Level V

[RiverAux]

Okay, here are the requirements to complete Level V and to get the Gill Robb Wilson Award:
1.  Completion of level IV
2.  Total 3 years in command or staff assignment
3.  National Staff College or a military education equivalent (a Senior NCO Academy, or a Command and Staff College, or a War College.
4.  Serve as a staff member at a Region Staff College/National Staff College or be a SLS/CLC Director
5.  Conduct a Level 1 Orientation Course

Is it just me or does this last requirement stick out like a sore thumb?  Conducting a Level 1 course is what a local squadron admin officer often does and surely doesn't come close to representing anything really difficult enough to be associated with this award.

Incidentally, this may be the only senior member award where you are encouraged to have it presented by a high ranking AF officer or important local official.  Usually we bring "outsiders" on board to give cadet officer awards. 

So, the question is, do you think this "Activity" requirement is appropriate and if not, what should replace it?  Also, any comments about the other requirements and/or possible replacements for them would be appropriate.  However, no talk about ranks based on PD levels is requested. 

[Camas]

Conduct a Level 1 Orientation Course Is it just me or does this last requirement stick out like a sore thumb?  Conducting a Level 1 course is what a local squadron admin officer often does and surely doesn't come close to representing anything really difficult enough to be associated with this award.

    I'm sure many of our forum members will recall that the old Level One Course, up to a couple of years ago, was a classroom environment so that this requirement was, perhaps, intended for Level V candidates to assist new members in this endeavor.  In the short time I've been in CAP (seven years) I don't remember that admin officers had much to do with this training, indeed, it was more likely that professional development officers at the unit level were assigned this responsibility. 
    Do I have a suggestion on this matter?  Not really other than perhaps to have the requirement reworded to the effect of having Level V candidates take part in the counseling of new members in completing Foundations, CPPT and OPSEC. I'm not sure what more one could add. It's certainly no secret that the CAPP 204 is woefully out of date in any case.

[lordmonar]

I agree that it was probably there to help force more Level I courses to be taught.  But now that they are conducted by the PDO/commander there is not much need for it.  It probably could be dropped.

[O-Rex]

Conducting a Level 1 was the last requirement I completed for my level V, and I thought it brought my PD full-circle.

For a new member, what better source for info and (in theory) example than someone who is about to reach the capstone of the senior program?

Or maybe I'm just being overly sentimental. . .  :angel:

[RiverAux]

Level 1 for at least the last 10 years consisted primarily of sitting people down in front of a VCR for a few hours and even now isn't all that much.  Its not what anyone in their right mind would consider a "course".   

[O-Rex]

Level 1 for at least the last 10 years consisted primarily of sitting people down in front of a VCR for a few hours and even now isn't all that much.  Its not what anyone in their right mind would consider a "course".   

Yeah, that's why I added a few embellishments, mostly Q & A, and "how to really navigato your way through your first months in your unit."

[RiverAux]

Level 1 is an important introductory course, but it is so out of whack with all the other Level 5 requirements.  Heck, one of the other requirements can be met by Air War College for petes sake, whereas just about anyone in CAP should be able to run a level 1 course if they've been in a few years.  Its just too easy.  Its like making someone do a Red Cross CPR course before receiving their medical degree.

[IceNine]

It is among the MANY outdated written documents in this organization... But as we all know, such a small piece of minutia neither warrants nor requires any real amount of attention.

And I don't feel the need to explain the process that it takes even to remove one line for a CAP doc

[RiverAux]

Oh, I don't know.  I think the criteria for the most important and prestigious award in our senior member program ranks slightly higher than minutia.  Granted, its not as critical as whether or not our BDU hats are "ranger rolled" or not, but really, what is?

[IceNine]

Its one line to check a box, the other tasks are no small feat.  So you have to fulfill task that is complete B/S and when all is said and done you have showed that you can follow written instructions fully and with a fair amount of integrity.

The effort that it takes to replace this line in a reg is not worth the time.

Now add in the laundry list of other necessary changes and you may have a leg to stand on.

[Eclipse]

Level 1 for at least the last 10 years consisted primarily of sitting people down in front of a VCR for a few hours and even now isn't all that much.  Its not what anyone in their right mind would consider a "course".   

It is what you make it - mine take about 2 hours, not including the online work.

