Cadets & Pregnancy

[hatentx]

I am glad someone else said what about the father.  While I understand the reasoning behind having the Regs cover automatic removal it is a bit simple.  While going on Active Duty and such are logical what about things that are unbecoming of a Cadet, or SM by that matter.  So the Cadet is 18 and becomes a stripper?  Would that be someone we would still want around in our organization?  Or a 28 year old SM joins the KKK.  While I am not passing judgment I am just bringing up the fact that we are willing, or were, to removes someone for being pregnant or not paying their dues on time or failing to do well academically?  So if I was a c/Lt Col and looking at making me c/ Col and I am 19 and in college working 2 jobs while in school and doing CAP and find myself unable to keep up with school and work am I to lose my Cadet status because I had to drop out of College for a semester?  I understand the thought was for Middle and High School students but as the Regs state I can make that an issue.  The legalism is ridiculous!!  I am Active Duty and see it but there is a bit of a difference between Active Duty and CAP

[Eclipse]

FYI - CAP was willing to remove a cadet for being pregnant, that is no longer the case, but people keep arguing like it is.
No matter that some of us might have agreed with the policy, pregnancy is no longer grounds for termination.

Stripping is not illegal, neither is membership in the KKK, unless the situations were brought into the realm of CAP, there's not much we could do about it. 

Bounce a check or don't pay your membership dues?  Of course you're out, we all are.

As to the other examples, pretty much yes.  Academics are certainly grounds for termination, with no filter on the grade.
The only logical reason why a cadet would allow his grades to slip, or take time off college for CAP would be that he his right at Spaatz and getting close to aging out, and even then its a judgment call as to whether its a good idea.  Otherwise, no reasonable commander would not not allow for a CAP hiatus in favor of school, which is how it should be.
Ultimately, a Cadet's grades and GPA are going to be more important than Spaatz, even if he if aiming at a military career, because in most case, by college age, CAP has done all it can for a cadet, military or otherwise.

And this brings us back to "DOE" in that cadets are not adults in the eyes of CAP, and until that changes, you can make all the impassioned, logical, idiosyncratic, 1%-example arguments about how unfair that is, and it won't change anything.

[Nathan]

The results of the pregnancy are not a natural part of the life of anyone under 21, and rare is the high school or even college-age person fully capable and ready for the massive weight of responsibility that comes with raising a child

They're completely natural. Just because you personally disagree with the choice doesn't counteract that it is both legal and "natural" for the teenager to have a kid. There are some countries where that's NORMAL. It's our society that doesn't help teenaged mothers along that sets the "natural" boundary. Teenaged mothers are chastised, seen as immoral, sometimes denied jobs, etc... our society simply deems that a fifteen year old is too young. But that's not always the case.

Regardless, it is NOT the job of CAP to decide that a fifteen year old doing something completely legal is skirting moral responsibility and is "not ready." I would imagine that if ANYONE was ready for the responsibilities of the real world, it would be the cadets who got enough out of CAP to want to stick with it after having a child.

Look at it this way. A cadet can take as many classes as he or she wants to, as long as they keep their grades up. If they are DEMONSTRABABLY failing at their outside responsibilities, we don't keep them in CAP. With pregnant cadets, we aren't even giving them the chance; we're just assuming that they can't deal with it, despite the fact that we don't know the circumstances behind the pregnancy, the support of the family, or even whether the cadet is planning on aborting or not. It is simply not CAP's business.

Until we find a way to hold the fathers equally responsible for the pregnancy, the regulation is sexist and inappropriate to CAP's goals. Our job is to help build the youth in our program, and tossing them out when they need that training the most is irresponsible of us.

[Nathan]

FYI - CAP was willing to remove a cadet for being pregnant, that is no longer the case, but people keep arguing like it is.
No matter that some of us might have agreed with the policy, pregnancy is no longer grounds for termination.

True, but it's still being discussed... hence the purpose of this thread...

So long as the regs are current, the option is still on the table. And regardless, it is still probably a good idea to cover whether or not pregnancy SHOULD be enforced grounds for termination. Those situations are difficult to handle, so how do you handle it when you find out one of your cadets is pregnant?

