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1st Lt for Life...Oy!!!

Started by Major Carrales, October 11, 2008, 01:33:01 AM

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Rob Sherlin

 You Moderators move this to where it's appropriate (I really didn't want to open a new topic on this)

  Most make it to 2d Lt within a short time. Why even have the many stages of stripes for SM?
To fly freely above the earth is the ultimate dream for me in life.....For I do not wish to wait till I pass to earn my wings.

Rob Sherlin SM, NER-NY-116

BuckeyeDEJ

Ribbons should show training, activity and recognition.

Qualification badges should show experience and expertise.

Grade should indicate level of responsibility and seniority.

CAP turns all that upside-down.

If you want grade to mean something more than "box tops," offer a suggestion -- don't just dig on light colonels who fast-burn. I'd rather that my grade meant something, myself. Otherwise, I have no authority to lead others, unless I'm a commander (well, I am, but I won't always be).

I have no problem with someone who holds at a certain grade. If it's what the member wants, so be it. Captain is a better holding point, just as it is for "real" officers -- there are some fairly old captains on active duty out there. But I'm not going to knock someone for having had first louie bars for eight years. I might make a wisecrack in fun, but I'm not going to knock them.


CAP since 1984: Lt Col; former C/Lt Col; MO, MRO, MS, IO; former sq CC/CD/PA; group, wing, region PA, natl cmte mbr, nat'l staff member.
REAL LIFE: Working journalist in SPG, DTW (News), SRQ, PIT (Trib), 2D1, WVI, W22; editor, desk chief, designer, photog, columnist, reporter, graphics guy, visual editor, but not all at once. Now a communications manager for an international multisport venue.

Stonewall

I guess I could have turned down promotions that came with advancing through the program, but if "rank" isn't that big of a deal, why not accept it.  It's not a big deal to me to have or have not.  I would have attended SLS, CLC, taken ECI 13 and attended RSC either way; to gain experience and knowledge to be a better senior member.  Just so happens, with those courses and time in service/grade, came more rank.

I never once put in for my own promotion.  Squadron and wing commanders submitted my promotion paperwork on my behalf.  What was I going to do, say "silly colonel, rank is for cadets, keep it".  I accepted it, wore it appropriately and set a standard for others to follow.

As for the 1LT4L, I've known several high quality ELL TEEs who had more time as a lieutenant than I had in CAP, but for one reason or another, they didn't promote.  Perhaps they came in as a 1st Lt and didn't see a need to advance in rank, or maybe they were never taught.  If I were a squadron commander and I had a long-term 1st Lt, I'd encourage them to complete ECI 13, attend SLS and get promoted.  If they choose not to, I wouldn't press the issue or pass them up for awards or better duty assignments.

I was a 30 year old Lt Col.  I wasn't too excited about it, but what the heck.  I advanced through a legitimate program without making too much effort.  If the max rank I could achieve was Captain, I would have done the exact same thing, if for nothing more than the training value.
Serving since 1987.

Jimbo

#103
Quote from: NavLT on November 25, 2008, 09:22:27 PM
I can not help but laugh at the issue.  My best friend and I joined CAP at the same time he made it to C/LTC and Me to C/1LT (before going active duty) 20 years later I am a Maj (who may never make it to LTC due to politics) and he is a 1LT for life (ECI 13).  We both are Air Crew, GT, Base Staff.  We both have been Deputy commander and on Group staff.  What is the difference in the real world.  In a year when we are both ICs will it matter that he is a 1LT and I am a Major?  When the next command vacancy comes up will it matter which of us fills the need?

V/R
LT J.


Maybe be a friend and have your ex C/Lt Col read this: Interim Change Letter – CAPR 50-17, CAP Senior Member Professional Development Program and CAPR 280-2, Civil Air Patrol Aerospace Education Mission

Where he will find that because he made it to C/LtCol, he will get credit for ECI 13.

