This one smells to high heaven boys and girls

[BuckeyeDEJ]

Don't get me wrong -- I'm not saying we should all instantly become our own public-relations people. There are occasions when you have to step into the limelight, though, especially if you're in a situation where you're getting pooped on. I understand that we have to make our bosses look good... even when we're the bosses, we still have someone above to make look good.

I agree with you on the culture of pettiness that sometimes rears its ugly head. And as long as some CAP positions are elected -- which requires politics -- and appointments flow from those elected decisions, we'll have a certain degree of politics, even if the rest of the crap gets cut. We either accept it and move forward, try to reform it (seems there's been some of that lately?) or we get mired in it and do nothing.

Ah, heck, as long as there are people, there will be difficulties, whether in CAP or elsewhere. We could ban people, but then who'd get the work done? Those planes don't fly themselves real well....

[DNall]

Give it time & they'll come up with planes that do fly themselves pretty well & don't much need our weight or eyeballs next to the window to get it done. That's another subject though.

It's not even the pettiness. That goes on in the military too. The big difference there is advancement (both rank and positions) is meaningful, and far from automatic. Your reputation means everything. If you're a hard driving hard working squared away sharp individual with strong character/ethics & professionalism, you're going to work to make your boss look great by accomplishing the mission with the least pressure on them... well then you're going to get promoted, and your going to get important positions, and you're going to be brought along by more senior officers that'll take care of you.

In CAP, yeah elected positions is insane. Our elective system is even more jacked up then that. If they were elected by the membership, then they'd be responsible to the membership & not the government, but that's not the case, thank God or it would be a jacked up civilian flying club. If they were appointed by the AF, then they'd be responsible to the AF, which I would certainly favor. As it is, they're elected by the NB & so are responsive only to the internal politics of the NB. That's setting yourself up for failure right there, and the example just trickles down to every other level of the organization.

From a ground up perspective, we're so concerned with getting & keeping members at any cost, that we're not concerned with standards. I understand we need people. But not every one of them needs to be an officer. Being an officer means something. It certainly means something to people in the military, and when they see us using those titles/insignia & not trained, tested, competent, capable, or professional... well, that's going to breed problems that can't be overcome.

I would favor a system that put all members into the enlisted side, with a progression thru the mid grade levels there which is similar to what we have now. SNCO grades preserved for leadership roles, & a strong 1Sgt system to represent membership to the highest levels. Officers are managers & executives. There should be standards, competitive applications, and selection boards just to get into the training. The training should actually take that higher quality raw material, test their commitment, and train them to lead. Completion of our current level 2 is just barely getting into the range of what someone should know before they can be a 2LT. We don't have a professional capable officer corps, and it's messed the hell up. When you allow people that haven't endured the character and commitment test to rise unimpeded in the organization, many times over people who would pass those tests, then you end up with a skewed command structure - with a culture of mostly well-meaning people doomed to fail by their own limitations.

I don't blame those people. They were just never taught or guided or reinforced or mentored or held accountable by a system and culture that leads to success. And I don't just mean in the military. The same standards are just as equally true in any successful business of decent size. I believe the fundamental structure of CAP is jacked up & in need of somewhat radical change. That'll probably never happen unless someone is dumb enough to elect me president, and I wouldn't count on that, but it's not hard to see the major problems with who we are & translate from there to situations like this thread is about or why we don't get more volume or more meaningful missions.

[FlexCoder]

Well said DNall....I agree with you about the Senior Program, enlisted ranks are a must for the Senior Program and the Senior Officer Levels I-V need a major upgrade and improvement as well.   How can a Senior Officer become a better, trained leader with 4 one time school requirements, 5 Levels & a bunch of misc add-ons.  Once you get past Level 5, then what! 

I remember as a Cadet it was a lot of hard work & discipline to get the Mitchell but once you achieve it, it is an honor & has meaning and most important, you continue to get better as you progress through the cadet Officer ranks.  I feel for the new Senior that has no prior experience and as a result, a lot of unnecessary errors as an Officer happen.  Those basic leadership flaws are fixed at the enlisted level before Officer is even achieved.  The cadet enlisted ranks weeds out the bad and molds you into becoming a better Officer in the Cadet Program.  It's kind of like boot camp but extended.   And cadet achievements are awarded through ceremonies.  After a Senior completes level4/5, many of us get the award, like me in the mail or if your lucky you may get awarded at a CAP event.    The awards don't really mean much but a sense of belonging & accomplishment does.   It's a big deal in the Cadet program but in the Senior program, they could care less unless a photo op is present.   

Compare the Cadet vs Senior Program - which program develops better, disciplined leaders that represent the core values, the cadets by a mile.  Most cadets look very sharp & are professional in & out of their uniforms.   Cadets get upset because many Seniors don't lead by example and look like a bunch of bums and act like a bunch of kids in a street turf fight!     However, CAP does have good Senior Officers but when you mix all the poorly trained & unprepared in the mix, it gets diluted quite quickly.     And not all cadets are good but the Cadet advancement system is far superior though.    Enlisted ranks & advancement training would prepare Seniors to become better Officers but we lack that key ingredient.     Every aspect of our program is affected by leadership.   

