Gay/Lesbian Membership Approval/Retention in CAP?

[Frenchie]

As with any member or potential member, if they can do the tasks their assigned, wear one of the multitude of uniforms properly and do nothing stupid then there should be no problem...

With that said if said member does act up etc and you do have it inititate disp action then you better CYA and not let their status influence your decisions in this sue happy society we live in today.

There's no basis to sue.  Homosexuality is not covered by any nondiscrimination statute.  People get fired from paying jobs ever day because of it and there's very little recourse if they are not covered by some type of contract that protects them.

However anyone who wishes to discriminate against someone based on some factor that has nothing to do with their ability to do the mission should seek professional help for their deviant behavior.

[hatentx]

the don't ask don't tell isn't for cap.  there is a huge difference between the military's reason and so reason that cap could come up with. 
in the ad you have to worry about moral and having your battle buddy peeping you in the shower is going to drop moral.  also the military, atleast the army is sometimes quick to fistacufs and imagine what ridicule a straight man would get if he got beat up by a gay man. 
In cap I can see a cadet inflience argument but in the same way I wouldn't expect a straight SM telling of his drunkin weekend deflowering women nor would I expect to hear a homosexual  telling similar stories.
it boils down to professionalism

[RiverAux]

There's no basis to sue.  Homosexuality is not covered by any nondiscrimination statute.

It is in some states.  Just because CAP is a nationwide organization doesn't mean that state laws don't apply to actions taken in those states (California is one example).

[Frenchie]

There's no basis to sue.  Homosexuality is not covered by any nondiscrimination statute.

It is in some states.  Just because CAP is a nationwide organization doesn't mean that state laws don't apply to actions taken in those states (California is one example).

No states that I know of have such laws.  The California law applies to employment discrimination, not volunteer organizations.

[RiverAux]

Ah, but you forget that many states make their non-discrimination policies applicable to any program receiving state funds.  Including California:

From a bill approved a few years ago in CA:

SECTION 1. Section 11135 of the Government Code is amended to
read:
11135. (a) No person in the State of California shall, on the basis of
race, national origin, ethnic group identification, religion, age, sex, sexual
orientation, color, or disability, be unlawfully denied full and equal access
to the benefits of, or be unlawfully subjected to discrimination under, any
program or activity that is conducted, operated, or administered by the
state or by any state agency, is funded directly by the state, or receives any
financial assistance from the state.

As CAP in California is partially funded by the state, it would seem to appy to CA Wing.

[ColonelJack]

Why is this even an issue for some people?  What possible difference could it make to Civil Air Patrol?

Jack

[Frenchie]

Ah, but you forget that many states make their non-discrimination policies applicable to any program receiving state funds.  Including California:

From a bill approved a few years ago in CA:

SECTION 1. Section 11135 of the Government Code is amended to
read:
11135. (a) No person in the State of California shall, on the basis of
race, national origin, ethnic group identification, religion, age, sex, sexual
orientation, color, or disability, be unlawfully denied full and equal access
to the benefits of, or be unlawfully subjected to discrimination under, any
program or activity that is conducted, operated, or administered by the
state or by any state agency, is funded directly by the state, or receives any
financial assistance from the state.

As CAP in California is partially funded by the state, it would seem to appy to CA Wing.

The law in question provides no basis for a lawsuit, only the potential to have state funds revoked.  Even at that, it would also depend on how CAP is receiving such funds.  If CAP is just flying missions for the state and getting reimbursed, that's not going to apply as that's not financial assistance.  Also CAP usually doesn't receive support from states directly because they usually receive it from local governments, but there may be some squadron that has an office in a state funded building.  

[Frenchie]

Why is this even an issue for some people?  What possible difference could it make to Civil Air Patrol?

Jack

I could very easily see a parent raising a stink if a known gay CAP senior member was attending an encampment or some other function where cadets were involved.  In fact, I would be very surprised if this situation hadn't come up before.  I would hope a squadron commander would not be influenced by bigots, but if several parents were involved it would certainly put a commander in a tough spot.

[RiverAux]

Also CAP usually doesn't receive support from states directly because they usually receive it from local governments, but there may be some squadron that has an office in a state funded building. 

About 2/3 of CAP Wings receive state funding. 

[FW]

Gee, it seems like we went over this before.

Anyway, for what it's worth, most states consider an organization to be discriminating against if the organization takes state funds.  Most wings get contributed property/funds from the state.  The funding/property would be in jeopardy if we discriminated against any person for other than proper reasons.
At the national level this, if not considered discrimination, would be considered a civil rights issue which CAP would not or could not (way too expensive) defend.  Of course, our annual grant would be in serious trouble;  as would our tax exempt status.

Speaking on purely an "academic" basis;  If you don't like it, don't join it.  I, for one, don't enjoy fools but, they're all around me.  So, I learned to live with it.

[Senior]

My question still has not been answered.  What is the position that the
National CC holds on the Board of the SLDN?  Someone on this blog should
be able to give an answer.  Is CAP going to turn into another social experiment like the U.S. military has had to endure?

PHall:  The commander of your unit should have kicked those members
           out for violation of the UCMJ.  Don't ask/Don't tell doesn't protect
           openly gay military members if I remember correctly.