"2. Credit will be awarded to former cadets based on specific accomplishments. Those members who earned the Earhart Award may receive the technician rating in the Cadet Programs Officer
specialty training track. Members who have earned the Eaker Award may be awarded completion of SLS, the CAP Senior Officer Course, and Level II. In addition, members who
earned the Spaatz Award may be awarded the senior rating in the Cadet Programs Officer specialty training track and the Yeager Award."
James Keohane, Lt Col, CAP (Maj, USAFR)
Wing Director of Cadet Programs
Chief of Curriculum/Chief Instructor, Cadet Officer School
--------------------------------------------------------
Previous Units: VA-001, VA-025, TX-023, MA-015, MA-070, MA-032
Billy Mitchell (#49097); Amelia Earhart (#12098); Gen Ira C Eaker (#1239)

SM-MADDOG

I disagree that saying because a 1st Lt has been 1Lt for 5 yrs is lazy. I could say that about people who have higher rank than 1Lt, just because You have the time to travel to take some 2 day class and maybe even money depending on the Levels dont mean that person is any more active than lower ranks in his/her squadron. Im a 2Lt now my Commander dont just promote because You have 6 months in. He didnt promote Me till 3 yrs. I have people who are under rank or me and above who arent as active as iam. Many of us have various reasons for that. I for one am now off on medical now sadly im a security officer, I dididnt get weekends off at the time. Also sometimes I didnt have money to even go take certain special classes. So just because a person may be a 1Lt for 5 years that dont in any way shape or form make that person lazzy. I know someone that is a Major and our lowest ranking person is more active than this person by far.

I also hold the opinion no one should be promoted from SM to 2nd Lt in 6 months. Thats way too short. I think they should have a person start at grade of SM than after 6 months or so get promoted to maybe a FO grade or what ever they came up with. Then maybe after 1 or 2 yrs be allowed to get 2nd Lt. Many people starting out dont know much about CAP in 6 months so Why should they be a 2nd Lt in 6 months?

Quote from: Major Carrales on October 11, 2008, 01:33:01 AM
What is your opinion of the "1st Lt for Life?"

Well, let's first define this person.  As some of you know, one reaches a sort of "road block" at 1st Lt because beyond this is the first promotion that requires a element beyond the unit of local group, the ubiquitous COURSE 13.

So, is there anything to be said for or against a CAP Officer that declines to take that course and remains a 1st Lt for Life?

(NOTE: A bit of a clarification: the bottom two positions are EXAMPLES to demonstrate both sides of the issue based on actual comments I have heard made while in CAP.)
Pros
A 1st Lt for life is pretty much a "unit level" bloke and is likely a solid SQUADRON STAFFER that is a player in the system that makes CAP operate "where the rubber meets the road."  Not a bad thing...eh?

Cons
All CAP Officers should have promotion on their mind/agenda.  Professional Development is the key to CAP, being a 1st Lt longer than five years is a blasphemy, it shows a person is lazy.  Disgraceful!!!

OK, these are both viable points argued in different subjects.  What say you? 
2nd Lt, CAP

CPT Anderson

....and this is why I vote for the SM NCO corps to come back!!!!   >:D
Capt Chelle L. Anderson, CAP
(CPT, US Army, RET)

tjaxe

Quote from: SM-MADDOG on January 22, 2009, 04:05:03 AM
I also hold the opinion no one should be promoted from SM to 2nd Lt in 6 months. Thats way too short. I think they should have a person start at grade of SM than after 6 months or so get promoted to maybe a FO grade or what ever they came up with. Then maybe after 1 or 2 yrs be allowed to get 2nd Lt. Many people starting out dont know much about CAP in 6 months so Why should they be a 2nd Lt in 6 months?

But SM-MADDOG, what about those of us who bust our butts to learn everything we can about CAP, and maybe have learned even more than some people who have been in CAP for way longer?  Besides the 6 months "probationary period" (which is how I look at it) shouldn't promotion be based on achievement, etc. -- not based on an arbitrary length of time considered to be an "appropriate" amount to spend to learn about CAP?



- Tracey, Captain
Public Affairs Officer, Professional Development, Logistics: NER-PA-160

CPT Anderson

#107
Well, in my professional opinion, just like the military, there are *some* (not all, not even close), SMs that come in and get the grade of 2LT and go buck wild on cadets b/c they get saluted, etc and just think they have "so much power."  I spent my enlisted time in the Army before I went to OCS.  I think that there are some SMs that need more work than others and if you can't prove yourself within the first six months (you know there are some out there), there should be a few NCO grades available (TSGT and higher) to provide additional training before we give officer grade to those SMs.  Yes, there are those SMs that are current military that are NCOs that can hold their own military grade in CAP, but I think that there should be an NCO corps for the SMs too......I'm one of 0.34893274329 that believe that though......   :'(
Capt Chelle L. Anderson, CAP
(CPT, US Army, RET)

IceNine

 Meh :-\

2Lt is the same as "thank you for your work, come join the club"

Does it equate to knowledge, or power, or anything beyond C/A1C understanding.  Nope.

