I have started to notice.

[TEAM SURGE]

Recently I have been to a couple cadet activities. I have talk to a lot of SNCO's who have never even heard of the test required to obtain your UDF and Ground Team qualifications.

116
117

I don't understand this. My squadron we have  Airman we are trying to get testing.  Why are other squadrons not doing this type of stuff? Isn't it part of the 3 missions of CAP?

[Eclipse]

Unfortunately (in the opinion of many) ES is not a core or required component of the cadet program per se, and unit cc's in a lot of areas are allowed to exclude it from their schedules.

Couple that with a state that has a low ES ops tempo in general, and its not unusual to find cadets, and even seniors, who know nothing about ES, and even treat it with disdain.   

[TEAM SURGE]

That is unfortunate. ES is my favorite part within CAP. I would like to do more of it in my squadron.

[dwb]

I'll come right out and say it: I'm not in CAP to do ES stuff.  I have done it, and now I choose not to do it anymore.

When I was a squadron commander, unless my cadets were very clear about wanting to do ES stuff, I didn't build it into the schedule.  We have enough to do with our two hours a week.

That said, I appreciate all three missions of CAP, even if I don't participate in all of them.  There do seem to be CP people and Ops people that have an "us vs. them" mentality, and I try to fight that when I see it.

[lordmonar]

I don't understand this. My squadron we have  Airman we are trying to get testing.  Why are other squadrons not doing this type of stuff? Isn't it part of the 3 missions of CAP?

Not if you are just a cadet squadron it is not.

[Eclipse]

I don't understand this. My squadron we have  Airman we are trying to get testing.  Why are other squadrons not doing this type of stuff? Isn't it part of the 3 missions of CAP?

Not if you are just a cadet squadron it is not.

That's not entirely correct - CAP's missions are CAP missions, regardless of the charter, however in that a cadet's squadron's primary mission is the needs of what 52-16 defines as the "program", a Cadet Squadron is free to self-select from participating in ES (assuming higher HQ agrees with this).

Many people feel this is a weakness or omission in the program, many people could care less.

[JayT]

Unfortunately (in the opinion of many) ES is not a core or required component of the cadet program per se, and unit cc's in a lot of areas are allowed to exclude it from their schedules.

Couple that with a state that has a low ES ops tempo in general, and its not unusual to find cadets, and even seniors, who know nothing about ES, and even treat it with disdain.   

I don't know if disdain is the word, but I would say the some don't see value of it. In, an all honestly, most Wing's don't have the operational tempo to maintain a huge ES presence.

I don't think that we should teach 'ES,' we should teach the skills. Land navigating, survival, etc etc. We all know that pencil whipping goes on at the expensive of actual training.

[Pylon]

I don't know if disdain is the word, but I would say the some don't see value of it. In, an all honestly, most Wing's don't have the operational tempo to maintain a huge ES presence.

It's not necessarily disdain, but if you live in a state (take New York for example) that does not consider CAP as any sort of primary SAR or Emergency Response resource, then you only need just enough ES participation to cover the occassional AFRCC call and any local things.  Why bother train cadets in every unit in GT and mission base roles if all they'll ever do is SAREXes?  If people train and train and train and never once use their skills towards what they've told they're training for, most will likely grow disinterested and move along.

[Eclipse]

I don't know if disdain is the word, but I would say the some don't see value of it. In, an all honestly, most Wing's don't have the operational tempo to maintain a huge ES presence.

It's not necessarily disdain, but if you live in a state (take New York for example) that does not consider CAP as any sort of primary SAR or Emergency Response resource, then you only need just enough ES participation to cover the occasional AFRCC call and any local things.  Why bother train cadets in every unit in GT and mission base roles if all they'll ever do is SAREXes?  If people train and train and train and never once use their skills towards what they've told they're training for, most will likely grow disinterested and move along.

I agree from a human nature standpoint, but from an experiential standpoint, especially for cadets, similar organizations like the ACA, NSCC, even the BSA, would seem to have a different experience.

