CAP officers and high school diplomas

[Rob Sherlin]

  Rules and regulations can always be changed.......When you set something in stone to the point where it can't be changed, you're pretty much saying it's perfect....NOTHING IN THIS WORLD IS PERFECT!......Once you close the mind to such possibilities, then you stop learning there is more.

  I'm glad to see there's a lot of people who agree that when it comes down to it, a diploma is just a piece of paper that proves you went through high school to completion, but it doesn't judge your capability (even as far as diplomas are concerned, there's people who pass with high GPA, and people who just make it by the skin of their teeth)

  For someone who is young and just out of high school, I'd want to see a diploma or GED and want to know their plans in life. For someone older, I'd tend to look at what they've accomplished, where they're at now, their goals, etc.

[Short Field]

The application asks for education level completed, IIRC.  Guess we're supposed to take them at their word.

Good.  If I had a slug I didn't want to promoted and he didn't show a high school completion (GED or diploma) in the database, it could be nice to ask to see it.  If I had a good person, I would ask them to just correct their application to show the date of their high school completion...

[Capt Rivera]

Good.  If I had a slug I didn't want to promoted and he didn't show a high school completion (GED or diploma) in the database, it could be nice to ask to see it.  If I had a good person, I would ask them to just correct their application to show the date of their high school completion...

Does not sound like you would be promoting based on set and defined standards... If you did that you would be asking for someone to contact the next level in the COC to get you removed from command....

As a commander, you need legitimate reasons to approve/disapprove promotion. If you don't have a level playing field as far as requirements & expectancies your asking for discrimination issues... [the "slug" will choose which category fits to his/her situation best]

If you don't promote someone because they are incompetent, does not display the appropriate demeanor, leadership traits, skills, knowledge or does not actively participate, that is all fine and correct... You should be able to define those things to that person and anyone else and your definition should be the same no matter who your dealing with...

Simply put... if you request to physically see a diploma from one... you need to do the same for all....

As a PDO, when someone meets the minimums required, I put the paperwork in and its up to the commander from there... If the promotion is denied, all I need to know is why, and what needs to be met for it to go through so that I can relate that information to the member and work with them to accomplish their goals....
After all, promotions are earned not given...

If I was told, that person is a slug, I don't like him and I just won't promote him... with no reason why not, or if the commander was to arbitrarily use a regulation citation to not promote someone but has no history of previous use and then does not continue to use that particular regulation from that point on... rest assured I would recommend that the commander resign before I asked the next command level to fire him/her for cause....

There are plenty of legit reasons to not promote someone... Just keep it legit when you choose not to promote that good for nothing slug... 

[Short Field]

^^^^ First, my post was in jest.  Second, it would be a legitimate reason not to promote - the person does not have a HS diploma or GED.  It is spelled out in the regs.  End of story.

[Cecil DP]

^^^^ First, my post was in jest.  Second, it would be a legitimate reason not to promote - the person does not have a HS diploma or GED.  It is spelled out in the regs.  End of story.

Now if National just collected updated information upon renewal or provided a way to update it under E-services, your argument would be legitimate.  But they don't and when filling out a CAPF2 or initiating a promotion under E-services that criteria is not listed. 

[Capt Rivera]

^^^^ First, my post was in jest.  Second, it would be a legitimate reason not to promote - the person does not have a HS diploma or GED.  It is spelled out in the regs.  End of story.

Not if your applying the requirement only to the people you choose to require it from. Which is what you clearly indicated.

Good.  If I had a slug I didn't want to promoted and he didn't show a high school completion (GED or diploma) in the database, it could be nice to ask to see it.  If I had a good person, I would ask them to just correct their application to show the date of their high school completion...

Jesting or not... you should read up on the ethics of command

[Short Field]

I don't worry about my ethics - and there is nothing CAP can teach me about ethics of command that I didn't get embedded into my very fiber from the USAF before I retired.  If my ethics were ever an issue I would not have survived leading almost 1600 people (all branches of the RM plus foreign officers and civilians) for three years in my last assignment.  Didn't do too badly as we did earn two JMUAs and one CIA citation.  I get called a lot of things, but unethical has never been one of them.

However, you have totally missed the entire intent of this discussion and my rhetorical comments which is that NO ONE EVER GOES BACKS AND CHECKS A PERSON"S APPLICATION TO SEE IF A PERSON HAS A HS DIPLOMA BEFORE PROMOTING THEM.  It is NOT one of the checks in the promotion module of eServices or on the CAPF 2 and because it is not, it will not be check.  If National was really serious about this requirement, they would have added it to the promotion module and the CAPF 2.

FYI, I have never promoted or recommend someone for promotion who has not satisfied all the requirements I am aware of for promotion nor have I ever denied promotion to anyone who has met the requirements.  The only exception to this would be promotion of members without a HS diploma or GED and that is simply because until this thread started, it never passed my mind to check before promoting anyone to 2Lt. 

