing you don't hear much of is screaming and shouting by the RDCs - their philosophy is that there are better ways to get the point across, whatever point that may be.

Strict & disciplined - yes; Gunny Hartman - by no means!

Earhart1971

No CAP is not the (the Military) or the Air Force, and we don't want to be the Air Force or the Military.

Our Corporate Structure, helps CAP stay CAP not turn into something like JROTC.

Now, that said, having good uniform discipline and customs of the military are good, and I am all for sharp uniforms and seniors that meet height to weight standards.

CAP has its own traditions, and I'd rather be in control of our own Uniform and not the Air Force trying to make us less of an embarrassment to them, by the changing the color of rank insignia and such.

Believe me I have been there at Maxwell AFB for different functions and heard the AF Personnel attending College, sitting in the Chow Halls talking down CAP Seniors in Uniform.

I did point out to one Capt, that the Senior he was referring to at the time was wearing a certain ribbon on his uniform (Purple Heart) and I said to him, you probably wont be wearing a uniform at his age or volunteering, you will be on the golf course somewhere. I was courteous, but the Senior he was referring was a Normandy Vet.

Air Force seems to at times exert control and, take money away, change the uniform, do IG investigations.

We have a National Commander now that believes in CAP as its own entity, not simply an Auxillary of the Air Force.









mikeylikey

Quote from: Earhart1971 on April 18, 2006, 11:18:46 PM
No CAP is not the (the Military) or the Air Force, and we don't want to be the Air Force or the Military...
We have a National Commander now that believes in CAP as its own entity, not simply an Auxiliary of the Air Force.

If thats the case, he sure went after the money that was cut from the budget.  He went before the AF and the Fed Gov't and repeatedly stressed how vital we were to both the AF as an auxiliary and the Federal Government.  You referenced tradition, the CAP tradition is its very close ties with the military.  Once again I stress the importance of investigating history.  The Air Force believes in the CAP, so much so that they allow reservists the opportunity to accrue retirement points when acting as liaison between the military and CAP.  Our organization is proving itself to be a vital government asset in the post- 9/11 world, and I see the AF take much credit for it's "auxiliary".
What's up monkeys?

Earhart1971

Quote from: mikeylikey on April 18, 2006, 11:49:20 PM
Quote from: Earhart1971 on April 18, 2006, 11:18:46 PM
No CAP is not the (the Military) or the Air Force, and we don't want to be the Air Force or the Military...
We have a National Commander now that believes in CAP as its own entity, not simply an Auxiliary of the Air Force.

If thats the case, he sure went after the money that was cut from the budget.  He went before the AF and the Fed Gov't and repeatedly stressed how vital we were to both the AF as an auxiliary and the Federal Government.  You referenced tradition, the CAP tradition is its very close ties with the military.  Once again I stress the importance of investigating history.  The Air Force believes in the CAP, so much so that they allow reservists the opportunity to accrue retirement points when acting as liaison between the military and CAP.  Our organization is proving itself to be a vital government asset in the post- 9/11 world, and I see the AF take much credit for it's "auxiliary".

Not in disagreement at all, (about CAP and how we are vital), this is my point, if we are vital, why did the Air Force CUT OUR BUDGET?

The Air Force is less than helpful, and all for mission expansion at the same time, not adding any money into the scenario, but taking it away.

The National Commander went after the money (this is correct), and got it back.

He did not get the money back from the Air Force, the Air Force wanted to keep the money.

He went over the heads of the Air Force and the Pentagonies, and went straight to Congress.


If you want my opinion, CAP is underfunded by about 200 million Dollars a year.

shorning

Quote from: Earhart1971 on April 19, 2006, 12:12:42 AM
...why did the Air Force CUT OUR BUDGET?

That's simple.  The Air Force had a budget cut across the board.  Every AF program took some kind of a hit.  The AF only gets so much money and has to rack-n-stack it's priorities.  Last I checked we still had troops in Afghanistan and Iraq (plus "other" locations).  Not to mention all the other "operational" aspect the AF has to fund.  So CAP doesn't exactly rank as high on the list as AF squadrons.

Still think the AF should give CAP more funding?  Talk to your Congressman.  But I'm curious, where should they take money from in order to give it to CAP?

Earhart1971

#14
Quote from: shorning on April 19, 2006, 12:30:27 AM
Quote from: Earhart1971 on April 19, 2006, 12:12:42 AM
...why did the Air Force CUT OUR BUDGET?

That's simple.  The Air Force had a budget cut across the board.  Every AF program took some kind of a hit.  The AF only gets so much money and has to rack-n-stack it's priorities.  Last I checked we still had troops in Afghanistan and Iraq (plus "other" locations).  Not to mention all the other "operational" aspect the AF has to fund.  So CAP doesn't exactly rank as high on the list as AF squadrons.

Still think the AF should give CAP more funding?  Talk to your Congressman.  But I'm curious, where should they take money from in order to give it to CAP?