These organizations do all sorts of field training and exercises and have no operational role whatsoever, so there's no expectation of using the training unless you enlist, etc., yet they have very active corps.

And unfortunately, what I've seen is actual disdain or worse, from units not involved in ES - my gut is that the reasons are steeped in history and politics, based at least somewhat on seeing members get all sorts of resources and money for ES and little for other parts of the program, but in some case that I know of personally, I think its as much a matter of the local commander being barely able to keep up with the CP, let alone the attention to all the details ES participation requires.  When they are called out on this they get defensive, which breeds the contempt.

[MIKE]

I think ES is a crutch for CAP, as it relates to cadets and the Cadet Program... it's a big sales pitch that breads "Rescue Ranger" types, but at the same time for the vast majority will end up being a relative waste of time.

[Eclipse]

I think ES is a crutch for CAP, as it relates to cadets and the Cadet Program... it's a big sales pitch that breads "Rescue Ranger" types, but at the same time for the vast majority will end up being a relative waste of time.

Sadly, I have to agree - far too many units sell ES' sizzle at the air show, only to have their members show up at a meeting to find the Hummer was borrowed from a dealership, and the unit hasn't been involved in a mission in years.

Then they wonder why people don't stick...

[Pylon]

I don't know if disdain is the word, but I would say the some don't see value of it. In, an all honestly, most Wing's don't have the operational tempo to maintain a huge ES presence.

It's not necessarily disdain, but if you live in a state (take New York for example) that does not consider CAP as any sort of primary SAR or Emergency Response resource, then you only need just enough ES participation to cover the occasional AFRCC call and any local things.  Why bother train cadets in every unit in GT and mission base roles if all they'll ever do is SAREXes?  If people train and train and train and never once use their skills towards what they've told they're training for, most will likely grow disinterested and move along.

I agree from a human nature standpoint, but from an experiential standpoint, especially for cadets, similar organizations like the ACA, NSCC, even the BSA, would seem to have a different experience.

These organizations do all sorts of field training and exercises and have no operational role whatsoever, so there's no expectation of using the training unless you enlist, etc., yet they have very active corps.

And unfortunately, what I've seen is actual disdain or worse, from units not involved in ES - my gut is that the reasons are steeped in history and politics, based at least somewhat on seeing members get all sorts of resources and money for ES and little for other parts of the program, but in some case that I know of personally, I think its as much a matter of the local commander being barely able to keep up with the CP, let alone the attention to all the details ES participation requires.  When they are called out on this they get defensive, which breeds the contempt.

The skills and training and dedication cadets can learn from training for ES can be inherently good, with or without the mission to actively apply those skills.  However, if one doesn't have an active OPSTEMPO in the area and one wants to still train in ES, I think it can be done but one has to be extremely careful on how it's presented to the cadets and members.  One shouldn't be recruiting senior members and enticing cadets on the basis of conducting "search and rescue" and for the benefit and safety of the community if all they'll be doing is training.  Overselling is how it's most likely to lead to unsatisfied members, and unfortunately I think we have a lot of that in CAP.

[MIKE]

^ If that is the case... then I'd rather do some other activity that has similar benefits, but isn't playing at SAR... Other cadet programs do FTXs and the like... that aren't SAREXs.

[JayT]

I think ES is a crutch for CAP, as it relates to cadets and the Cadet Program... it's a big sales pitch that breads "Rescue Ranger" types, but at the same time for the vast majority will end up being a relative waste of time.

Amen.

It's easy to say 'we're better then other cadet corps because we're operational' but when those operations rarely happen, you get all sizzle but no steak.

To me, the best thing to do would be to take lessons from other corps and get away from the 'You're a Ground Team Member' and go to a 'you have fieldcraft skills.'

Also, widening our operational scope wouldn't hurt us. More associations with the ARC and their missions, CERT, and their deal. More operations with local communites. Also, pushing cadet's into Aircrew roles wouldn't hurt either.

