New to CAP - Question About Rank

Started by Twolf, November 19, 2005, 09:06:11 PM

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Twolf

Hello All,
   I am a soldier in the Minnesota Army National Guard and was looking into getting involved with some sort of youth organization. I looked into many organizations and almost choose the Boy Scouts until I found the Civil Air Patrol. I really didn't know anything about CAP so I started out just showing up as much as I could because my job keeps me quite busy. A year later I realized that I had never missed a meeting and had really come to love the program and greatly enjoy my time with the kids. Last month I paid my $72 and am now officially a member of the Civil Air Patrol. I have many questions about CAP (like why, when doing an open ranks, the CAP moves the entire formation forward causing the commander to have to move), but my biggest question deals with rank.
   The position my Sq wants me to take is basically in charge of operations for our sq. Figuring out training schedules and fun, exciting things for the cadets to do and stuff like that. The senior member that had this position before me was a 1LT - so logic would tell me that I should go into the officer corps. But the thing is that I don't WANT to be an officer. I'm an NCO - Trainer of Soldiers and Maker of Men. I'm the type of person that wants to be down in the dirt right along side of my men, not behind a desk blindly making policies and plans. Secondly, I find it almost offensive for me to be an officer. I haven't earned that right so it would seem fake to me. So which rank should I go with? Should I stay in the NCO Corps or should I become a 2LT? What are the differences in the CAP?
   In addition to my responsibilities at my sq, I'd like to get involved in Wing activities. BCOC, EPS, and all that fun stuff. Will my status as an NCO prevent me from getting involved? Will it affect what I will be able to do?
   Another thing of concern is the issue of respect. Will the cadets respect me any less as an NCO vs an officer? I know the cadets in my sq greatly respect me because...well... I'm me and they know me. But will the cadets at a wing events respect me the same? I feel as though the CAP puts so much on being an officer that they ignore the NCO corps. It feels like it's looked down upon, being an NCO. I myself respect a grizzly old E-7 MUCH more than I will ever respect a 2LT, but I don't get that same feeling in the CAP.
   As you can imagine, I have many more questions about CAP, which I will continue to ask in this forum. Thank you for your time and I greatly anticipate your responses.
[RANK] Smith
Grand Rapids "Iron Rangers" MN-010

&

SGT Smith
Minnesota Army National Guard
Recruiting & Retention NCO

thefischNX01

#1
CAPR 35-5 allows for the appointment of CAP NCO's based on their prior experience. 

Quote from: CAPR 35-5

Section F: Non-Commissioned Officer Grades

27. General. This Section perscribes the requirements and procedures for for appointment to CAP noncommissioned officer (NCO) grades

28. Elegibility requirements

a. Only those CAP members who are military or ex-military NCOs and do not wish to be considered for CAP officer grades may be appointed to a CAP NCO grade under the provisions in this section.  The CAP grade granted will be equivalent to the grade held in the active duty military, Reserve, or National Guard. 

b. The member must also have completed Level 1 and CPPT of the Senior Member Professional Development Program

29. Procedures.  Members who meet the eligibility requirement outlined above may assume a CAP NCO grade upon presentation of documentation to the unit commander (a copy of DD form 214 Military Identification Card, or promotion order showing the grade requested is considered sufficient).  The CAPF 2 will be annotated to reflect the NCO grade authorized and forward this form to National Headquarters for recording.  The member is authorized to wear the grade on the CAP uniform as soon as verification of the military NCO grade is recieved. 

Although in my one year of service I have come across only one CAP senior Member NCO, I did not have any less respect for him than for the other Seniors who held officer grades, and neither did the Cadets.  Considering your military status, I highly doubt other cadets would look down upon you for having stripes instead of bars.  In my opinion, you should just go with the stripes if only because you feel more comfortable in them. The one thing I've seen in CAP is that jobs are not rank specific, in my current squadron, a senior member without rank is the Deputy Commander, so rank has little to do with assignments, it's based mostly on qualifications. 

Hope this helps
Capt. Colin Fischer, CAP
Deputy Commander for Cadets
Easton Composite Sqdn
Maryland Wing
http://whats-a-flight-officer.blogspot.com/

MIKE

#2
Quote from: Twolf on November 19, 2005, 09:06:11 PMWill my status as an NCO prevent me from getting involved? Will it affect what I will be able to do?