First of all, the Air Force just found out, via MajGen. Pineda, that CAP's money, is CAP's money, it does not belong to the Air Force.

It belongs to CAP and it is written into the appropriations by Congress, therefore, they (the Air Force) have no power to give or take away our money, we are funded by Congress, not the Air Force.

We are not a LINE ITEM in the Air Force Budget that the Air Force can just pencil out.

Besides that, do a little homework yourself, figure in all the hours we fly per year in support of Air Force Missions, 100,000 to 120,000 per year.

Then take those hours and multiply them by the hourly coast of a H-60, or a C-130, or any other non CAP, Air Force Aircraft.  I would say the cheapest aircraft is $500 an hour, to as high as $4000 per hour, with out considering crew pay and benefits.

I think you will find that we SAVE the Air Force more money than we cost, on a very wide multiple.  I think we save the Air Force about 300 Million to 500 million per year.

So, if Congress were smart they would fund us better and allow us to save even more money for the Air Force.

Lets get a little more strong on exactly what we do and the economic benefits to our Country.

CAP saves more than lives, we save teenagers, we save money, we produce leaders, and there is no reason to not fund CAP more, it makes sense on every level.

LETS GET STRONG with the PROGRAM!




shorning

Quote from: Earhart1971 on April 19, 2006, 01:33:14 AM


That's really nice post, but not really a workable solution.  There isn't an unlimited supply of money out there.  I ask again:  who's going to pay?  Who are your going to take money from in order to fund CAP?

fyrfitrmedic

Quote from: Matt on April 18, 2006, 09:17:57 PM
the Exit interviews basically, summed up said that people didn't have meaningful enough jobs, and/or they didn't care for the political side of the house, which CAP is quickly becomming.

FFM, please let me know if I'm warm or cold on that response....

Spot-on, actually. If I remember correctly, a number of former cadets who were surveyed felt that they weren't challenged enough.
MAJ Tony Rowley CAP
Lansdowne PA USA
"The passion of rescue reveals the highest dynamic of the human soul." -- Kurt Hahn

Earhart1971

Quote from: shorning on April 19, 2006, 01:48:48 AM
Quote from: Earhart1971 on April 19, 2006, 01:33:14 AM


That's really nice post, but not really a workable solution.  There isn't an unlimited supply of money out there.  I ask again:  who's going to pay?  Who are your going to take money from in order to fund CAP?

I really did not offer a solution on this thread, all I did was point out that we save the US Tax Payers Multi Millions every year, and it might be nice if they added more money to CAP Operating Funds, because of the great job we do, and my theory is a better funded CAP, saves the US Taxpayer more money.

I laid out some ideas, you are a L/Col, why don't you come up with some ideas of your own.

You guys wearing the Silver Oaks, need to do a little thinking outside the box.  Read the posting on the Sheriff Dept thread and you will get some of the ideas I have.


Speaking of money, how many rich folk in Hawaii have you asked about funding your local Squadrons?




Westernslope

#18
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shorning

Quote from: Earhart1971 on April 19, 2006, 03:54:06 AM
I laid out some ideas, you are a L/Col, why don't you come up with some ideas of your own.

You were the one complaining about the budget woes.  Identifying a problem without offering a solution doesn't do anyone any good.  So...where should the money come from?

Additionally, I don't believe I've talked about my ideas.  I'm not soliciting you for ideas.  I'm trying to get you to apply a little critical thinking to the situation and work the problem through.  So far we have one issue, but not all of them, nor do we have possible solutions.  However, you're still avoiding my question.

As an aside, it's "Lt Col".  I realize that the services did things different at one point, but we should keep ourselves up-to-date and make sure we're doing things the correct way.  Using the correct terminology and the like helps insure others understand what we're talking about.

Quote from: Earhart1971 on April 19, 2006, 03:54:06 AM
You guys wearing the Silver Oaks, need to do a little thinking outside the box. 

Actually, all members do.  Blaming it on or leaving it up to Lt Col's or higher is a non-starter.  Besides, how do you know what I think?  I haven't offered my views of our budget situation.  So instead of lecturing me on "thinking outside the box", perhaps you can answer my question:  where should the money come from?  In other words, who's going to pay?

Quote from: Earhart1971 on April 19, 2006, 03:54:06 AM
Read the posting on the Sheriff Dept thread and you will get some of the ideas I have.

I did and I've posted my comments on that idea.  That might be a solution for one squadron, but it certainly doesn't help us nationally.  But it is an idea.

Quote from: Earhart1971 on April 19, 2006, 03:54:06 AM
Speaking of money, how many rich folk in Hawaii have you asked about funding your local Squadrons?

Again, I don't think I've discussed my activities.  That's called "transference".  Instead of answering my questions, you're making it about what I'm doing.  You've brought up several items for discussion.  So I'm trying to discuss them with you.  Instead you're avoiding my questions.  You're simply offering up problems without solutions.  In this case, budget solutions for CAP...nationally.  Doesn't seem like it should be that hard.