Indiana Winggate is a good example as well as many other Wings that have leaders that lack the basic fundamentals &/or need annual refreshers in leadership.   All the parties involved in Indiana Wing are at fault in some which way or form.    Termination is rather harsh for two safety violations for a lifetime of service.  We all make mistakes, usually unintentional but we cannot escape the consequences though.  Suspension 'without pay' may have been more appropriate without global announcement.   

Senior Program is in need of major reform and a system that develops, fine tunes Seniors into becoming better leaders.      Many gripe about the USAF but without USAF funding and involvement, CAP would seize to exist.   The USAF deserves a lot more respect especially in how we wear the USAF type uniform & how we as CAP leaders conduct ourselves in/out of uniform.    USAF involvement as well as other branches and former cadets would be beneficial in helping CAP modernize and develop a new, better Senior Advancement Leadership system.   It starts at National!

[Eclipse]

Well said DNall....I agree with you about the Senior Program, enlisted ranks are a must for the Senior Program and the Senior Officer Levels I-V need a major upgrade and improvement as well. 

This again?

There is no place for an enlisted / officer caste system in CAP because there is no way to divide the grunt work from the management work in a volunteer organization that is begging for membership - slick sleeve SMWOG's will continue to be activity POC's and sometimes even commanders, and general officers will continue to empty the garbage cans after meetings.

You can argue that the grade system itself needs to go, and simply have commanders and everyone else, but enlisted is never going to work in today's CAP.

As to comparing the cadet program to the senior program, you can stop that, too.  I agree 100% that CC's need to be kicking people in the FPOC about bearing, uniforms, and attitude, however the goal and intent of the CP vs. the Senior program are entirely different.

The cadet program is about what a young person can take from the program, and thus the expectations of performance are higher because so are the personal rewards.  The senior program is about what a developed adult can bring to the program and in turn public service.  The expectations should not be lower, but the practical reality of dealing with adults gets in the way, especially, again, when there are way too many situations where the only adult willing isn't "Senior Member of the Year", but is a good guy who wants to help, and is willing to unlock the doors every week.

There are many of us who do understand the mandate and responsibility which comes with the uniform, opportunities, and rewards, and what we find is that real "full-bore" CAP membership takes 10-20+ hours a week or more, which is not time most rank-and-file members can give consistently, so you wind up with a lot of "ticket punching" at all levels just to keep the wheels moving.

The entirety of the problems with the program could be fixed in a week by enforcing existing regulations properly,  having the uncomfortable conversations too many commanders avoid, and accepting the likely 25+% attrition that raised expectations would bring.

You can't have it both ways - either you continue to accept marginal members and units to try and do "the best you can" or you raise the bar and accept the consequences.

I vote for #2.

[FlexCoder]

This Again, you got it......we just got started

There is no place for an enlisted / officer caste system in CAP because there is no way to divide the grunt work from the management work in a volunteer organization that is begging for membership - slick sleeve SMWOG's will continue to be activity POC's and sometimes even commanders, and general officers will continue to empty the garbage cans after meetings.

You can argue that the grade system itself needs to go, and simply have commanders and everyone else, but enlisted is never going to work in today's CAP.

As to comparing the cadet program to the senior program, you can stop that, too.  I agree 100% that CC's need to be kicking people in the FPOC about bearing, uniforms, and attitude, however the goal and intent of the CP vs. the Senior program are entirely different.

The cadet program is about what a young person can take from the program, and thus the expectations of performance are higher because so are the personal rewards.  The senior program is about what a developed adult can bring to the program and in turn public service.  The expectations should not be lower, but the practical reality of dealing with adults gets in the way, especially, again, when there are way too many situations where the only adult willing isn't "Senior Member of the Year", but is a good guy who wants to help, and is willing to unlock the doors every week.

There are many of us who do understand the mandate and responsibility which comes with the uniform, opportunities, and rewards, and what we find is that real "full-bore" CAP membership takes 10-20+ hours a week or more, which is not time most rank-and-file members can give consistently, so you wind up with a lot of "ticket punching" at all levels just to keep the wheels moving.

The entirety of the problems with the program could be fixed in a week by enforcing existing regulations properly,  having the uncomfortable conversations too many commanders avoid, and accepting the likely 25+% attrition that raised expectations would bring.

You can't have it both ways - either you continue to accept marginal members and units to try and do "the best you can" or you raise the bar and accept the consequences.

I vote for #2.

"Begging for membership", quite the opposite, many are begging to get out of CAP and join a better program.    Commanders and everything else, what does that mean (master & slaves).  The Cadet Program is not about what a cadet can "take" from the program.   And what if the Senior is not developed, then what, they usually end up quiting or have major blunders as a result!   The current Senior Program isn't enough training in regard to officer development and leadership.   And why would enlisted rank expectations be considered lower, what NCO rank not good enough for CAP!.   Fixing all of the problems with the current system would never resolve in a week.    A lot of CAP's membership woes & retention issues are because of this flawed system.  And yes we can have it many proven, better ways without dire consequences.   