I don't see CAP's best operational role as a supporting agency to the Air Force or in 'national' diseasters which are few and thankfully far between, but being the 'hometown Air Force' for county and town level's could provide us more missions and more local resources.

I remember a few months ago when the Volunteer ran a story about using CAP planes to help a university track flights of birds, and how many members quickly scoffed at the idea of using USAFAux resources to perform such a 'mundane' activity rather then do flashy high profile secret squirrel stuff.

[TEAM SURGE]

I think ES is a crutch for CAP, as it relates to cadets and the Cadet Program... it's a big sales pitch that breads "Rescue Ranger" types, but at the same time for the vast majority will end up being a relative waste of time.

Sadly, I have to agree - far too many units sell ES' sizzle at the air show, only to have their members show up at a meeting to find the Hummer was borrowed from a dealership, and the unit hasn't been involved in a mission in years.

Then they wonder why people don't stick...

WOOOH! Sounds like my story. Only I was told I could shoot M16's and ride quads all the time! I would really like to see our squadron get more involoved. We live in the middle of the woods, and right next to the beach. There is something bound to happen that we can help with 

[Stonewall]

There do seem to be CP people and Ops people that have an "us vs. them" mentality, and I try to fight that when I see it.

I have seen this time and time again.  I have always said that when it comes to CAP I divide my interests, focus and love for CAP as 51% Cadet Programs and 49% Emergency Services.  I enjoy AE, but I leave it up to the professionals.  But like the "us vs. them" mentality that you speak of, I have seen it just as bad when comparing AE to everything else in CAP.  I have met some over zealous AE folks who truly believe that CAP is 100% AE and nothing else.

^ If that is the case... then I'd rather do some other activity that has similar benefits, but isn't playing at SAR... Other cadet programs do FTXs and the like... that aren't SAREXs.

As a cadet, I only participated in about 5 real missions.  Honestly, I wouldn't have cared if I experienced any.  Same as a senior, but I've been involved with lots and lots of REDCAP missions.  That said, the my favorite part of the ES mission in CAP is the training.  I agree, if CAP conducted FTXs like ACA or even the Boy Scouts, I'd enjoy simply training, for no potential "real world" callout. 

The difference, I feel, is that CAP trains cadets (and seniors) for something relevant to emergency services rather than simply going on an FTX to go on an FTX.  Like I have always said, I consider to field exercises to be an awesome opportunity for leadership laboratory training for cadet NCOs and officers.  Why ES?  Because that's what CAP offers.  It wouldn't bother me one bit if the ES factor was pulled out of the cadet program, but I do believe it motivates a lot of cadets to join and stay; just for the simple fact of their being potential, no matter how small, to be called out on a "real mission".

[RiverAux]

I don't have a lot of sympathy for the units complaining about lack of missions as I think in many cases they bring it upon themselves by not doing the very hard work of developing the relationships with local and state agencies needed to generate missions.  If you're just waiting around for missing aircraft and ELT calls from AFRCC, there are going to be large parts of the country where you don't do much at all. 

There are some exceptions to that general statement such as units in large urban areas that are going to be dependent on the relationship work done by the CAP units in the more rural parts of the state where many of the searches are going to take place.  However, urban searches for missing persons are there, just require some skills CAP doesn't teach. 

But as far as cadet units go, we all know that they are going to be very dependent on the small number of active seniors supporting them and what those seniors are interested in doing.  If you've got a commander who has been there 10 years and is burned out on ELTs, they probably are going to let ES slide.  If you've got a commander who has never spent a day in the woods, its going to be hard to get a real GT program going.  As with most things CAP, it is all local and time dependent. 

[Eclipse]

I still don't view AE as a mission separated from ES & CP, if you're really hitting ES & CP, what's left of any substance in AE that isn't being covered, at least tangentially?

[es_g0d]

I think ES is a crutch for CAP, as it relates to cadets and the Cadet Program... it's a big sales pitch that breads "Rescue Ranger" types, but at the same time for the vast majority will end up being a relative waste of time.

