CAP officers and high school diplomas

[RiverAux]

One of the requirements to become a CAP officer (and one for which there is no waiver) is to possess a high school diploma or equivalent (CAPR 35-5 1-6b). 

I recently checked my wing and according to CAPWATCH about 7% of the senior members who had their education levels listed had 11th grade or below education listed.  Now, when I looked a bit closer, its pretty obvious that almost all of them are former cadets who most likely had their grade level entered when they joined and haven't changed it since even after graduation.  However, I did find a handful of older folks who had less than a 12th grade level entered in the database.

Why bring this up?

1.  We've often had discussions of minimum education requirements for CAP officers and I'm not sure I've ever seen it mentioned that we have them now -- they're just not that high.

2.  Unit commanders might want to check on this to make sure that all their folks are listed correctly in the database.  Its not that big a deal, but why leave electronic data laying around that is wrong? 

3.  There may be a few folks out there who probably shouldn't be CAP officers based on this requirement.  I suspect it is a very, very tiny number, but unit commanders shouldn't just assume everyone has one.  To tell the truth, I'm not sure I ever checked that for new members joining my unit back when I was a sq cdr. 

[D2SK]

No offense, but, don't you have anything better to do?

[CAPLAW]

why the negativity?        Good research RIVERAUX.

[Short Field]

Applications go to National to be vetted before a person becomes a member.  If National accepts the member, then I am not going to second guess National.

CAP has been around long enough that even 50 year members could have entered as a Cadet.   I would also wonder what year the requirement for a high school education was created.  If you are checking CAPWATCH, I wouldn't worry too much about it.  I am sure when National first went to computers, a lot of invalid data was entered - especially on a field that would mean nothing to CAP (If Member then must have a H.S. Edu).  

Let sleeping dogs lie....

[RiverAux]

Ah, but you misunderstand... You can still be a senior member without a high school diploma -- either as an NCO or a senior member without grade.  So NHQ isn't going to care one way or the other what they say on their initial application. 

The high school diploma requirement only applies once you want to become a 2nd Lt. (or another rank through special appointment). 

FYI, there is a substantial minority of seniors who don't have any education level listed. 

[RiverAux]

No offense, but, don't you have anything better to do?

No.  Feel free to suggest a topic yourself -- if we all only started 1 topic every three months as some people do, there wouldn't be much action here.

[arajca]

OT...

No offense, but, don't you have anything better to do?

No.  Feel free to suggest a topic yourself -- if we all only started 1 topic every three months as some people do, there wouldn't be much action here.

Then again, there are enough of use here that there would be plenty to discuss...

[Flying Pig]

Good Grief Charlie Brown

[Rob Sherlin]

  Well, You also have to take in consideration that not all schools are the same as far as education level. I see 11th grade students out here studying the same books I studied in 9th grade in California. So, if what you're getting at is that a person who didn't complete high school shouldn't become an officer, than I'd have to disagree. I didn't complete high school. I dropped out of 11th grade and went to work as a stat camera operator and technical illustration trainee for Volt Technical, working on manuals and diagrams for Rockwell International, for Nasa's Space Shuttle Program. I did go back and get my GED though. I tend to think that a diploma just shows that you've completed high school, but it doesn't show your intelligence or what your capable of.
   But, if it's a requirement, then I'd better find a way to get a copy of my GED (my original was stolen with my file cabinet after I moved here to Niagara Falls and my apartment was burglarized), because I don't want to be held back because of a piece of paper.

[Rob Sherlin]

 Forgot to mention..When I dropped out for the job, I had allready been Flight Commander in my first year, and was last promoted to 2d.Lt. in  AFJROTC at my high school 3 months before I left, if that is any positive influence to my last input.
(sadly, it was too long ago to use in CAP......God I'm gettin' old!)

[Pylon]

Applications go to National to be vetted before a person becomes a member.  If National accepts the member, then I am not going to second guess National.

I have to disagree here.  The gaining unit and the commander are directly responsible for "vetting" new members.  That's why we have membership committees at the unit level.  That's why the commander or his/her representative must sign-off on all applicants before they hit national HQ.  The gaining unit should be ensuring the applicant meets all criteria, and should also be educating the member about the requirements, expectations and standards of membership.

National isn't going to look into everything.  They process the signed application, get the background screening info for SM applicants and put them in the database. 

So when you discover, during the membership interview you should be doing, that the potential new member doesn't have a high school diploma, it would be important here for one to let the applicant know that it will prevent them from holding CAP officer grade though they can still participate in most aspects of the CAP program.  If they find out after the fact, they may feel duped or mislead.

[winterg]

Well said Pylon and good topic River.  If it's a reg, it should be followed.  If info is incorrect in a CAP database it should be fixed.  I agree with you that we should pay more attention to some of these details that may seem trivial.  It goes to professionalism.  And if you think a random thought will make an interesting topic thread, post it. 

[LtCol057]

Just a dumb question, but where is the education level listed?  I just checked mine and I don't see it listed anywhere.  And yes, I graduated high school (feels like a hundred years ago), and have 2 degrees.

[RiverAux]

Its in the member table if you download capwatch.  Will take a look at the e-services personal information section later to see if I can find where it can be modified.

[DNall]

Don't know that I've seen it in eServices, and certainly never updated it. I think this is a case of poor data more than anything. I have VERY little faith in most stats that can be drawn from CAP's VERY flawed records.

But, of course we should be checking HS for officers when we submit them for promotion.

You'll find in the military that a GED is not the same as a HS diploma. We can only take a limited number of people with a GED per year, and there's some limitations on what's available to them. The reason for that is we're not talking about academic equiv or intelligence, which is what GED shows. We're showing an ability set goals, persist thru, & overcome to complete a program. That, much more than the major, is why college degrees are required for many jobs. If intelligence or academic knowledge were the more important factor, we'd just give an IQ test & not care about education levels.

I think you'll agree though that for CAP officers, we're looking for people that set an example for our cadets to stay in school, set goals & drive forward till they achieve them.

[RiverAux]

didn't see it in e-services.  It is on the membership applications, so maybe it is something they key in when somebody joins.  You would think there would be a way to update it locally. 

[afgeo4]

The requirement is HS Diploma OR equivalent, right?

[DNall]

yes

[Rob Sherlin]

   Yes, maybe that's how it is in regular military, but we're volunteers of an Auxilary of a Military branch, not actual military.

   If the rules were set too tough to make Officer, or set to where you can't make it at all. I think you'd end up with a lot of people not putting for the effort to learn and move forward in rank.....There would be no point of it. That and a lot of people would probably just quit.

   This way, even if a member never completed high school or anything. They always have a chance to better themselves, go and get there GED, and then be able to be promoted.

[lordmonar]

On the other hand...when you consider the average age of our new members.....getting their GED is probably no high on their agendas.

On that note....are they really all that important when compared to the life experinces that some of these members bring to CAP?