This one smells to high heaven boys and girls

[desertengineer1]

According to that, then anything posted announcing new assignments or qualifications is also an invasion of privacy.......

I was more focused on the civil liability part.  If someone is removed for cause, and there is any perception of shenanigan, you risk civil liability with such a public release.  Best to take the benefit of the doubt and keep it within the corporate process.

We don't need additional, unneccessary risk - especially over safety.

[Eclipse]

According to that, then anything posted announcing new assignments or qualifications is also an invasion of privacy.......

No one sues when its good news...

[lordmonar]

According to that, then anything posted announcing new assignments or qualifications is also an invasion of privacy.......

No one sues when its good news...

You can't sue if what was said is true.

[BuckeyeDEJ]

No one sues when its good news...

"Hey, you did a great job! The best job anyone could ever do! I'm suing your ass!"

[RiverAux]

According to that, then anything posted announcing new assignments or qualifications is also an invasion of privacy.......

No one sues when its good news...

You can't sue if what was said is true.

Actually, you can still sue, you just probably won't win.

[davidsinn]

Just a clarification , Col. Bryan is an RN and Captain Curdes is a Firefighter/Paramedic - not EMTs 

[afgeo4]

Ya know...  While researching something entirely different, I came across this:

CAP REGULATION 110-1 (E)

a. CAP Internet Operation. Any activity operated or conducted through the Internet if: 1) such operations make use of a domain name registered or assigned to Civil Air Patrol, including, but not limited to, CAP.GOV or CAPNHQ.GOV or 2) use is made of the name "Civil Air Patrol" or its insignia, copyrights, emblems and badges, descriptive or designating marks and words used in carrying out its program which name and marks are specifically owned by Civil Air Patrol pursuant to 36 United States Code § 206.

And...

d. Prohibited CAP Internet Operations. The following acts shall be prohibited in CAP internet operations: 1) There shall be no use or distribution of any obscene, indecent, or offensive language or material that is defamatory, abusive, harassing, disrespectful or hateful. 2) There shall be no: a) use or distribution of junk mail, b) unauthorized advertising, c) communication that invades anyone's privacy, or encourages conduct that would constitute a criminal offense or gives rise to civil liability or that otherwise violates any local, state, national or international law or regulation, d) communication that contains false statements about Civil Air Patrol or Civil Air Patrol employees or members., e) publication or distribution of any information that violates any copyright, trade name or trademark.

Maybe it's just me, but this is pretty straight foreward with respect to the "Press Release" being a no no.

1. There's no reasonable expectation of privacy when it comes to names of members in the organization. No reasonable expectation of privacy in terms of personnel actions. The members' addresses, phone numbers and vital private information wasn't published. Their CAP weren't published. Just their names. That's not violation of privacy.

2. There is no criminal offense involved.

3. If the statements were true, then there is no libel involved. Libel only exists when false statements are made. The burden of proof is on the plaintiff to prove that the statement is false.

I don't see any way that this release was illegal or a tort. I just think it was in very poor taste, detrimental to our organization and more importantly than anything else, serves no positive purpose.

[afgeo4]

According to that, then anything posted announcing new assignments or qualifications is also an invasion of privacy.......

No one sues when its good news...

You can't sue if what was said is true.

Actually, you can still sue, you just probably won't win.

Actually you can't sue. If you know the statement to be true and still attempt to file a lawsuit it will be considered a frivolous lawsuit. You can be fined for filing such a lawsuit.

[Eclipse]

Actually you can't sue. If you know the statement to be true and still attempt to file a lawsuit it will be considered a frivolous lawsuit. You can be fined for filing such a lawsuit.

That doesn't stop you from filing suit, and forcing the other person to defend themselves.  You may ultimately be stuck with court costs, but the judge would have to believe you filed the suit knowing the facts to be true.

"Truth" is an incredibly subjective word in a court of law.

Criminally its "beyond a reasonable doubt", civilly its a  "preponderance of the evidence", but in neither case does it have to be 100% based on what the average person would define as "truth", only what a judge and or jury believe.

In this case, I don't think anyone would argue any civil or criminal laws were broken, only internal policies regarding privacy and common courtesy.

One thing some tend to forget - we're all in this for free - anytime someone has a bad experience in CAP it is a failure of leadership and protection of the member, whether ultimately that person should not have been a member, or failure to provide proper supervision and training results in "bad" things happening, in 99% of the cases, especially the typical he-said/she-said ego-based nonsense that gets many members to an IG, there was a point where a cool head or better leadership could have
changed things for the better.

Even in the case of HWSRN, no matter what his motives or SOP was, at the end of the day you have someone who gave years of his life to CAP being run out of town on a rail - not the best stewardship of our most precious resource.

