Cadet Weapons Qualifications Badge

[skippytim]

Is there such thing? Recently at an activity we shot to qualify for CAP and they said we can get a badge; but I don't know anything about it and I can't find anything either.

[Short Field]

Why would we be qualifing cadets on weapons since they are prohibited on missions?  I can see it be a real fun thing for the cadets (and useful for some depending on where they live).  But needed in CAP?

I fully support gun control - just ignore the fact I buy my ammo in 1,000 round lots.   

[CASH172]

Cadets may wear the NRA Qualification Badges.  Take a look at CAPM 39-1. 

[IceNine]

Did you qualify NRA or Military?

if NRA then obviously you will wear the NRA qual badges.

If you qualified Military then you wear the badge that you qualified for by military standards.  At least that is what I was told WIWAC,  however 39-1 is very vague on military badges and only says wear what you qualify for and provides no guidance on what can, cannot, or whatever can be worn

[CASH172]

I thought military badges could only be earned for CAP wear if you were in the RM. 

[IceNine]

Hang tight working on documentation to support my currently un-founded claims

[Short Field]

Yep, found it.  Jr NRA Marksmanship Badge - earned IAW NRA program.

[Short Field]

CAPM 39-1, 5-4:  Military service ribbons may be worn on the CAP AF-style uniform provided they were awarded in writing by competent military authority.

[IceNine]

You didn't get it all and these few words change the meaning completely

CAPR 39-1 6-7

CAP members may wear only the US military badges authorized for wear on the US Air Force uniform when earned through qualification and awarded by competent authority for service performed in any branch of the Armed Forces of the United States or its allies

emphasis mine

Which means you are correct only badges earned during military service are authorized

So, it looks like the JNRA badges are the only firearms related badges that can be earned without military service

[Short Field]

I agree with you but think the phrase "competent military authority" should cover that as well.  But CAPR 39-1 6-7 makes it crystal clear.

[IceNine]

 

I agree with you but think the phrase "competent military authority" should cover that as well.  But CAPR 39-1 6-7 makes it crystal clear.

Not real sure what you mean

I hope your not saying its ok if you chop off the last few words to make it say what you want

[jb512]

Cadets can qualify for and wear NRA marksmanship badges on the left pocket flap of the blue shirt and service dress jacket.  Some of the badges are listed here:

http://materials.nrahq.org/go/products.aspx?cat=Medals%20and%20Bars

[afgeo4]

Why is this just limited to cadets?

[Gunner C]

Why is this just limited to cadets?

I don't think that it passes "The Air Force Test."  USAF doesn't have marksmanship badges - they have the pickle ribbon for qualifications instead.  Cadets are into blingage and we're happy to ablige.

Heck, I can't wear my foreign jump wings, either.

GC

[nesagsar]

It would appear that this is how it works

Cadets- You can wear the NRA shooting badges on the Blues uniform if you have earned them.

Seniors- You can wear military shooting badges on the blues uniform if you have written authority.

This sucks for me because when I was a cadet I earned the Air Force Expert rating with the M-16a2 at encampment but I cant wear the ribbon.

[skippytim]

I was NRA Qualified. So I suppose this is the badge I'll need to purchase:
http://materials.nrahq.org/go/product.aspx?productid=EQ%2010512

I qualified according to the range instructor, but I havn't sent in my target yet. Anyone have a link with info on that? And is there something special I have to do to wear the badge on my blues?

[JohnKachenmeister]

It would appear that this is how it works

Cadets- You can wear the NRA shooting badges on the Blues uniform if you have earned them.

Seniors- You can wear military shooting badges on the blues uniform if you have written authority.

This sucks for me because when I was a cadet I earned the Air Force Expert rating with the M-16a2 at encampment but I cant wear the ribbon.

Not quite.

You could wear the Air Force or the Navy or the Coast Guard RIBBONS for marksmanship.  You cannot wear the Army or Marine Corps BADGES for marksmanship because those badges are not authorized on the Air Force uniform.

[Hawk200]

I was NRA Qualified. So I suppose this is the badge I'll need to purchase:
http://materials.nrahq.org/go/product.aspx?productid=EQ%2010512

I qualified according to the range instructor, but I havn't sent in my target yet. Anyone have a link with info on that? And is there something special I have to do to wear the badge on my blues?

Uh, no. Before you go buying like crazy, I can tell you for a fact, that's not the right one. I've seen an actual Jr NRA Marskmanship badge, that's not it. I'll get back to you when I actually find the right one.

Now did you only fire one time at this "qualification"? Because a single target, or even a single day of, shooting isn't gonna qualify you for NRA badges. The programs require a great deal of time, usually several months and several competitions that are specifically organized.

Unless your "qualification" was run in accordance with NRA rules, you probably won't even be able to buy a badge from the NRA.

[Flying Pig]

OK, Im a little confused.  Does this mean I can wear my USMC rifle and pistol badge?  Or does the "authorized for wear on an AF uniform" cover that?

[Hawk200]

OK, Im a little confused.  Does this mean I can wear my USMC rifle and pistol badge?  Or does the "authorized for wear on an AF uniform" cover that?

No, you may not. The only marksmanship badges allowed are from certain NRA or CMP programs. No other marksmanship badges are authorized on CAP or even Air Force uniforms.

A lot of people see the Rifle or Pistol badges in Table 6-5, and assume that it means any pistol or rifle badges are authorized. It's an incorrect assumption.

[PHall]

OK, Im a little confused.  Does this mean I can wear my USMC rifle and pistol badge?  Or does the "authorized for wear on an AF uniform" cover that?