This is the unfortunate conclusion when we "oversell" our program.  Its not a good idea to talk big and deliver small, but all too often this IS what we do in CAP.  Its not just this single issue: look for it and stomp it wherever it grows, folks!  In my eyes, that's just a part of honesty.  And honesty is just a friendlier word for integrity.

ES isn't -- and shouldn't be -- a mandatory part of the cadet program.  But it IS a huge enhancer.  

I have said this often, but not often enough: I learned more about leadership by being on a ground team for a couple of formative years than I did in 4 full years at the Air Force Academy.  ES is an awesome leadership laboratory with real-world consequences.  Its a lot to put on a 16 year old's shoulders, but if someone can hack that, what else are they capable of?

I think its ES that makes us distinctive from other youth programs.  Its not our only selling point, but it is definitely a positive.  Don't oversell it, but use it!  

[heliodoc]

25 years ago I was a cadet (Mitchell and Earhart) and we did as best we could to sell all the programs equally.  It DID NOT always work to be the first at drill comp nor the first at an AE bowl...

I was with a squadron that pushed ES pretty heavily because the only things we had were radios, and M37 and a M43 Ambulance (both Dodge products) and the cadets were more than enthused to get in the woods and probably 2 weekends a month with an L per, 2 coils of 120 and 150 foot goldline, and a Stokes stretcher.  We had kids who had never seen any of this equipment and they were from innner city and urban environments.  Many cadets went on to PJOC and USAFA Survival School in the era of 1977 thru 1981.  I attended USAFA Survival in 1977 and PJOC in 1979

There was really no worry about how much AE and CP time was devoted or how much bling one could get, we just went about our biz as a ground team.  We knew BACK THEN we wouldn't always get the call for anything but we preped like we were

Don't know where the waste of time originated.... we did the CP and AE when required and then it was ready to prep to many a State park..... to DO ES

Those former cadets are former Pathfinders, SF operators (3 still are), aircraft MX officers with RM Col on his shoulders........ These were kids that did not care about the so called structure of a weekly meeting... they RAN the composite squadron and most us SM's corralled and guided and watched cadet magic, fun , frivolity, and true seriousness about a mission that may never come and they were realistic enough to know we were not always going to be first out of the gate.

There are alot of CAPers that do not want to hang with the cadets.  Don't have to, give em a gig to do, teach a class see who comes up and moves front and center...Seniors included

CAP now after 25 years seems to be watered down with too much core values stuff and too much time worrying about the liability.  Its all about the change in times.  Sqdn CC's are ham strung with too many reports and not enough field action and that has proved that mental toughness does not come from bowing to all the legal eagles and trying to tow the "CAP corporate line"

This is today's CAP, I am happy with it for the while, I can still contribute and make my contacts with the ARNG to get training facilities available to my squadron and some "meaninful" training with the Aviation unit I was once with, get a rappellmaster lined up in the future to rfappell off towers.

ES is a huge enhancer and it doesn't always occur at a two hour block at a CAP meeting...it also entails on how things come together OUTSIDE of the squadron that gets molded to a meeting and IF ES outshines CP and AE and vice versa what in God's name is there to worry about??

WE never over sold ......we showed what we had and we did not bring a HUMMER like vehicle nor a M151 Jeep from the Reserve or Guard.... wes old the program where is ... as is  no one was let down when a squadron tells, God forbid, the truth!!!

[TEAM SURGE]

25 years ago I was a cadet (Mitchell and Earhart) and we did as best we could to sell all the programs equally.  It DID NOT always work to be the first at drill comp nor the first at an AE bowl...