I was thinking that being a SSgt (CAP equivalent NCO grade) would restrict you from command of a unit... Though I am still looking on that, and may cause issues with some Senior Member Professional Development opportunities which require certain officer grade as a prerequisite.  Still checking the regs on this.
   
Quote from: Twolf on November 19, 2005, 09:06:11 PMAnother thing of concern is the issue of respect. Will the cadets respect me any less as an NCO vs an officer? I know the cadets in my sq greatly respect me because...well... I'm me and they know me. But will the cadets at a wing events respect me the same? I feel as though the CAP puts so much on being an officer that they ignore the NCO corps. It feels like it's looked down upon, being an NCO. I myself respect a grizzly old E-7 MUCH more than I will ever respect a 2LT, but I don't get that same feeling in the CAP.

SM NCOs are rare, but I'd say that they are for the most part respected since you have to have BTDT to qualify for the grade whereas any high school graduate who is at least 21 can be a CAP 2d Lt.

Quote from: Twolf on November 19, 2005, 09:06:11 PMAs you can imagine, I have many more questions about CAP, which I will continue to ask in this forum. Thank you for your time and I greatly anticipate your responses.

Ask away sergeant.
Mike Johnston

Chris Jacobs

As a cadet and a cadet that has seen a few SM NCO's i can say i respect them the same if not more than any other SM.  personally when i see a SM that has strips all the way up his sleeve i know i am working with some one that knows what they are doing.  In Oregon our Cadet programs director is a Chief Master Sergent and i hold the up most respect for him.  he knows what he is doing and i really like having him around.  i cant answer all the questions about how it will affect you as a senior member but i can tell you that most CAP cadets will love a senior member that has their same rank as them.

I also know plenty of regular Sergent's in the military that are captins or what ever in the CAP.  i don't know if they feel funny about it or not but most of the time they are also highly respected because the cadets will find out that Captin so and so did two tours in Vietnam, or that Major so and so was a master Sargent in the air force.  i think that either way you chose the cadets will respect you and more than likely will come to you for a lot of advice.
C/1st Lt Chris Jacobs
Columbia Comp. Squadron

Camas

#4
Sgt Smith - you are asking some great questions and I salute you for that.  May I share my experience when I first joined - and I'm no CAP veteran, believe me!

  When I first joined my former squadron I met a delightful lady who volunteered the fact that she was a major and she would introduce me to the squadron commander; a captain.  Well, with my military background, my question was, "If you're a major and he's a captain, how come you're not the commander?"  As Mr. Fischer has mentioned, rank and assignments can differ.

  Lt Johnston brings up another point about participating in professional development opportunities as an NCO; yes, there are some restrictions on taking some of the AFIADL courses such as Squadron Officer School.  Please refer to CAPR 50-17 Chapter 8; you'll find full particulars there.

  C/2d Lt Jacobs mentioned that here in ORWG our Director of Cadet Programs is, in fact, a Chief Master Sergeant.  This gentleman is a former command sergeant major from the Army and, at 6'6", he's a non-com all the way.  Just a great asset to our wing.  I'm privileged to know and work with him.  We actually have two NCO's on our staff, a senior master sergeant who also assists in cadet programs.  Being an NCO can be a great asset to cadets as they'll have the opportunity to see someone like you who does it "for real" in the military service.

  You will also find that the vast majority of CAP officers have never seen military service so you've got some exposure to the military environment that they lack.  Many, of course, are former cadets so they can be a great resource.

  You also had some concerns about drill.  I'm not a "drill" expert (it's been 35 years since I was in the service) however I can tell you that Army and Air Force drill are different.  Please be sure to check with some knowledgable people in your squadron; they can help you in this endeavor.


whatevah

Well, first off...  CAP grade means nothing.  The only grades that mean anything at all are the NCO grades, which are only given to present/former members of the US Armed Forces, and grades Col and above which are for current/former wing, region, and national commanders of CAP.  Officer grade in CAP is just to show how much training you've had (and to get 1st Lt, it doesn't take much at all, Capt is pretty easy, too, just the AFIADL-13 course).  You could have a 1st Lt as a squadron commander, with a Lt Col under him as an Ops officer, something you'll never see in the real military.