You have got to start somewhere, and history shows that if you don't give a pat on the back people stop performing and don't start that crap of I don't ever want to be recognized because I eat razor blades.  The idea with the 2Lt is not to empower it is to set the hook on these green members.

You can walk in off the street, go to 12 weeks of training, and be a 2Lt in the Military.  Do you think they have a clue what it's like to be in the military walking in the door their first day as a butter bar?

Get real, and don't drag this down the same old NCO path again.  Go look at one of the 5 locked threads about that if you want to know the general tone of the board about that subject.
"All of the true things that I am about to tell you are shameless lies"

Book of Bokonon
Chapter 4

CPT Anderson

Oh, trust me, I'm on a board at national discussing this very topic and getting it from all directions, I know the general tone.  ;)
Capt Chelle L. Anderson, CAP
(CPT, US Army, RET)

Eclipse

Quote from: CPT Anderson on January 22, 2009, 05:00:52 AMI'm one of 34893274329 that believe that though...

Its a significantly smaller number that believe an NCO corps has any place in CAP...

"That Others May Zoom"

CPT Anderson

Yeah, my 0.whatever number I put, didn't post the 0. until I reloaded it this time....there are a few of us at "eschelons above reality" that think there should be an NCO corps.....
Capt Chelle L. Anderson, CAP
(CPT, US Army, RET)

Rotorhead

Capt. Scott Orr, CAP
Deputy Commander/Cadets
Prescott Composite Sqdn. 206
Prescott, AZ

SM-MADDOG

Ok but neither does the rank of Major, I know one Major who when she asked what My grade was I said SM, she replies what Is an SM? She didn't know. But thats not everyone. Thats why I dont like to judge a book by its cover. Everyone is different. Also this rank thing, Now that I got promoted I still make 0.00 an hr lol. Im glad I got the promotion and I should have got it way before. Several including other commander's even said I should have got 2Lt along time ago. Now that I have it great, but rank dont mean that much to Me, I like CAP and dont care that I do it volunteer just as im sure the rest of You feel. I just wish more squadrons would promote case by case basis instead of some Who just promote to 2nd Lt because they been a member 6 months and took the orienation and cppt class.

Quote from: IceNine on January 22, 2009, 05:56:28 AM
Meh :-\

2Lt is the same as "thank you for your work, come join the club"

Does it equate to knowledge, or power, or anything beyond C/A1C understanding.  Nope.

You have got to start somewhere, and history shows that if you don't give a pat on the back people stop performing and don't start that crap of I don't ever want to be recognized because I eat razor blades.  The idea with the 2Lt is not to empower it is to set the hook on these green members.

You can walk in off the street, go to 12 weeks of training, and be a 2Lt in the Military.  Do you think they have a clue what it's like to be in the military walking in the door their first day as a butter bar?

Get real, and don't drag this down the same old NCO path again.  Go look at one of the 5 locked threads about that if you want to know the general tone of the board about that subject.

2nd Lt, CAP

SM-MADDOG

#114
Well let me rephrase what I said, as I said in another post on this topic I think squadrons should promote case by case basis and not just because a SM has 6 months in and attended the orientation and ccpt class. Thats the why our squadron co feels, he only promotes after a certain time and if He feels the SM has completed enough requirements and is ready for a rank of 2Lt. But yes if someone came in our squadron and learned allot in 6 months and meets the requirements I say hey promoted them to 2Lt. I should have been promoted along time ago to 2Lt, however thats How I feel and several other people. Now I have 2Lt. But that was My personal feelings on the matter off duty feelings of course lol :)

Quote from: tjaxe on January 22, 2009, 04:26:25 AM
Quote from: SM-MADDOG on January 22, 2009, 04:05:03 AM
I also hold the opinion no one should be promoted from SM to 2nd Lt in 6 months. Thats way too short. I think they should have a person start at grade of SM than after 6 months or so get promoted to maybe a FO grade or what ever they came up with. Then maybe after 1 or 2 yrs be allowed to get 2nd Lt. Many people starting out dont know much about CAP in 6 months so Why should they be a 2nd Lt in 6 months?