I was with a squadron that pushed ES pretty heavily because the only things we had were radios, and M37 and a M43 Ambulance (both Dodge products) and the cadets were more than enthused to get in the woods and probably 2 weekends a month with an L per, 2 coils of 120 and 150 foot goldline, and a Stokes stretcher.  We had kids who had never seen any of this equipment and they were from innner city and urban environments.  Many cadets went on to PJOC and USAFA Survival School in the era of 1977 thru 1981.  I attended USAFA Survival in 1977 and PJOC in 1979

There was really no worry about how much AE and CP time was devoted or how much bling one could get, we just went about our biz as a ground team.  We knew BACK THEN we wouldn't always get the call for anything but we preped like we were

Don't know where the waste of time originated.... we did the CP and AE when required and then it was ready to prep to many a State park..... to DO ES

Those former cadets are former Pathfinders, SF operators (3 still are), aircraft MX officers with RM Col on his shoulders........ These were kids that did not care about the so called structure of a weekly meeting... they RAN the composite squadron and most us SM's corralled and guided and watched cadet magic, fun , frivolity, and true seriousness about a mission that may never come and they were realistic enough to know we were not always going to be first out of the gate.

There are alot of CAPers that do not want to hang with the cadets.  Don't have to, give em a gig to do, teach a class see who comes up and moves front and center...Seniors included

CAP now after 25 years seems to be watered down with too much core values stuff and too much time worrying about the liability.  Its all about the change in times.  Sqdn CC's are ham strung with too many reports and not enough field action and that has proved that mental toughness does not come from bowing to all the legal eagles and trying to tow the "CAP corporate line"

This is today's CAP, I am happy with it for the while, I can still contribute and make my contacts with the ARNG to get training facilities available to my squadron and some "meaninful" training with the Aviation unit I was once with, get a rappellmaster lined up in the future to rfappell off towers.

ES is a huge enhancer and it doesn't always occur at a two hour block at a CAP meeting...it also entails on how things come together OUTSIDE of the squadron that gets molded to a meeting and IF ES outshines CP and AE and vice versa what in God's name is there to worry about??

WE never over sold ......we showed what we had and we did not bring a HUMMER like vehicle nor a M151 Jeep from the Reserve or Guard.... wes old the program where is ... as is  no one was let down when a squadron tells, God forbid, the truth!!!

This would be my type of squadron!

Our ES block at our meetings right now are etting tests taken and 72 hour packs prepared.

[Eclipse]

25 years ago I was a cadet (Mitchell and Earhart) and we did as best we could to sell all the programs equally.  It DID NOT always work to be the first at drill comp nor the first at an AE bowl...

Drill competitions - meh.

Despite tradition and the fact that the are at least peripherally included in the actual CP, there are those out here who believe the resources and time required to field an NCC-level team are just as detrimental to the program as all that "extra" ES - unless of course your career path includes playing volleyball and marching in a square.

The AE Bowls, on the other hand, can provide a similar competitive, interstate atmosphere with nothing more than the Dimensions books and nowhere near the time or expense of NCC.

[JayT]

And a quarter of the fun, no team experences, no trips for competitions........

[Eclipse]

And a quarter of the fun, no team experiences, no trips for competitions........

You could get the same "team experience" from AE bowl, and that $10-15K not spent on uniforms and travel expenses could be used to send half the cadets in the wing to an encampment or similar activity, buy everyone a new, regular uniform, or any number of other more effective uses of the money.

That "experience" and trip only benefits a small percentage of the membership, and in the end brings back nothing of any real value to the wing - bragging rights live for what, two CS posts and an email?

While at the same time those same cadets, many of them the more senior in the wing, are essentially divorced from the "real" program for 1/3rd+ of the year while they practice.

(I think I hear Mike coming down the hall)   

[es_g0d]

A SAR competition can do all of that as well ...

In the end, CAP is best when its well-rounded.

[flyguy06]

Recently I have been to a couple cadet activities. I have talk to a lot of SNCO's who have never even heard of the test required to obtain your UDF and Ground Team qualifications.

116
117

I don't understand this. My squadron we have  Airman we are trying to get testing.  Why are other squadrons not doing this type of stuff? Isn't it part of the 3 missions of CAP?