[SarDragon]

CAWG requires an additional entry in the remarks section:

2. In Section VIII (Remarks) of CAPF 2, enter:
(a) Member's date of birth.
(b) Statement that the member is a high school graduate or has the educational equivalent.
(c) Statement that the member has been performing his/her duties in an exemplary manner and is recommended for promotion by the unit commander.
(d) For mission related promotions the unit commander must certify that the member is actively utilizing his/her mission related skills in behalf of CAP on a regular basis.

The above information is provided for informational purposes only, and is neither a positive nor negative endorsement of the policy. It solves the perceived problem in the OP.

YMMV. Nomex on.

[DogCollar]

To be appointed a Chaplain in CAP an applicant must submit a college and seminary transcript, because the application process has educational requirements.  If we require a High School diploma or GED for other members to be promoted, it would make since to require some documentation. 

[Capt Rivera]

I don't worry about my ethics - and there is nothing CAP can teach me about ethics of command that I didn't get embedded into my very fiber from the USAF before I retired.  If my ethics were ever an issue I would not have survived leading almost 1600 people (all branches of the RM plus foreign officers and civilians) for three years in my last assignment.  Didn't do too badly as we did earn two JMUAs and one CIA citation.  I get called a lot of things, but unethical has never been one of them.

However, you have totally missed the entire intent of this discussion and my rhetorical comments which is that NO ONE EVER GOES BACKS AND CHECKS A PERSON"S APPLICATION TO SEE IF A PERSON HAS A HS DIPLOMA BEFORE PROMOTING THEM.  It is NOT one of the checks in the promotion module of eServices or on the CAPF 2 and because it is not, it will not be check.  If National was really serious about this requirement, they would have added it to the promotion module and the CAPF 2.

FYI, I have never promoted or recommend someone for promotion who has not satisfied all the requirements I am aware of for promotion nor have I ever denied promotion to anyone who has met the requirements.  The only exception to this would be promotion of members without a HS diploma or GED and that is simply because until this thread started, it never passed my mind to check before promoting anyone to 2Lt. 

yea okay... I'll just let the issue lie

[Eclipse]

NO ONE EVER GOES BACKS AND CHECKS A PERSON"S APPLICATION TO SEE IF A PERSON HAS A HS DIPLOMA BEFORE PROMOTING THEM.

My people will now....

[BillB]

What do you do if a member hasn't graduated from high school, but graduated from a University? I know several that fall into this grouping.

[NC Hokie]

What do you do if a member hasn't graduated from high school, but graduated from a University? I know several that fall into this grouping.

This isn't an official answer but I'd say that would do the trick as a high school diploma or equivalent is required for admission to most universities.  If the university decides that someone has met those requirements and then awards a degree, that ought to be good enough for us.

[Eclipse]

What do you do if a member hasn't graduated from high school, but graduated from a University? I know several that fall into this grouping.

How would they get into a university without a high school diploma or GED?

[notaNCO forever]

What do you do if a member hasn't graduated from high school, but graduated from a University? I know several that fall into this grouping.

How would they get into a university without a high school diploma or GED?

Go to community college get a diploma from there and transfer.

[Al Sayre]

I have actually denied a promotion based on no HS Diploma twice.  I had two 18yr-old cadets transfer to Senior Member status while still in High School.  They were very suprised when I told them no promotion to FO until they graduated... 

[Smitty]

I have actually denied a promotion based on no HS Diploma twice.  I had two 18yr-old cadets transfer to Senior Member status while still in High School.  They were very suprised when I told them no promotion to FO until they graduated... 

I did the same thing, but I only had to wait a few weeks because I went Senior the same month I graduated.  My records were never actually updated to reflect graduation either.  Funny thing is that I don't have any idea where my HS diploma is anyway, not tha it matters anyway.

[BillB]

Eclipse.....
Many colleges allow an enterence exam rather than a HS diploma. They also allow college credits for military courses based on American Council on Education recommendations. The enterence exam concept seems to have strengthened after the Korean war when many high school students that had enlisted in the reserves were called to active duty prior to graduation.

[Short Field]

I only have one issue with requiring a HS diplomas for promotion.  We require it but we never ask to see it.  If it is a requirement, we need to validate that it does exist and then enter it into eServices so it is recorded.  We are required to validate that other certificates and degrees actually exist when we promote people based on advanced education or skills.   The HS diploma is not required in the personal file.  We have members who transfer in and we never even see their original CAP application as the losing unit didn't give it to the member when he transferred and never responses to requests for it. 

[RiverAux]

Well, like all such things it is up to the commander to check.  If he/she isn't asking, they aren't doing it right.  No national policy change is required, just implementation of the existing rules.