[Eclipse]

Regardless, it is NOT the job of CAP to decide that a fifteen year old doing something completely legal is skirting moral responsibility and is "not ready." I would imagine that if ANYONE was ready for the responsibilities of the real world, it would be the cadets who got enough out of CAP to want to stick with it after having a child.

Actually it is, and interesting that you picked 15.

Having a child at 15 is illegal in 46 states based on the age of consent, and even under 18 in several states.

[Eclipse]

So long as the regs are current, the option is still on the table. And regardless, it is still probably a good idea to cover whether or not pregnancy SHOULD be enforced grounds for termination. Those situations are difficult to handle, so how do you handle it when you find out one of your cadets is pregnant?

So, you just ignore the ICL that changed things for the sake of continuing the argument?

Since its no longer grounds for termination, its no longer any of CAP's business, outside the practical issues of any excused absences from CAP and/or requests for medical deferment of PT.

[davidsinn]

So long as the regs are current, the option is still on the table. And regardless, it is still probably a good idea to cover whether or not pregnancy SHOULD be enforced grounds for termination. Those situations are difficult to handle, so how do you handle it when you find out one of your cadets is pregnant?

So, you just ignore the ICL that changed things for the sake of continuing the argument?

What ICL? I think it was pointed out that although the NB voted on it they never acted on it. Thus the reg stands as is.

[O-Rex]

I think this is one of those things that borrows from the service academies, however they extend it to both genders, i.e., if you have a child, regardless of gender, you're out.  The implications to a female cadet are obvious, and for the male, the academies consider the financial obligations interfering with the pursuit of a Military Education.  Also, you cannot be married cadet in the SA's either. 

For argument's sake, moral/legal issues aside, consider the complications of pregnancy and cadets:

1. A PT waiver for pregnancy?

2. You are at an activity (even a local one) and your pregnant Cadet goes into premature labor, miscarries or has some other pregnancy-related complication.  I'd hate to be the one to call a parent "Can you please pick up your daughter?  She is unable to continue today's activities due to morning sickness." Let's not even get into liability issues.  Professional CAPTALK debaters can flame me ad-nauseum, but I don't need or want to deal with it, and the CAP powers-that-be who write the rules tend to agree.

It simply just doesn't fit into the 'rigorous activity' of cadet life. 

Let's keep this in perspective: when all is said and done the reality is that a pregnant teenaged girl has more immediate pressing issues than pursuing CAP (and personally, I would extend that to the teenaged boy who got her pregnant, if it IS a teenaged boy...) 

(Fellow parents, nod your heads in unison.)

Eclipse- I really love your line "Most 20 year old college students believe they are adults, and around 30 realize they weren't."   

I was a 20 year old Army NCO on my second overseas deployment who believed I was an adult, and around 40 realized I wasn't.   

[Flying Pig]

Ned.

If Im not mistaken, in CA isn't it illegal for minors to even have sex, even if they are both minors?  Id have to look that one up.

I think the whole idea behind terminating the membership of a cadet/parent was that the kid now has other issues to deal with besides getting on encampment staff or going to NCOS or participating in CAP.  I think many will say "well, its not your life"  No, but having 2 kids, I could easily tell a cadet that they will have other things to deal with.    Next thing you know we'll be providing child care at encampment.  However, It doesnt seem ike this is wide spread though...thankfully, but I imagine it does come up. 
Personally, Im surprised having children in itself doesn't DQ someone from cadet membership.  Just my opinion.  Now a rape victim who decided to keep the child, etc. the 1 in a million chance we'd hav to deal with that, OK....she could stay.
As a Sq Commander or DCC having 16 yr old cadets Chris and Stacy show up with their kids isn't the idea Im looking for.  Sorry, some of out here still think its wrong.

[Eclipse]

So long as the regs are current, the option is still on the table. And regardless, it is still probably a good idea to cover whether or not pregnancy SHOULD be enforced grounds for termination. Those situations are difficult to handle, so how do you handle it when you find out one of your cadets is pregnant?

So, you just ignore the ICL that changed things for the sake of continuing the argument?