Personally, I give more respect to NCOs in CAP than I ever will to a CAP officer (unless I know that they earned their grade through the military).  But, I've been in CAP for 7 years and know how it works. Average senior members probably won't catch on for a year or two.

Being an NCO in CAP won't restrict you from attending any CAP activities.
Jerry Horn
CAPTalk Co-Admin

Eclipse

Ah, yes - one of my favorites - "Grade means nothing..." and "Capt is easy", from someone w/ 7 years in and still wearing a single bar.  Wait, let me guess, you've been too busy doing "real" CAP work to take ECI 13 and do some staff work for the tech rating. 

whatevah.

To the good Sgt.

First, cadets especially, will respect you for your knowledge, bearing and professionalism, regardless of your grade.

Second, if you really disdain the role of an officer that much, I would say keep your stripes but turn down the Ops gig.

"...I'm the type of person that wants to be down in the dirt right along side of my men, not behind a desk blindly making policies and plans..."

Operations is not a field-duty position.  Your job would be to spend time "behind a desk making policies and plans" (hopefully not blindly).

That is the difference between officers and NCO's, officers plan and direct, NCO's execute.  One problem we have in CAP is too many Sgt's who want to be officers,
but cannot think strategically or big picture.

An outstanding ground search asset may not have what it takes to create and run a Wing level ES plan.

Officers point, NCO's shoot.  They are both valuable, and one is useless w/o the other.
If you prefer being an operational asset, stick with that - take a role that has you being a shooter, not a pointer.

Practically speaking, the blue stripes look silly on the BDU's, and you may well have issues down the road with professional development, though I'm sure that's negotiable).  You will have no progression track though, and your CAP grade will never change unless you are promoted in your Guard service.  I know several active CAP members who kept their stripes, and then were sorry later. Back-dating aside, if you choose in 5 years to go officer "just because", you'll start as a 2Lt.

Also, courtesies will require you salute every officer in CAP, even after you've had considerable experience - since there are no NCO ranks in CAP, this can get annoying after a while when you have the most experience in your unit and have to salute a
butter-bar newb.  It sounds like you are great w/ Cadets, so you know how important
adherence to proper courtesies is around them.

Also, as a Senior, you out-rank cadets and they should render you salutes - which will be bizarre for you if you stay in NCO mode all the time.  In fact, I'm not sure how
you'd handle this - especially if you rise to a command position.

Take this as a different organization, and as a challenge to try new things.  You'll learn a different kind of leadership.  In a lot of cases, officers have to lead people that they have nothing in common with , and who have no confidence in them.  This can be much harder than running with your buddies who have all seen your abilities in action.

For the most part, CAP members work together on a professional level, and grade doesn't play much part, but every once in a while you have to lean on that shiny insignia to get things done, and that's what they are there for.

"That Others May Zoom"

whatevah

Quote from: Eclipse on November 21, 2005, 09:12:55 AM
Ah, yes - one of my favorites - "Grade means nothing..." and "Capt is easy", from someone w/ 7 years in and still wearing a single bar.  Wait, let me guess, you've been too busy doing "real" CAP work to take ECI 13 and do some staff work for the tech rating. 

whatevah.
if rank meant something, and wing HQ didn't mess up my paperwork, I'd already be a Captain.  I'm only 21, and I've got the AFIADL 13 (change from ECI a couple years ago) textbook 50 feet from me.  Yes, I'm a former cadet, switched over to senior at age 19, but my promotion paperwork was delayed/lost by the wing professional development officer for a year (when I was on wing staff, guy never came around and I didn't care), until I switched back to a unit (as unit commander) and did my own paperwork.

A friend of mine has been a 1st Lt for 10 years.  Is he stupid, worthless, etc?  Nope.  Just doesn't care about grade or promotions. He could be a Major if he felt like it.

Your soundbyte "officers plan and direct, NCO's execute" is cute, but wrong for CAP as the unit commanders point, and everybody else executes.  Like I said before, that unit commander could be a 1st Lt or Capt, telling multiple Lt Cols what to do.