[FlexCoder]

Let the legal "eagles" sort this mess out and find the truth.  Despite what happened, a lawsuit would not be appropriate for a poorly written press release.   

[DonaldHathaway]

This is all politics! There are a few suspicious things that can be noted; as well as some logical points that need to be said....First. Capt. Curdes is a  Firefighter and a Paramedic, and Col. Bryan is an RN. It seems rather stupid to believe that these two men, who have jobs that included safety, would be accused of putting their cadets at risk! I have known them since I joined 4 years ago and these two men took safety very seriously. More so then most officers I know....Second. This whole thing seems to play back from a long time ago. When Col. Bryan was the Indiana Wing Commander he removed Col. Reeves from a wing staff position. Ever since then the two have been on rocky ground. When Col. Bryan was removed from his command of the Indiana wing, on the basis that he did his job to well and was making the higher up's look bad because they weren't getting things up and running like he was, then Col. Reeves to over the command....To me this seems like more politics and more favoritism being played out, and I, for one, am sick and tired of the CAP politics destroying capable leaders! I would go so far as to say that Indiana Wing would be better off with Col. Bryan as the wing commander...but then again he would still be the commander had it not been for the higher officers not doing their job right!...the press release was the lowest thing that CAP could have done! It should have to be consented by Maxwell AFB but it wasn't...and the only reason that I can see for it's purpose in being issued was to smear the name of these two gents so that it would taint any further investigation; a permanent spin on the issue if you will!...but the fact that so many people who know them have quickly spread the word that what these two men didn't do what they have been accused of is proof in itself of these two men's character! They would never and all their wingmen got their backs on this issue!...and whats more of a testimony for their character is the fact that while they are getting hosed for nothing they did, they are taking it like men! When asked about CAP they don't smear it, they encourage any members to keep trucking along and wish them well! I think that the higher up officers need to pay attention to these two men and need to learn something from them! If we had more men like these two as leaders then we would be so much better off! 

[BuckeyeDEJ]

Truth is not always a defense. If you can prove malicious intent, you could well win a case.

[John Bryan]

1. I am an LPN , not an RN.....but I am working on it.   I am a former EMT but my EMT certification is expired.

2. I will not trash CAP or any of its leaders in public and I would encourage all others to follow that lead. True or not it does not help CAP to have members trashing or speaking ill of our, or maybe I should say your leaders.  Praise in public and address the negitive inside the organization.  If you see areas that are unfair or not working then work inside the system to try and fix them.

To all those who emailed, PM or called me with words of support , thank you. Stay positive...all the negitives just hurt the organization.

Thanks

[DNall]

Let me say here something about officership... You NEVER get credit for what you do. If you do an amazing job, your boss gets ALL the credit for that performance. YOU get credit for the performance of your assigned people, cause you as a leader provided the guidance, plans/pgms, motivation, facilitated their performance, and marshaled their efforts to complete the mission tasks. Their performance IS the evaluation of you, your performance is the evaluation of how well or poorly your boss is executing those leader tasks with the people assigned to him (namely you). For better or worse, that's life & it's generally right on target for judging leadership.

I don't care about yall's past politics. If you can't rise above that and behave as professionals w/o a grudge, then you aren't a very good officer. If you're waiting for credit for your work, then you are a crappy officer. If every time someone pats you on the back you passionately divert all the credit to your troops, and if you slave away knowing everything you do is to better serve your boss & make them look good by your accomplishments, then you're on the right track.

[BuckeyeDEJ]

DNall, I want to agree with you, but too many people have been hosed by being "good little soldiers."

At some point, you need to toot your own horn, especially in an organization where sometimes politics pushes other things out of the limelight. That's about the only way to stay in the fray sometimes....

That said, and without commenting directly on the terminations in Indiana (which I think I've done a pretty good job of doing), politics needs to be cast aside more often in CAP.

MISSION FIRST. Not who you like or don't like. Team players, please, all the way up and down the food chain.

[Capt Rivera]

Also, the decisions are published in the on-line edition of the "Volunteer"  for all to see.

The on line edition has additional stuff?

[desertengineer1]

Let me say here something about officership... You NEVER get credit for what you do. If you do an amazing job, your boss gets ALL the credit for that performance. YOU get credit for the performance of your assigned people, cause you as a leader provided the guidance, plans/pgms, motivation, facilitated their performance, and marshaled their efforts to complete the mission tasks. Their performance IS the evaluation of you, your performance is the evaluation of how well or poorly your boss is executing those leader tasks with the people assigned to him (namely you). For better or worse, that's life & it's generally right on target for judging leadership.