What ICL? I think it was pointed out that although the NB voted on it they never acted on it. Thus the reg stands as is.

That's easy to say in an academic discussion like this, but we all know that the NB and NEC have powers that make their votes effective immediately, and precedence has shown that these votes are enforced regardless of the ancillary requirements to update docs, mandatory expiration of ICLs, etc.

I seriously doubt a termination for pregnancy would stand the MARB, though I will grant you that its amazing that this hasn't been addressed in nearly eight years.

[swamprat86]

I seriously doubt a termination for pregnancy would stand the MARB, though I will grant you that its amazing that this hasn't been addressed in nearly eight years.

This may show how few instances have occured or been reported in the eight years.  I will have you know that as a commander I submitted a 2b for this reason in 2004 because I was following the regs and it was processed without an issue.

[Eclipse]

I seriously doubt a termination for pregnancy would stand the MARB, though I will grant you that its amazing that this hasn't been addressed in nearly eight years.

This may show how few instances have occurred or been reported in the eight years.  I will have you know that as a commander I submitted a 2b for this reason in 2004 because I was following the regs and it was processed without an issue.

Was it challenged?  If not, who would notice?  The Unit CC is the signer for a flight or squadron, with the Group CC being the approving authority if there is a challenge, and the MARB is the next level of appeal.  If she accepted the termination,
then there was no one to read the form after it was processed.

[swamprat86]

No, it wasn't challenged.  She was pretty much a ghost by the time I found out about it anyway.  She wasn't returning my emails or messages.

[Rotorhead]

I seriously doubt a termination for pregnancy would stand the MARB, though I will grant you that its amazing that this hasn't been addressed in nearly eight years.

This may show how few instances have occured or been reported in the eight years.  I will have you know that as a commander I submitted a 2b for this reason in 2004 because I was following the regs and it was processed without an issue.

Does that means you hadn't seen the ICL?

[O-Rex]

Obviously a 2B has negative connotations, but in such cases, shouldn't there be the CAP equivalent of an "administrative discharge?"

What if the female cadet later wants to rejoin as a senior?

[Rotorhead]

Obviously a 2B has negative connotations, but in such cases, shouldn't there be the CAP equivalent of an "administrative discharge?"

What if the female cadet later wants to rejoin as a senior?

Although the ICL says we don't 2b for pregnancy, I am curious why we would in the first place.

[swamprat86]

Since there currently isn't an ICL listed for this, was there any evidence that there was then?

I know that when the board approves things they are implemented, but there still needs to be a general dissemination of information other than reading the minutes.  I wasn't a commander in 2001 so I didn't tend to pay a whole lot of attention to the board minutes.  When I did this 2b in 2004 how far back should I have gone in the board meetings on top of reading the regs before I made sure there wasn't any changes I missed?  Isn't that the purpose of have published regs?  Otherwise just get rid of them and make the minutes the official publication and resource.

[Cecil DP]

I think this is one of those things that borrows from the service academies, however they extend it to both genders, i.e., if you have a child, regardless of gender, you're out.

Actually the Academies give a maternity leave to a female cadet to have the baby and make arrangements for an adoption or termination of the pregnancy. The problem is not the preganancy, but the prohibition of cadets having a "dependent" prior to commissioning. The cadet is than readmitted in the following term.

[lordmonar]

Well you are opening up another can of worms with this one.

NHQ is very negligent in maintaining the regulations in a timely manner.

In 2004 National should have kicked the 2b back....but of course they may have been looking at the same regulation as the rest of us and not going to KB to find the answer.

On that issue you did due diligence so I would not worry too much.

Of all the thing in CAP that really peeve me this is the biggest one.  How can we expect our field commanders to do their jobs properly if higher head quarters are not doing theirs properly?

[Sleepwalker]

   I was 19 when my daughter was born.  Between college classes, raising a child (not to mention being married), and holding three part-time jobs I barely had time to sleep - much less participate in any extra-curricular activities.  It about killed me to just finish school!   

P.S.> If there are any young adults reading this post, I highly recommend that you go to college first, get a carreer and then get married (in that order).  Although everything turned out OK for us, it was nearly impossible to succeed.