If he decided to switch over to CAP officer ranks, he may be able to be promoted up to Capt or Maj based upon his education or profession. And, nothing prevents him from taking the SLS, CLC, etc courses and working on a specialty track or two, so the Time in Grade would be the only thing holding him back, which isn't very long.

The blue/white stripes look nice to some, silly to others, it's just a matter of personal taste.
Jerry Horn
CAPTalk Co-Admin

MIKE

#8
Quote from: Eclipse on November 21, 2005, 09:12:55 AM
Also, as a Senior, you out-rank cadets and they should render you salutes - which will be bizarre for you if you stay in NCO mode all the time.  In fact, I'm not sure how you'd handle this - especially if you rise to a command position.

Quote from: CAPP 151b. Saluting. It is a courtesy exchanged between members of
the Civil Air Patrol when in military-style uniform as both a
greeting and a symbol of mutual respect.  As such, it is never
inappropriate to salute another individual.
The basic rules
regarding saluting for CAP members are: ...
(2) You salute the President of the United States, all Medal of Honor recipients, and commissioned officers and
warrant officers
of the Armed Forces who are senior in rank to
you.
(3) You do not salute when indoors unless you are
formally reporting to an officer senior in rank to you.

Emphasis added.

If he serves as an NCO or even as a Senior Member without grade, it is not required that he be saluted since he would not be an officer by definition.
Mike Johnston

flyguy06

Hey Twold. I amalso in the Army National Guard. (currently deployed in Iraq waitng vigurously for the 34thID) I have been working with CAP for many many years. I was a cadet in the 80's and am currrntly a Senior member. I will try to answer your questions.

First, about open ranks march. Remember, CAP models the AIer Force. Air Force D+C is a little different than Army D+C. If you notice in USAF D+C when they do a column movememnt they pick up the half step until the leader says forward march. We dont do that inthe Army. SO,you just have to realize Drill is different. Its very different inthe USMC.

As to the second question. Again you are trying to equated CAP to the Army. DOnt do that. It doesnt matter if you are an officer or an NCO. The pay is the same and you can be just as involved with training cadets as anyone eles. We in CAP hold rank more so to as a reward to members who have done well. I have only known one person that held NCO rank. He was a retired USMC Gunnery Sergeant. Eventually he became a 2LT. It makes no difference in CAP. Its not likethe army where NCO's strictly train and officers do paperwork. We all have a piece inthe pie. And remember the whole purpose of the cadet program is to train future CAP senior members. Its like ROTC.

Good luck and I wish you well and I am glad you decided to stay. We need more Army folks to help square CAP away. Hooah

Pylon

One other thing to consider is that if you choose to take NCO grade, your NCO grade will not change unless your Armed Forces rank changes.

You can take all the professional development courses and complete the entire SM program up to Level V, but you'll stay at the same grade in CAP: whatever NCO grade you hold or held last in the military.  You will not be able to promote in CAP.

The only thing I see the NCO thing holding you back from are certain activities that specify a certain SM officer grade to attend, such as National Staff College which requires the grade of Major to attend (a requirement which even the National Commander can't waive for a SM, according to the regs).

You are a professional NCO, but realize that there is no real NCO corps in Civil Air Patrol.  You won't have NCO colleages at your unit, no first sergeant, no chief.  You'll be reporting to officers, and whether required to or not, you'll be getting salutes from cadets who don't know what you are.

CAP has cadets, who are of both NCO and Officer grades, but the cadets promote next to Second Lieutenant after they've reached Chief Master Sergeant -- a different concept than the military as well.  As for the Senior Members, I've only met one NCO (a retired USAF SMSgt), who eventually converted over to the officer grade he had earned through his CAP professional development and became a CAP Lieutenant Colonel and has stayed that since.

Keep in mind, that your choice to go NCO or officer is not a permanant one.  You can choose to go the officer route, decide you want to be a CAP NCO, and then convert back to your earned officer grade again at any time with the drop of a CAPF 2. 