But SM-MADDOG, what about those of us who bust our butts to learn everything we can about CAP, and maybe have learned even more than some people who have been in CAP for way longer?  Besides the 6 months "probationary period" (which is how I look at it) shouldn't promotion be based on achievement, etc. -- not based on an arbitrary length of time considered to be an "appropriate" amount to spend to learn about CAP?
2nd Lt, CAP

CPT Anderson

Quote from: SM-MADDOG on January 22, 2009, 10:18:18 AM
Ok but neither does the rank of Major, I know one Major who when she asked what My grade was I said SM, she replies what Is an SM? She didn't know. But thats not everyone. Thats why I dont like to judge a book by its cover. Everyone is different. Also this rank thing, Now that I got promoted I still make 0.00 an hr lol. Im glad I got the promotion and I should have got it way before. Several including other commander's even said I should have got 2Lt along time ago. Now that I have it great, but rank dont mean that much to Me, I like CAP and dont care that I do it volunteer just as im sure the rest of You feel. I just wish more squadrons would promote case by case basis instead of some Who just promote to 2nd Lt because they been a member 6 months and took the orienation and cppt class.

Quote from: IceNine on January 22, 2009, 05:56:28 AM
Meh :-\

2Lt is the same as "thank you for your work, come join the club"

Does it equate to knowledge, or power, or anything beyond C/A1C understanding.  Nope.

You have got to start somewhere, and history shows that if you don't give a pat on the back people stop performing and don't start that crap of I don't ever want to be recognized because I eat razor blades.  The idea with the 2Lt is not to empower it is to set the hook on these green members.

You can walk in off the street, go to 12 weeks of training, and be a 2Lt in the Military.  Do you think they have a clue what it's like to be in the military walking in the door their first day as a butter bar?

Get real, and don't drag this down the same old NCO path again.  Go look at one of the 5 locked threads about that if you want to know the general tone of the board about that subject.


SM - you could have told her Sergeant Major  >:D 
Capt Chelle L. Anderson, CAP
(CPT, US Army, RET)

Rotorhead

Quote from: SM-MADDOG on January 22, 2009, 10:18:18 AM
Ok but neither does the rank of Major, I know one Major who when she asked what My grade was I said SM,
Maybe you shoulda said SMWOG. >:D
Capt. Scott Orr, CAP
Deputy Commander/Cadets
Prescott Composite Sqdn. 206
Prescott, AZ

Short Field

Quote from: SM-MADDOG on January 22, 2009, 10:23:05 AM
I think squadrons should promote case by case basis and not just because a SM has 6 months in and attended the orientation and ccpt class. Thats the why our squadron co feels, he only promotes after a certain time and if He feels the SM has completed enough requirements and is ready for a rank of 2Lt.

I just wish more squadron commanders would learn the regulations and then follow them.  Yes, the squadron commander has the authority to not promote a member - but it should be for a definable cause - not "after a certain time and if he feels the SM has completed enough requirements and is ready".
SAR/DR MP, ARCHOP, AOBD, GTM1, GBD, LSC, FASC, LO, PIO, MSO(T), & IC2
Wilson #2640

tarheel gumby

Quote from: CPT Anderson on January 22, 2009, 02:13:07 PM
Quote from: SM-MADDOG on January 22, 2009, 10:18:18 AM
Ok but neither does the rank of Major, I know one Major who when she asked what My grade was I said SM, she replies what Is an SM? She didn't know. But thats not everyone. Thats why I dont like to judge a book by its cover. Everyone is different. Also this rank thing, Now that I got promoted I still make 0.00 an hr lol. Im glad I got the promotion and I should have got it way before. Several including other commander's even said I should have got 2Lt along time ago. Now that I have it great, but rank dont mean that much to Me, I like CAP and dont care that I do it volunteer just as im sure the rest of You feel. I just wish more squadrons would promote case by case basis instead of some Who just promote to 2nd Lt because they been a member 6 months and took the orienation and cppt class.

Quote from: IceNine on January 22, 2009, 05:56:28 AM
Meh :-\

2Lt is the same as "thank you for your work, come join the club"

Does it equate to knowledge, or power, or anything beyond C/A1C understanding.  Nope.

You have got to start somewhere, and history shows that if you don't give a pat on the back people stop performing and don't start that crap of I don't ever want to be recognized because I eat razor blades.  The idea with the 2Lt is not to empower it is to set the hook on these green members.

You can walk in off the street, go to 12 weeks of training, and be a 2Lt in the Military.  Do you think they have a clue what it's like to be in the military walking in the door their first day as a butter bar?

Get real, and don't drag this down the same old NCO path again.  Go look at one of the 5 locked threads about that if you want to know the general tone of the board about that subject.


SM - you could have told her Sergeant Major  >:D 

?Superman?? ;D
Joseph Myers Maj. CAP
Squadron Historian MER NC 019
Historian MER NC 001
Historian MER 001

CPT Anderson

Capt Chelle L. Anderson, CAP
(CPT, US Army, RET)