[Gunner C]

I would leave it in for this reason:  senior, most trained officers should be the ones to mentor the nubes.  If we don't do it, then who will?  The drill here is obviously not to show that you can give a class, or for that matter conduct a course (that's covered elsewhere). Give something back. If anything, I'd require an officer to complete 2 or 3 of them.

[drift] Heck, the hardest part for me to complete was just finding a CLC that would fit my schedule.  I had finished everything else for the GRW about two years earlier - I completed levels 3, 4, & 5 on the same day. [/drift]

GC

[RiverAux]

Nice in theory, but it would need to be a requirement much earlier in the PD program to be of any use.  I think there have only been a few thousand people to ever get this award in CAP which means that there might only have been 1 or 2 in each squadron in their entire history. 

[dwb]

Here's the way I always thought of this (note, this opinion was formed when Level I was still entirely an in-person course).

Requiring someone who is working on Level V to conduct a Level I orientation course accomplishes two things:

1. It puts an experienced, probably field grade, CAP officer in charge of training new people.  In theory, this allows the new person to learn from a BTDT, but in addition, they get an example of someone who has completed a lot of CAP professional development.

2. There are probably a lot of officers working on Level V that are at the Wing level or higher, or possibly Group level.  Forcing them to do an orientation course means they need to come back down from their higher echelon exosphere and actually do some hands-on training with a new person who is likely going to participate at a squadron.

So, both the new people receiving the orientation, and the person conducting it, get a new (or long overdue) perspective on things.

Does it work that way all the time?  Doubtful, especially since conducting an orientation is now just the Summary Conversation (which is still very important).  I think the concept has merit, though.

[Al Sayre]

Why would they have to "come back"?  They can just take credit for the many Level 1's  they did over the years as squadron officers...

[dwb]

Why would they have to "come back"?  They can just take credit for the many Level 1's  they did over the years as squadron officers...

Stop raining on my parade...

[FW]

I would leave it in for this reason:  senior, most trained officers should be the ones to mentor the nubes.  If we don't do it, then who will?  The drill here is obviously not to show that you can give a class, or for that matter conduct a course (that's covered elsewhere). Give something back. If anything, I'd require an officer to complete 2 or 3 of them.

Maybe we should change the requirement to serve as a mentor for 6 months (to include giving level 1 courses).?

[Pylon]

Maybe we should change the requirement to serve as a mentor for 6 months (to include giving level 1 courses).?

I think that's a better idea.  It fulfills the intent, I think, of having experienced senior members pass on some of their knowledge and learned experience to new members. 

Now that Level I has shifted from a classroom environment to a mostly home self-study, I think having a SM mentor a new member for 6 months would be a great alternative.

:clap:

[Eclipse]

Now that Level I has shifted from a classroom environment to a mostly home self-study,

I'm going to take exception to that statement, again.  Its not supposed to be.

The online portion is prep for the real discussions with the commander or his designate.  The new level one is more effective because members come in with some general ideas and real questions.

I don't think you're saying this, but I hear all to often how L1 is "online now", and I personally know of commanders who do it that way.

[lordmonar]

I would leave it in for this reason:  senior, most trained officers should be the ones to mentor the nubes.  If we don't do it, then who will?  The drill here is obviously not to show that you can give a class, or for that matter conduct a course (that's covered elsewhere). Give something back. If anything, I'd require an officer to complete 2 or 3 of them.

Maybe we should change the requirement to serve as a mentor for 6 months (to include giving level 1 courses).?

Sure...but maybe add that as a requirement for Level III instead of Level V.....It is kind of a skills miss match.

[Duke Dillio]

I would leave it in for this reason:  senior, most trained officers should be the ones to mentor the nubes.  If we don't do it, then who will?  The drill here is obviously not to show that you can give a class, or for that matter conduct a course (that's covered elsewhere). Give something back. If anything, I'd require an officer to complete 2 or 3 of them.

Maybe we should change the requirement to serve as a mentor for 6 months (to include giving level 1 courses).?

Sure...but maybe add that as a requirement for Level III instead of Level V.....It is kind of a skills miss match.

I'd go with Level III as well.  I really don't understand the requirement for two wing/region/national conferences.  I would think that that would be better suited for Level IV but then again I am just a simple peon.

[davedove]

I would leave it in for this reason:  senior, most trained officers should be the ones to mentor the nubes.  If we don't do it, then who will?  The drill here is obviously not to show that you can give a class, or for that matter conduct a course (that's covered elsewhere). Give something back. If anything, I'd require an officer to complete 2 or 3 of them.