In either case, whatever you decide, be sure to pursue avidly your CAP professional development.  If you decide to be an NCO, you may find no motivation to do so because you cannot promote, but the professional development courses, specialty track ratings, etc. will qualify you for increased responsibility and you will learn a lot from the courses.  Especially coming from a different military culture, CAP can often be confusing.  Courses like the Level I orientation course and SLS (Squadron Leadership School) will be things you'll want to do very early on -- you'll find it a huge help.  :)

Best of luck, whatever your decision is.
Michael F. Kieloch, Maj, CAP

Pylon

Quote from: Eclipse on November 21, 2005, 09:12:55 AM
Ah, yes - one of my favorites - "Grade means nothing..." and "Capt is easy", from someone w/ 7 years in and still wearing a single bar.  Wait, let me guess, you've been too busy doing "real" CAP work to take ECI 13 and do some staff work for the tech rating. 

whatevah.

Actually, I've been in CAP for 9 years and I still have a single bar, too.  Like Jerry, I was also a cadet for a number of years and only became a SM two years ago.  I qualify for Captain, earned my COP and have my time in grade for Capt, but will not request the promotion. 

Captain is a very easy grade to attain.  If you start out as a Senior Member without grade, the minimum time in grade you'd have to sit and wait for Captain is 3 years through the traditional promotion method.  In three years, it should be real easy to find time to watch two videos (Level I), sit through a weekend lecture series (SLS), earn a simple tech-rating in anything, and take a self-paced correspondence test (AFIADL-13).  That's three years you'll have to do that.  Some people, schedule depending, could knock that out in their first 6-months and simply wait out their promotions.

Oh, and for the record, "doing real CAP work" like being a unit Commander does make it too hard to advance.  One cannot progress in other specialty tracks when assigned to the Commander position since the false "Command" specialty track has no ratings or progression built-in - therefore, those assigned to the Command specialty track are stuck at a hiatus for professional development because NHQ hasn't seen fit to put any material behind the Command track, which they insist isn't even a specialty.

;)
Michael F. Kieloch, Maj, CAP

JaL5597

Quote from: Eclipse on November 21, 2005, 09:12:55 AM
Ah, yes - one of my favorites - "Grade means nothing..." and "Capt is easy", from someone w/ 7 years in and still wearing a single bar.  Wait, let me guess, you've been too busy doing "real" CAP work to take ECI 13 and do some staff work for the tech rating. 

whatevah.

Been a Senior member for 8 years and wearing a gold bar. 

Your right I did spend alot of time doing "Real CAP Work" and not worrying about my professional development. 

I have served as a Squadron Communications Officer, Public Affairs Officer, Leadership Officer, and was Acting Deputy Commander for Cadets.  I currently serve as Wing Historian and Assistant Director of Cadet Programs.

When I pass the test for AFIADL 13 I will have all the requirements for my COP completed.  It doesn't mean I will be seeing railroad tracks anytime soon.

My being a 2d Lt doesn't prevent me from doing my jobs.  When I am on CAP business they see me as the whatever I represent at the time.  If they hold a CAP grade that requires a "Sir" or "Ma'am" and a salute I do it. 

WICAPMOM

I am guilty of the "to - busy" excuse as well.  :-[  I was even guilty of it as a cadet.

I was a cadet for 4 1/2 years and I have been a SM for 14 years.

I was a cadet officer but I only made it to C/1Lt.  Had I planned things out I would have had enough time to make C/Col.  Plus at the time I was a cadet there were only 13 achievements.

As a senior the "butter bar" was almost instantaneous.  With the time I have been, in I should have been an Lt Col already.  The only requirement I yet to meet is the staff college or equivalent I am not planning on it any time soon.

To be honest I would not be this far, except for the fact that my commander kept on me.

I do not judge people by the rank, although I do respect he rank.
Julie Anne
Major, CAP ~ Commander
Milwaukee Comp Sqdn 5 (WI-061)

Twolf

Flyguy06,
     When my brother gets there will you tell him "hi" for me? He's the NCOIC of the brigade TOC for the 1/34th BCT. I personally know just about every one of the 3,000 Guardsmen that are going to replace you - kind of a small world (guard) huh? (By the way, the column half-step thing drives me CRAZY! I've been marching the cadets and been wondering "Why the HECK are we doing a half-step?!...... OH YEAH!")