Whocares:  The premise of a black/white, civil rights issue is not a logical
                    argument compared to a lifestyle choice.  DA/DT is a social
                    experiment and it caused a lot of morale problems in my
                    Army Reserve unit.     

[PHall]

My question still has not been answered.  What is the position that the
National CC holds on the Board of the SLDN?  Someone on this blog should
be able to give an answer.  Is CAP going to turn into another social experiment like the U.S. military has had to endure?

PHall:  The commander of your unit should have kicked those members
           out for violation of the UCMJ.  Don't ask/Don't tell doesn't protect
           openly gay military members if I remember correctly.

Whocares:  The premise of a black/white, civil rights issue is not a logical
                    argument compared to a lifestyle choice.  DA/DT is a social
                    experiment and it caused a lot of morale problems in my
                    Army Reserve unit.     

You know, the rules are a bit different in the Guard/Reserve. The UCMJ does not apply to Guard/Reserve members when they are not on duty.

And Maj Gen Courter is a pretty easy going person. I bet that she would answer your question if you asked her.

[RiverAux]

My question still has not been answered.  What is the position that the
National CC holds on the Board of the SLDN?

What does that matter?

[FW]

My question still has not been answered.  What is the position that the
National CC holds on the Board of the SLDN?  Someone on this blog should
be able to give an answer.  Is CAP going to turn into another social experiment like the U.S. military has had to endure?


Whocares:  The premise of a black/white, civil rights issue is not a logical
                    argument compared to a lifestyle choice.  DA/DT is a social
                    experiment and it caused a lot of morale problems in my
                    Army Reserve unit.     

Gen Courter's position she holds in  SLDN can be found at its web site.  So can its mission statement and goals.  Her relationship in that organization has no bearing on this discussion, IMO, however, CAP's policy regarding this is: "Not an issue, Not a problem".  

CAP does NOT consider this a "social experiment"  CAP does NOT consider this an issue.  In fact, I know someone on National Staff who can easily get CAPR 39-2 changed to clarify the intent of the organization's non discrimination policy.  But, it's not worth the effort for the opinions of the few.  As I said previously; I learned to live with it.

[Cecil DP]

PHall:  The commander of your unit should have kicked those members
           out for violation of the UCMJ.  Don't ask/Don't tell doesn't protect
           openly gay military members if I remember correctly.

Whocares:  The premise of a black/white, civil rights issue is not a logical
                    argument compared to a lifestyle choice.  DA/DT is a social
                    experiment and it caused a lot of morale problems in my
                    Army Reserve unit.     

CAP does not and never has fallen under the UCMJ.

[afgeo4]

Ah, but you forget that many states make their non-discrimination policies applicable to any program receiving state funds.  Including California:

From a bill approved a few years ago in CA:

SECTION 1. Section 11135 of the Government Code is amended to
read:
11135. (a) No person in the State of California shall, on the basis of
race, national origin, ethnic group identification, religion, age, sex, sexual
orientation, color, or disability, be unlawfully denied full and equal access
to the benefits of, or be unlawfully subjected to discrimination under, any
program or activity that is conducted, operated, or administered by the
state or by any state agency, is funded directly by the state, or receives any
financial assistance from the state.

As CAP in California is partially funded by the state, it would seem to appy to CA Wing.

If such was the case, the CA National Guard would have to allow openly gay people into the services. They do not. The Federal Gov't is not subject to state laws. In fact, it is specifically exempt from them. CAP is a federal government agency that happens to have a non-profit corp structure.

[Short Field]

Personally, I think it is a shame that WE have to associate with those  Fill-in whichever group you are can't stand in our CAP organizations.  There should be a law against it!!!!

[RiverAux]

You might want to re-think your broad statement there.  Please provide the legal citation saying CAP is exempt from state laws.   I guess that means that we register our vehicles and planes in accordance with state law because we just feel like it.    

Keep in mind that we recently revised our cadet protection regulations to reflect the need to follow state laws because some members apparently thought like you.  

[FW]

CAP is a federal government agency that happens to have a non-profit corp structure.

Sorry, George.  CAP is a federally chartered 501c3 Non Profit educational benevilent corporation set up on a military model.  We are absolutly NOT a federal agency and we must follow all federal, state and local laws.  CAP hires employees down to the wing level and must follow all employment rules and statutes.  Our non discrimination policy holds for volunteers as well as paid employees.  We don't make any exceptions.

[ColonelJack]

I'm a little lost.

I still don't understand why a person's sexual orientation would have any application whatsoever to duties within Civil Air Patrol.

And except for one hypothetical scenario (which I agree could happen but hey -- if the people involved do their jobs professionally it's still not an issue) and some apparent bigotry and/or small-mindedness being shown on the part of some people, I have not received a real answer to my question.

What does it matter?  Why is it an issue?  Why is this even being discussed?

And by the way ... anyone who believes sexual orientation is a "lifestyle choice" needs to review the latest journals of medical and psychological folks.  Research shows that -- no matter what some may wish to believe -- it's no more a choice than the color of one's skin or the shape of one's ears.

Your mileage, of course, may vary.

Jack