I don't care about yall's past politics. If you can't rise above that and behave as professionals w/o a grudge, then you aren't a very good officer. If you're waiting for credit for your work, then you are a crappy officer. If every time someone pats you on the back you passionately divert all the credit to your troops, and if you slave away knowing everything you do is to better serve your boss & make them look good by your accomplishments, then you're on the right track.

This subject is much bigger than CAP, or even all the military services.  It's probably the largest single spectrum subject in officer development, from ROTC to AWC and beyond.

As an officer in the military, you must FULLY accept a few things - this is one.  The very nature of the oath you take, the direct authority the president gives you, and the serious role you undertake demands it. 

You must be willing to accept the risk that (other than giving your life if necessary) an officer career has NO guarantees.  The only thing you may be entitled to is the opportunity - and that comes after the sacrifices and work. 

This includes the risk that you will never get credit for even the most heroic actions or deeds.  You better be fully accepting that if you are the one who saves mankind, no one might ever know about it - and you might even lose your life or career in the process.

That is one of the core realities of any officer. 

Now, among all the traits and requirements scattered about, and the subject of centuries of leadership study, are a few difficult things.  One of these is, in my opinion, the situation of telling a commander (or chain) that they screwed up.  Thousands of people have died throughout US military history because someone didn't speak up.  As a Nav student, we were subjected to hundreds of CRM briefings about this, many with cockpit audio recordings of such a thing.  Someone knew someone was screwing up and NEVER SAID A THING.

As much as I hate to do it, I have to remind everyone that in CAP you ARE NOT commissioned officers.  May of you are retired, or currently serving as one, but in this arena, you are a member of a different organization. The professionalism still applies, but I do claim that one of our responsibilities is to call some things honestly.  This "Press release" is one such time.

We have leaders in our midst who, by any number of reasons, sometimes don't make the best choices.  Sometimes they were not mentored on the correct thing to do.  Other times they didn't have a wingman there to help them, or didn't have proper guidance from regulations.  This list could go on and on.

None of this, however, will change if other leaders don't step in when required.  THAT is why this "press release" bugged me so much.  Investigations and 2B's happen all the time.  But there was an entire chain of checks that failed here - and it was within WEEKS of the safety stand down where "CULTURE" was spoken about.  THAT is what disturbs me the most.

In that respect, I'm going to speak up.  This should be a warning to everyone of deeper issues, and it should be the duty of others to step up to the plate and deal with it.

[DNall]

^ That's pretty well said. I find it hard to fault any of that.

DNall, I want to agree with you, but too many people have been hosed by being "good little soldiers."

At some point, you need to toot your own horn, especially in an organization where sometimes politics pushes other things out of the limelight. That's about the only way to stay in the fray sometimes....

That said, and without commenting directly on the terminations in Indiana (which I think I've done a pretty good job of doing), politics needs to be cast aside more often in CAP.

MISSION FIRST. Not who you like or don't like. Team players, please, all the way up and down the food chain.

If you're not aware of this, the politics in the real military, especially among officers, is FAR FAR worse than CAP.

He who toots his own horn is a dirtbag. There are plenty ways to get your horn tooted when it needs to be, but that's not how you get ahead.

I'm not saying good little soldier does what's told & stays quiet. Not at all. You lead the way & cause your organization to perform, you keep things off your boss' desk to make their life easier, and you work hard so they look good. When you do that, your boss is beholden to you. They in turn toot your horn for you, and bring you along as they rise up.

You get ahead by being ahead. And you do it with work ethic & integrity. Of course you speak truth to power. They may hate it, and it may screw you, but any leader worth a crap will respect and appreciate you for doing it, even if you're wrong. The key is doing it professionally. Not just tactfully, but within the bounds of your subordinate role. If/when they hear you out & overrule you, you salute & charge those guns. That's where Billy Mitchell screwed up, but he did it with integrity & it made the Army better by his actions. That's all you can hope for as an officer is to drive forward as a professional for a whole career of pain and sacrifice, only to find yourself at the end retired in anonymity, or falling on your sword, and you have really no control over which it'll be.

[BuckeyeDEJ]

DNall, I don't disagree. I guess what it boils down to is that you have to know when to pick your battles, knowing that integrity is first and foremost.

And, oh, yes, I know there's politics in the Real Military....

[DNall]

Sure you have to pick your battles, but not really in terms of making yourself look good. You just have to do your job really well, with integrity, which means calling your boss out privately & professionally when appropriate. If you're highly successful in your work, your boss will reward you. You don't have to trumpet your accomplishments. People will see thru the humility & respect you more for it.

This whole thing above is a deplorable example of people not behaving like officers. If you wanna know why people in the AF look back across here & don't always have a lot of respect for CAP... it's behavior like that, not even the actions themselves, but the character & professionalism. It is indeed a major cultural issue that will always hold CAP back till we're willing to address it more radically.