To everyone else,
     Thank you for your responses and information. I'm actually still a little confused though. I guess I just don't understand how you can not have an NCO corps. Maybe if I go to SLS or some corporate thingy (it's next month) I'll understand it better.
     So here's another thing that I've been thinking about. My sq made a deal with me that I can wear my service's uniform (Got the fancy new ACUs) when I'm doing things with CAP - that way I don't have to deal with multiple uniforms. Also at wing events it says that current military members can wear their service's uniform if they're on orders to be there - I'm a recruiter so I'm on orders 24/7 so I plan on wearing my service's uniform all the time. So for less confusion I'm thinking the NCO corps might be better.
     In all honesty, I don't really want to be the commander of anything. Being the Operations NCO (officer for the rest of you apparently) I get to be involved in all the training of the cadets. From scheduling to the completion of training. That fits my wants/personality just perfectly. If I can get that job done being an NCO, then great. I'm just worried that people will think "he doesn't know what he's talking about, he's just a Sergeant" or something like that when it comes to planning and training issues. Not so much at my sq, but at wing events.
[RANK] Smith
Grand Rapids "Iron Rangers" MN-010

&

SGT Smith
Minnesota Army National Guard
Recruiting & Retention NCO

Chris Jacobs

I am going to reassure you that no one will look down on you at all for being a Sergent.  if any thing they will look up to you.

for the saluting.  if you are truly uncomfortable about it ask the cadets not to do it for you.  It may not be right in the regs but i don't know if it is wrong either.
C/1st Lt Chris Jacobs
Columbia Comp. Squadron

Westernslope

#16
.

Eclipse

The "I'm a Commander, and don't have time for my own development." Is a great way to find yourself out of a job when your term limit is over with nothing to show for your time but a certificate of appreciation.

As background, I am a unit CC, serve on Group staff, run an encampment, and am active enough in ES to have served in Katrina (HEY, I ROCK! >blech<).  As a leader, I can't take a "do as I say, not as I do attitude".  If professional development and progression is important for my members, it's important for me.  My laurels get no rest.

Twolf - I have an issue with your plan.  If you are a recruiter, you may have found a loophole with regards to your being on orders "24x7", but it sounds like an expedient stretch at best.

My issue is that your authority to participate does not come from the Army National Guard, it comes from the USAF Auxiliary.  The uniforms are not even the same color, and it would be quesionable what value, beyond easing your personal dilemma, it would serve.

DISCLAIMER - I ABSOLUTLEY RESPECT AND APPRECIATE YOUR SERVICE!  Don't miss that in this technical discussion of the regulations.

Anyway, in terms of CAP, you're really going to be out of uniform, which may be a violation of CPPT, especially if your 24-7 interperatation doesn't stick. We have some real issues my way with event commanders who choose on their own to wear their desert camos, or other non-CAP uniform and then wonder why they have insubordination issues and similar problems.

That's why they call it a "uniform" - so we all look the same, and things like hair length, and your clothes don't get in the way of performance and interaction.  Once the uniqueness of the situation wears off, I promise you that some fellow members will wonder if you view CAP as a "second class" organization, and don't have enough respect for it to wear our uniform properly.

There is also the issue of personal liability.  You and your CC may believe that being a recruiter translates into "24x7 orders", but I wonder what CAP legal or the Wing CC would think about that.  If you, or someone else got hurt, or you damaged equipment in the course of CAP activities, you may find that the insurance company or USAF doesn't agree with your interpretation, therefore you are out of uniform, ergo - S-O-L.  Please pay the cashier on the way out.

There is also the issue of CAP insignia - you'll never be able to wear any of it.  Your Army ribbons, CIB, and specialty badges are rewards for hard work done, but meaningless to another CAP member trying to figure out who / what you are in the CAP world.

Also, let's not forget about the restrictions against most active military (and even CAP to an extent) wearing BDU's in public, or anywhere not on duty.  In fact your Guard CC may not allowyou to wear the uniform in this way (state's vary).
I know when O'Hare was open, my buddy used to tell me that his Reserve CC activley discouraged the special license plates and wearing uniforms in public because it exposed their people to Force Protection risks - and that was way befor 9/11.

Unless you're planning on doing outdoor activities in your service dress, that's a problem as well.  As a soldier, your experience in field activities could be invaluable to cadets an seniors learning to be Ground team personnel, but you can't run an FTX in your service dress, a) it's against regs, b) it will get expensive, c) you'd look silly with an LBV over your dress blouse.