You can go through the entire cadet program and never do any Ground team training. My unit doesnt focus on GT stuff. Our cadets like flying and so we mainly focue on O rides, and flight training type things. We also do cadet stuff also, like Color Guard and D & C. But if I asked them if they wanted to go out to the woods and spend the nihgt. The majority of them would say no

[TEAM SURGE]

You can go through the entire cadet program and never do any Ground team training. My unit doesnt focus on GT stuff. Our cadets like flying and so we mainly focue on O rides, and flight training type things. We also do cadet stuff also, like Color Guard and D & C. But if I asked them if they wanted to go out to the woods and spend the nihgt. The majority of them would say no

Thats dissapointing. Yes O-Rides are fun and such. The feeling of being qualified to search for something that may be very rewarding in the end? That is my type of fun

Color Guard is something I am trying to get the cadets into. I am bringing in a professional color guard from the Army to come to one of our meetings. Possibly get the cadets into that type of thing. I am interested.

[es_g0d]

Life would sure be boring if we liked the exact same things.  Pursue your individual interests, TEAM SURGE!  If your squadron isn't what you had hoped, consider transferring to another if they are close enough to you.  I'm glad you know what you like; too many people don't!

[a2capt]

If it's anything like whats going on in Southern California .. with remote launches, and all night ELT hunts, getting cadets involved in a base is non-existent and getting them to go out on ELT searches is not a realistic event logistically when you put in school, homework, etc and sprinkle CPPT on top.

It pretty much means that any cadet activity is at the heels of parents who are also members and take the cadets with them.

When was the last time a real search base was opened up?

With the lack of monitoring, we may go back toward this a bit more now, but .. I doubt this whole thing is a return to 30 years ago as much as some are saying it is.

30 years ago they didn't have the archived radar data, GPS tracking, and equipment we have now either.

[JoeTomasone]

In our Group, we are pushing ES hard both due to anemic post-1 Jan numbers and because we have heard time and time again that the members want it.    Cadets, especially, tend to view ES as something that makes their membership mean something more than a membership in another organization.  It also tends to help in both recruiting and retention.

My policy as Group ESO is that trainees (and especially Cadet trainees) are to be included as much as humanly possible and practical.    To that end, I plan to write up something akin to a permission slip that a Cadet's parents can fill out that will say if/when their Cadet is available for missions both during the school week, on weekends, and when school is out.    If the parent says the Cadet is available, the call will come.   

My biggest challenge is educational.   In informal polling of the members since I became ESO, I've found that the vast majority have no idea what ES comprises, what it does, or how to get qualified in it.   When I ask how many are or want to be qualified in ES, a get a few hands.   When I explain what ES does and some of the qualifications (GTM, UDF, MS, MO, MRO, usually), then ask the same question at the end, nearly every hand goes up.

I'm working on a Powerpoint that describes ES and how to get qualified, including navigating Ops Quals.

[Stonewall]

A well written post.

Fast forward your cadet experience to 87 - 91 and that was my experience.  Then, fast forward to 95 to 00, and you've got the exact same thing where I was a senior in DCWG.

Great post and excellent description of what I think a squadron should look like.

[TEAM SURGE]

In our Group, we are pushing ES hard both due to anemic post-1 Jan numbers and because we have heard time and time again that the members want it.    Cadets, especially, tend to view ES as something that makes their membership mean something more than a membership in another organization.  It also tends to help in both recruiting and retention.

My policy as Group ESO is that trainees (and especially Cadet trainees) are to be included as much as humanly possible and practical.    To that end, I plan to write up something akin to a permission slip that a Cadet's parents can fill out that will say if/when their Cadet is available for missions both during the school week, on weekends, and when school is out.    If the parent says the Cadet is available, the call will come.   

My biggest challenge is educational.   In informal polling of the members since I became ESO, I've found that the vast majority have no idea what ES comprises, what it does, or how to get qualified in it.   When I ask how many are or want to be qualified in ES, a get a few hands.   When I explain what ES does and some of the qualifications (GTM, UDF, MS, MO, MRO, usually), then ask the same question at the end, nearly every hand goes up.

I'm working on a Powerpoint that describes ES and how to get qualified, including navigating Ops Quals.

I will have my commander look into something like that. A type of slip for calling cadets. Great idea.