Enlisted ranks worked in WWII for the Seniors!  They currently work in JROTC, ROTC, Military Schools/Academies, Reserves & the Military.   Why not CAP? 

I vote for you to become a Cadet Basic at an Encampment for one week.

[Eclipse]

Flex, I would suggest you re-read my post above and spend some time reviewing the endless discussions of this topic here on CT. 

Without trying to spark another argument, you're not understanding what I wrote, and I don't believe you actually understand the NCO / Officer situation in the military, which is specifically designed to physically, emotionally, and practically, separate the "doers" from the "planners".  That will never scale in CAP.

If your suggestion is to put stripes on arms just to make senior progression akin to cadet progression, that's a mis-guided idea.

As to the cadet program, few 12 year olds have anything to give to CAP but their time, that's the whole point, they are there to learn, absorb, and take from the program.

"Begging for membership", quite the opposite, many are begging to get out of CAP and join a better program.

I can't imagine the mental process that would have someone begging to leave yet unable to figure out how. 

We are most certainly begging for members.  Depending on who's numbers you choose to believe, we have shrunk as much as 16% in the last decade, and that doesn't account for the empty shirts that many commanders refuse to remove from the ranks.

The are way too many units all over the country that are running at below charter requirements, and/or are one senior member quitting away from folding.

[FlexCoder]

I understand the NCO/Officer system completely, not only in the US but overseas as well.   It doesn't really matter what you think, I think or anyone in CAP for that matter.  CAP will continue to use the current system regardless.

Besides if you haven't heard, CAP may become the new Civilian National Air Security Patrol by the new administration next year.  Instead of beeping box hunts, we will get to play soldier in the air and on the ground and keep the public under control.  So, therefore, the old CAP would be a thing of the past!

[DNall]

Well said DNall....I agree with you about the Senior Program, enlisted ranks are a must for the Senior Program and the Senior Officer Levels I-V need a major upgrade and improvement as well. 

This again?

There is no place for an enlisted / officer caste system in CAP because there is no way to divide the grunt work from the management work in a volunteer organization that is begging for membership - slick sleeve SMWOG's will continue to be activity POC's and sometimes even commanders, and general officers will continue to empty the garbage cans after meetings.

That's not what it's about. I do that stuff at times as an Army officer so my enlisted troops can stay on task. It has nothing to do with a caste system or status. It has everything to do with finding the best and brightest among us, and giving them the tools/training/etc to become effective executive leaders.

The senior program is about what a developed adult can bring to the program and in turn public service.  The expectations should not be lower, but the practical reality of dealing with adults gets in the way, especially, again, when there are way too many situations where the only adult willing isn't "Senior Member of the Year", but is a good guy who wants to help, and is willing to unlock the doors every week.

Certainly we need the guy unlocking the door so the activity can go down. But, he's not in the executive trainee program is he? He's not in this organization to command, he doesn't really want to be Wg/CC. He wants to be a local operator & accomplish the ground level mission. That's great. We need a whole lot of people like that. But, we also need effective leader/managers across the organization.

What we do now is not seperate the two groups. We compromise our training to the middle ground that can be delivered to everyone at the least common denominator level. The problem is that's completely worthless for the Sq level operator, and equally worthless for the management track executive. Training can't be all things to all people, and all people can't become anything the organization needs them to be, not even with unlimited resources.

There are many of us who do understand the mandate and responsibility which comes with the uniform, opportunities, and rewards, and what we find is that real "full-bore" CAP membership takes 10-20+ hours a week or more, which is not time most rank-and-file members can give consistently, so you wind up with a lot of "ticket punching" at all levels just to keep the wheels moving.

That's exactly the kind of time commitment involved in being a part-time officer in the guard. 90% of our enlisted troops don't do anything like that. They show up for drill, do their job, and go home. Any officer or senior NCO in a staff or leadership position has to do significantly more work outside that official work period to make the thing work. But see, people willing & capable of doing that move into those ranks & positions.

In CAP, we have a badge or ribbon to tell you all kinds of things about a person w/o conversation, but there is no way for me to tell the person dug in doing the work nor their leadership/mgmt capabilities or history of success. There is no training program to take those committed and capable individuals and nurture their abilities over the course of a career so that they can carry that commitment to higher levels of the organization. What we got is just a crap shoot, and it goes bad more than it goes good just based on human nature.

You can't have it both ways - either you continue to accept marginal members and units to try and do "the best you can" or you raise the bar and accept the consequences.

That's well said. Our attrition rate now is much higher than that. We can't keep the doors open without a quantity of members, but certainly there should be an enforced quality standard there, though it need not be a 'next national commander' standard. But that doesn't free us from also needing effective leaders & managers. We desperately need those & it's not something most of the general public can bring to the table. Especially because of the unique nature of our organization, that's always going to be something we need to develop internally. If we're not committed to that, then this whole thing is a waste of time & the govt's money.

[MIKE]

This one is sooo done.