At a minimum I would request a letter from the MN Wing CC & your Guard post CC authorizing your plan. 

If the choice is going to be Army Green, or USAF blue w/ your stripes, go with the blue.  This is the USAF Aux, not the Guard.

"That Others May Zoom"

flyguy06

Hey Twolf,

Yes, it is a small Guard world. I work in my Battalion's TOC and I interact withthe Brigade TOC constantly, so when they get here, I probably will run into him during the right seat/left seat rides. PM me and lets talk about some things.


Again, about CAP, I will tell youit doesnt matter what your rank is. You canbe just as active with cadets if youae an officer or an NCO. I am a Capt and I march cadets all the time. To be honest, the cadet programis supposed to run itself. The cadets are suposed to do the marching of each other not the senior members. The cadets are supposed to come up with the training schedule. Not the Senior member. The cadet program is a leadership program. We have to let the cadets do the work to develop their leadership skills. We are just there to assist. The reason I am so involved is because my unit is fairly young and we dont have many cadets. But believe me, as soon as my cadets get NCO rank, they will be doing all the formations and drilling and that. Yes, I do wear my Army Dress blues at functions. I usually stand out so I think Iam going to get away from that. Iwould not recommend you wear your army uniform at meetings though. Anyone else on here can correct me if I am wrong but I believe the regs say in order to interact with cadets, the SM MUST be in a CAP uniform or corporate attire.

I know, I had to suck it up and put onthe blues. I wear BDU's as much as possible. (I hate the ACU's anyway) It sets the proper example to show the cadets the proper way to wear the CAP uniform if you have it on yourself. Well, thats what I think. Give me a PM. Later.


Twolf

Quote from: Eclipse on November 22, 2005, 07:07:14 PM
Twolf - I have an issue with your plan.  If you are a recruiter, you may have found a loophole with regards to your being on orders "24x7", but it sounds like an expedient stretch at best.
I assure you I am on orders 24/7 - my command reminds me of that every day!
Quote
DISCLAIMER - I ABSOLUTLEY RESPECT AND APPRECIATE YOUR SERVICE!  Don't miss that in this technical discussion of the regulations.
Thank You
Quote
Anyway, in terms of CAP, you're really going to be out of uniform, which may be a violation of CPPT, especially if your 24-7 interperatation doesn't stick.
If need be, I can have orders that directly say to support the CAP
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We have some real issues my way with event commanders who choose on their own to wear their desert camos, or other non-CAP uniform and then wonder why they have insubordination issues and similar problems.
Like I said before, I've been involved for over a year, just recently became a member. So far it has never been a problem - it usually turns into a topic of conversation for people visiting on meeting nights. I obviously have never participated in wing events before - but I have been at the same post as cadets at wing encampments and stuff twice. The first time I was a Drill Sergeant and specifically told my cadets to stay far away from me if they saw me. One of them ran into me (litterally) in the PX, looked at me and ran the other way. The second time I just happened to be down there while my unit was down there and stopped in to see how things were going and to see if I could observe training. I didn't get to do much with them, just ask my cadets how things were going and watch them do some D&C - but the cadets that weren't in my sq were very respectful now that I think about it. I guess I don't see why there would be any insubordination issues.
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I promise you that some fellow members will wonder if you view CAP as a "second class" organization, and don't have enough respect for it to wear our uniform properly.
I'm going to be open, honest and direct here. Do I respect CAP as an organization? Yes - otherwise I wouldn't join it. Do I hold my military organization in a higher light? Absolutely. I love the Guard, I have dedicated my life to service in it. The only thing more important to me is my Family. It's not that I view CAP as a "second class" organization - but in all reality it makes itself out to be "second class". I can't find it right now, but in the D&C Manual about saluting, it says that CAP members will salute officers (and NCOs I think) in Military uniform, reguardless of service. HOWEVER is says right in the same paragraph that Military Service Members do not have to salute back! The CAP puts itself down a rung or two on the ladder because THEY (by regulation) put Military Service on a pedistool(sp?)
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Also, let's not forget about the restrictions against most active military (and even CAP to an extent) wearing BDU's in public, or anywhere not on duty.  In fact your Guard CC may not allowyou to wear the uniform in this way (state's vary).
As a recruiter it's my duty to wear my uniform everywhere I go (except the bar). I take pride in it. I am authorized to wear "alternate uniforms" (read civies) but I wear my ACUs every day because I am proud of my service to my country and proud to be a member of the National Guard.
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There is also the issue of personal liability.  You and your CC may believe that being a recruiter translates into "24x7 orders", but I wonder what CAP legal or the Wing CC would think about that. 
If it were a problem, why would wing put out a policy stating that service members can wear their service's uniform as long as they're on orders.
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There is also the issue of CAP insignia - you'll never be able to wear any of it.  Your Army ribbons, CIB, and specialty badges are rewards for hard work done, but meaningless to another CAP member trying to figure out who / what you are in the CAP world.
My understanding is that I could wear any of my military ribbons on my CAP uniform. Wouldn't they be just as confused, if not more then?
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Unless you're planning on doing outdoor activities in your service dress, that's a problem as well.  As a soldier, your experience in field activities could be invaluable to cadets an seniors learning to be Ground team personnel, but you can't run an FTX in your service dress, a) it's against regs, b) it will get expensive, c) you'd look silly with an LBV over your dress blouse.
I wear ACUs every day - I only break out the Class Bs (no jacket) on laundry days or says when I feel like dressing up. Class As are hardly EVER worn because I've got the Army Dress Blues! That uniform ROCKS! (And it's expansive!)
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At a minimum I would request a letter from the MN Wing CC & your Guard post CC authorizing your plan. 
Won't be a problem.
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If the choice is going to be Army Green, or USAF blue w/ your stripes, go with the blue.  This is the USAF Aux, not the Guard.
Trust me, I will have a set or two of CAP uniforms (dress and BDU), for instances when I cannot wear my ACUs. But I will wear my ACUs every chance I get. It's an option for me and I will take advantage of it, mostly as a personal preference.