Maybe we should change the requirement to serve as a mentor for 6 months (to include giving level 1 courses).?

Sure...but maybe add that as a requirement for Level III instead of Level V.....It is kind of a skills miss match.

I'd go with Level III as well.  I really don't understand the requirement for two wing/region/national conferences.  I would think that that would be better suited for Level IV but then again I am just a simple peon.

At Level III you are supposed to be learning how the Wing does things.  Since I would bet that most members satisfy the conference requirement with Wing conferences, that would be where you have the opportunity to network with others of your Wing.

The new Level I is probably better suited to about Level III.  I'm sure that the original thought was to have someone direct a Level I course who had already gone through most of the PD program.

[lordmonar]

Dave....I understand why the original intent was...but I am talking right now....we currently have commanders and PDO's doing level I training no matter what their PD Level.  Bringing in a Level IV to conduct the Level I course is like bringing in a Math PhD to teach High School Algabra. 

A Skills Mismatch.

But at the Level II-III range you are still new enough to relate to the new guys but have been around the block enough to know how things work. 

Sargrunt.

I agree with you on that one.  It is the one thing holding me up from Level III.  The last Wing Conference was nice....but I did not really learn anything....I did meet some of the people from other part of the state....that was about the most gratifying/educational part of the whole thing.

I also have a question about the "attendance" standard.  If the conference is say a week long do you have to be there all 7 days or just one day...or just one hour?  "Attend two conferences" is a bit vague.

[Pylon]

Now that Level I has shifted from a classroom environment to a mostly home self-study,

I'm going to take exception to that statement, again.  Its not supposed to be.

The online portion is prep for the real discussions with the commander or his designate.  The new level one is more effective because members come in with some general ideas and real questions.

I don't think you're saying this, but I hear all to often how L1 is "online now", and I personally know of commanders who do it that way.

I agree, and that's not what I meant.  In other words, you don't necessarily have a typical classroom instruction anymore.  It's not a handful of new SM's sitting in a classroom while somebody goes over the powerpoint slides.  New members now view the powerpoint slides on their own (what I meant by mostly home-based self-study), print and answer the quizzes on their own, and then bring in their quizzes for review and participate in discussionin more of a one-on-one fashion with somebody at the unit.

So, it is still a fair amount of self-study if the member is doing it correctly, with their mentor simply providing guidance, answers to questions, review of what they missed/got wrong, and the summary discussion.  OPSEC is completely on their own, and CPPT is also a half-and-half (again, with materials and quizzes designed for self/home study to bring in to the unit).

Either way, a lot of the classroom stuff has been done away with and the format has completely changed.  It's no longer "sit in a classroom for 4 hours, hear me read a powerpoint to you, watch these videos and take these quizzes" to complete Level I.

[Short Field]

Hey - don't change anything until I get done!   

I am closely tracking our next potential member so I can do the Commander's Conversations with them.  I hope they come out of the discussion motivated and with a clear idea on what they need to do to have fun, advance, and be a productive member of CAP.     And not be one of the new members who fail to renew after a year or so because we fail to push help them along.

[FW]

I'm certainly no educator.  However, I do agree that the most senior/experienced members (level 4-5) should be the ones we go to for advice and help. To tell you the truth, I haven't looked at a level 1 since... oh, the CRS just kicked in . 

However, I do know some things about CAP and I know there are many more out there willing to give something back; as well as progress thru the PD program.

Maybe we can add a requirement to contribute to CAPTALK?  :angel:

[flyerthom]

I'm certainly no educator.  However, I do agree that the most senior/experienced members (level 4-5) should be the ones we go to for advice and help. To tell you the truth, I haven't looked at a level 1 since... oh, the CRS just kicked in . 

However, I do know some things about CAP and I know there are many more out there willing to give something back; as well as progress thru the PD program.

Maybe we can add a requirement to contribute to CAPTALK?  :angel:

New requirement for Level V - 1000 posts on captalk!

[lordmonar]

I'm certainly no educator.  However, I do agree that the most senior/experienced members (level 4-5) should be the ones we go to for advice and help. To tell you the truth, I haven't looked at a level 1 since... oh, the CRS just kicked in . 

However, I do know some things about CAP and I know there are many more out there willing to give something back; as well as progress thru the PD program.

Maybe we can add a requirement to contribute to CAPTALK?  :angel:

New requirement for Level V - 1000 posts on captalk!

Well you got about 600 more to go....so lets see those posts!