Quote from: flyguy06 on November 22, 2005, 09:42:09 PM
The reason I am so involved is because my unit is fairly young and we dont have many cadets.
My sq is the same way.
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Yes, I do wear my Army Dress blues at functions. I usually stand out so I think Iam going to get away from that. Iwould not recommend you wear your army uniform at meetings though. Anyone else on here can correct me if I am wrong but I believe the regs say in order to interact with cadets, the SM MUST be in a CAP uniform or corporate attire.
In my wing they wanted to make sure that I went through the training to make sure I knew not to be a chimo before I joined. My DCC was the one who brought up wearing ACUs initially after I joined.
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I know, I had to suck it up and put onthe blues. I wear BDU's as much as possible. (I hate the ACU's anyway) It sets the proper example to show the cadets the proper way to wear the CAP uniform if you have it on yourself.
My sq wears BDUs every week, except one. If they're in BDUs, I'm in ACUs. If they're in dress uniform, I'm in dress uniform (unless work prevents me from doing so in both cases. I do wear "alternate uniforms" sometimes.) I LOVE the ACUs. MUCH more confertable than the BDU or DCU.

This next comment may offend some people, or it may not. We'll see. The CAP is not a recruiting tool for the USAF. It is not a recruiting tool for anything. But we've all admitted that a lot of cadets will go off and join a service when they graduate high school. What is the harm in letting them know that there are other things out there? That's basically doing by wearing the ACUs. I know you're all saying "Wait... this guy's a RECRUITER and he's in CAP! GET HIM OUT HE'S ONLY THERE TO GET MORE CANNON FODDER!" I will assure you that is not the case. I'll admit that was my initial interest in CAP - but that is the last thing on my mind. I love interacting with the kids - watching them learn and grow as airmen and as young adults. We've got some kids that are in our sq who just need a good rolemodel in their lives - I fill that void. I'm making a difference in these kids lives and that makes me feel good. That's my interest in CAP. If a kid asks about military service - I'll answer him honestly and to the best of my abilities. But I could care less if any CAP kids join or not. If they are going to join I want them to know that there is more out there... (waiting patiently for the backlash....)
[RANK] Smith
Grand Rapids "Iron Rangers" MN-010

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SGT Smith
Minnesota Army National Guard
Recruiting & Retention NCO