Look Ma....I'm mentoring!

[CadetProgramGuy]

I don't think you're saying this, but I hear all to often how L1 is "online now", and I personally know of commanders who do it that way.

Not all of Level I is online.  If you have commanders that are using the online method then you have members not getting all the information.

From www.cap.gov/one

Notes for Commanders

There is no pass or fail in this course. However, you are responsible for reviewing your new members' efforts, make any corrections and provide your new members with the guidance needed to succeed.

Use the "Summary Conversation" guide to help you to accomplish this task. The correct answers to the quizzes are noted in this guide. You can download the latest "Summary Conversation" Guide through e-Services. Look in your "Commander's Corner" link. Since this guide contains the quiz answers, please treat the guide in accordance with CAPR 50-4 rules.

This "Summary Conversation" guide will help you know that your new member has put the topics they read into proper perspective. In the process, your new member has an opportunity to ask questions in an informal, no-pressure setting. The training ends with a casual discussion between you and your new member.

Emphasis by myself.

[arajca]

When I've done the summary conversations, it usually takes one to two hours, not including CPPT. Although I have had one cover two meetings due to member questions and my feeling comfortable they understand the material. I have no problem (and have commander support) to spend as long as it takes. Letting the member know this at the beginning is helpful since it shows that you really care about them getting off to a good start.

On my Level V, I just need to direct a SLS/CLC/etc and complete NSC (or equivalent).

[CadetProgramGuy]

All I need for My level 4:

RSC or SOS
Master Rating.

Edited and punished myself

[arajca]

All I need for My level 4:

NSC or SOS
Master Rating.

Actually, RSC is for Level IV. NSC is for Level V.

[CadetProgramGuy]

You're right, thought RSC, said NSC.....

Did that is EMT Class tonight.  CPR Station, Unresponsive, no pulse, no breathing, I said GCS of 15.....

[Gunner C]

I can tell you that Level 5 is worth it.  I didn't complete my Spaatz and always regretted it.  Getting my GRW (age 50) really made up for it.  AAMOF, at the awards ceremony, the person who preceded me was getting his Spaatz.  The same Maj Gen (NG type - State AG) awarded it to me.  I got a standing O from the wing conference.  It was one of those moments that you never forget.  It was nice being recognized at the same level as the award that had slipped through my fingers 32 years earlier.

GC

[Cecil DP]

I can tell you that Level 5 is worth it.  I didn't complete my Spaatz and always regretted it.  Getting my GRW (age 50) really made up for it.  AAMOF, at the awards ceremony, the person who preceded me was getting his Spaatz.  The same Maj Gen (NG type - State AG) awarded it to me.  I got a standing O from the wing conference.  It was one of those moments that you never forget.  It was nice being recognized at the same level as the award that had slipped through my fingers 32 years earlier.

GC

I got mine in 1985, and as you said it was a great feeling to reeive the award. Mine was presented by the NAT/CC BG Cass during the MAWG Conference at theage of 36. l

[ColonelJack]

The only problem I had with getting my Level V as quickly as I did (less than a dozen years from joining) was ... where do I go from here?  I received my GRW in 1993 -- and all I had was my Wing King at the time to present it to me.  No applause, no nothing.  (Sheesh.)  'S okay, though ... I knew it was a major achievement.  I did get a "form" letter from Brig. Gen. Anderson congratulating me on making it, and a handwritten note offering me his personal congratulations, which I thought was pretty neat.

But the question nagged me ... once you hit the Gill Robb Wilson award, what's next?  There should always be one more mountain to climb.  (Not for bling, of course, but to stay active and involved and all that.)

Jack

[dwb]

Serve on the staff, and maybe rise to the director position, for a Region Staff College or the National Staff College.  That would be a logical next step for a Wilson recipient looking to do more work in CAP PD.

There's always SOS, ACSC, and AWC if you don't have those already.

As for myself, I should have a Garber before too long.  Just have to wait for my SOS diploma to arrive in the mail, then submit the CAPF 24.

[Pylon]

As for myself, I should have a Garber before too long.  Just have to wait for my SOS diploma to arrive in the mail, then submit the CAPF 24.

:clap:

[Duke Dillio]

How was SOS?  I just completed Level III.  I was thinking about doing SOS in place of RSC.

[dwb]

I thought it was great.

My biggest caveat is that it takes a lot of time.  I got it done in five months, which is pretty quick.  However, there were times when I would work on it 7 days a week.  Some days, I would do a unit at lunch, then another unit in the evening.  On weekends, I'd do a unit or two while my son napped, then another in the evening.

So many people ask about SOS on here and otherwise, I actually started writing an SOS primer for CAP senior members.  I haven't gotten very far yet, but before I started typing, I scribbled this outline on a scrap of paper:

Introduction
SOS Overview
Benefits/Drawbacks
- This section will answer the question "Is SOS right for me?"
Enrollment Info
Studying/Testing Tips
Conclusion

I need to flesh that out a little more before I get typing too much.

[Duke Dillio]

Sounds good man.  Keep us posted.  Might start a new thread when then comes about.  SOS/RSC is the last thing I need for Level IV.  Then onto the GRW.

[DNall]

As the PD courses are restructured, and new courses (TLC/UCC) are added as possibilities for staff/director check offs, I'm sure we'll get around to fixing up some of the adult program requirements. Obviously that program is need of a serious upgrade. The problem at this point is not so much little details like this, but more of should we massively update/change the reqs as has been done several times over our history.

[Chappie]

The only problem I had with getting my Level V as quickly as I did (less than a dozen years from joining) was ... where do I go from here?  I received my GRW in 1993 -- and all I had was my Wing King at the time to present it to me.  No applause, no nothing.  (Sheesh.)  'S okay, though ... I knew it was a major achievement.  I did get a "form" letter from Brig. Gen. Anderson congratulating me on making it, and a handwritten note offering me his personal congratulations, which I thought was pretty neat.

But the question nagged me ... once you hit the Gill Robb Wilson award, what's next?  There should always be one more mountain to climb.  (Not for bling, of course, but to stay active and involved and all that.)

Jack

What's next???  I love the opportunity to mentor others.  This coming October, I will have the privilege of serving on NSC staff (did two tours as Chaplain - 06', 07 and will be returning as a Seminar Advisor this year).  Looking forward to it....shameless plug here...but if you have not attended NSC, the dates for it are October 25-October 31 at Maxwell AFB, Montgomery AL.  The weather last year was pretty nice...only one day of rain IIRC.

I have also had the opportunity to serve on staffs for cadet activities, Chaplain Service Region Staff College, SLS/CLC, UCC and gave presentations to squadrons, etc.

So there are things to do.

[ColonelJack]

Looking forward to it....shameless plug here...but if you have not attended NSC, the dates for it are October 25-October 31 at Maxwell AFB, Montgomery AL.  The weather last year was pretty nice...only one day of rain IIRC.

Well ... being retired, I probably won't make it to NSC.   

And the weather last year was pretty nice ... but remember, the Southeast is in something of a drought, so we keep hoping for a few days when the weather won't be so nice.

I did the mentoring bit too ... there were three-four years between earning my GRW and deciding to retire.  But when I asked, "What's next?" I was referring to a structured, PD-based program that built on what I'd learned through Levels III - V.  That's what I needed, and there simply wasn't anything.  It contributed to my burnout.

Thank you for the reply, Chappie.  Much appreciated.

Jack

[jimmydeanno]

the Southeast is in something of a drought, so we keep hoping for a few days when the weather won't be so nice...

You can have some of our rain, it has been coming down since yesterday and is expected to continue through tomorrow.  I got up this morning with 8 inches of standing water in my driveway.  But, I guess after we're done using it all and pumping it into our rivers it'll make it's way down to you guys to drink   

^ one of the reasons I don't drink water bottled south of me

[James Shaw]

I plan on attending NSC this year. My "birthday gift" to me. I will have my 41st the day before it starts. It is the last requirement I need for the completion of my Level V.

[Fifinella]

As for myself, I should have a Garber before too long.  Just have to wait for my SOS diploma to arrive in the mail, then submit the CAPF 24.

Congrats!  I'm right behind you - 5 units left.  Will be glad to be done.    Again, congrats. :clap:

[Fifinella]

New requirement for Level V - 1000 posts on captalk!

100 posts???  Guess I'd beter start ranting about uniforms and beating dead horses to get my number up. 

[Pylon]

Guess I'd beter start ranting about uniforms and beating dead horses to get my number up. 

Nooooooooo!   

[Chappie]

I plan on attending NSC this year. My "birthday gift" to me. I will have my 41st the day before it starts. It is the last requirement I need for the completion of my Level V.

That is great...Look forward to seeing you there.  Look me up...you can't miss me...I'll be wearing a blue uniform