No, because they're not authorized on the Air Force uniform.
If you were in the Air Force and you had earned your USMC Rifle and Pistol Badge while in the Marines, you would not wear the badge but would wear the Small Arms Expert Markmanship Ribbon instead.
If you shot Expert on two or more weapons you would attach ONE 3/16" bronze star to the ribbon.

The question if you can do the same for CAP has never really been answered. About all you can do is send Suzie Parker an e-mail and see what kind of answer you get.

[JohnKachenmeister]

OK, Im a little confused.  Does this mean I can wear my USMC rifle and pistol badge?  Or does the "authorized for wear on an AF uniform" cover that?

The AF does not permit wear of the Army and Marine Corps-style shooting badges on its uniform.  The AF (as well as the Navy and CG) issue ribbons to recognize outstanding shooting.  Ribbons ARE authorized.  Badges are not.

NRA badges can be worn BY CADETS.  Not by officers.

[Major Lord]

There is however, a provision in Air Force regulations for CAP (adult) members to earn and wear the M-9 expert qualification ribbon. I have never heard of it actually happening.

Major Lord

[jb512]

I was NRA Qualified. So I suppose this is the badge I'll need to purchase:
http://materials.nrahq.org/go/product.aspx?productid=EQ%2010512

I qualified according to the range instructor, but I havn't sent in my target yet. Anyone have a link with info on that? And is there something special I have to do to wear the badge on my blues?

Uh, no. Before you go buying like crazy, I can tell you for a fact, that's not the right one. I've seen an actual Jr NRA Marskmanship badge, that's not it. I'll get back to you when I actually find the right one.

Now did you only fire one time at this "qualification"? Because a single target, or even a single day of, shooting isn't gonna qualify you for NRA badges. The programs require a great deal of time, usually several months and several competitions that are specifically organized.

Unless your "qualification" was run in accordance with NRA rules, you probably won't even be able to buy a badge from the NRA.

That's not entirely accurate.  At the summer encampments in TXWG we run the cadets through instruction and a course of fire with .22 rifles.  They meet all of the requirements, including their qualifying score, to wear the NRA badges, in accordance with the NRA and CAPM 39-1.

Some of the courses of fire and information is listed here:

http://www.nrahq.org/education/training/marksmanship/light_rifle.asp

The correct badges for qualification are also listed on the NRA's website in their online store area that I posted earlier.  CAPM 39-1 states that the badges can be worn by cadets only: "Men: with the top edge centered on the left pocket flap of the service coat or shirt when worn as an outergarment. Women: in the same position as specialty insignia (above the ribbons and beneath the wings).  It obviously didn't get an update for the new service coat.

Edit: R changed to M... Thanks for the correction...

[MIKE]

Hey guys, its CAPM 39-1 and CAPR 39-3.  And CAPR 39-3 as worded rules out award of the Small Arms Expert Marksman Ribbon and the like to anyone who hasn't served.  Despite what the AFI says.

[Pylon]

Hey guys, its CAPM 39-1 and CAPR 39-3.  And CAPR 39-3 as worded rules out award of the Small Arms Expert Marksman Ribbon and the like to anyone who hasn't served.  Despite what the AFI says.

Actually, the AF can award it by their AFI.  But Civil Air Patrol won't let you wear it on your uniform. 

The same goes for those Air Medals that CAP members earned in combat from WWII.  They can't wear those Air Medals on their CAP uniforms today because of the wording of the reg.  Those IAWG members that received commendations from the Army?  Can't wear 'em.   Got a CAP member who earned the Presidential Medal of Freedom?  Can't wear it. 

But I digress; it's topic drift.   

[RiverAux]

The same goes for those Air Medals that CAP members earned in combat from WWII.

How you figure? 

[skippytim]

Okay...so we shot 40 times with a .22 at 25 yards. What qualification would that be; and what ribbon would cadets wear? Anyone have a link to the ribbon cadets can wear?

[cnitas]

No ribbon, no qualification unless you were using some sort of NRA program.

[mikeylikey]

Hey guys, its CAPM 39-1 and CAPR 39-3.  And CAPR 39-3 as worded rules out award of the Small Arms Expert Marksman Ribbon and the like to anyone who hasn't served.  Despite what the AFI says.

Actually, the AF can award it by their AFI.  But Civil Air Patrol won't let you wear it on your uniform. 

The same goes for those Air Medals that CAP members earned in combat from WWII.  They can't wear those Air Medals on their CAP uniforms today because of the wording of the reg.  Those IAWG members that received commendations from the Army?  Can't wear 'em.   Got a CAP member who earned the Presidential Medal of Freedom?  Can't wear it. 

But I digress; it's topic drift.   

That should change, wouldn't you agree?

[Hawk200]

The correct badges for qualification are also listed on the NRA's website in their online store area that I posted earlier. 

CAPM 39-1, Table 6-2, Item 11 only lists the Junior National Rifle Association Marksmanship Badge for wear by cadets. Anything other than that is not authorized. Just because someone has an NRA badge doesn't necessarily mean they can wear it.

That Jr NRA Marksmanship badge listed is a specific badge. I've only actually seen one cadet that had it. As for a pic, I'm still looking for one, they're pretty rare.

[John Bryan]

As a side note, as I read 39-1 I see nothing saying cadets can't earn "RM" badges and such , if they are in the "RM".

Remember CAP cadets can stay CAP cadets and be in the reserves, guard, ROTC or military academy. We have cadet from my unit who is a West Point cadet who will be going to airborne school this summer. I see nothing in 39-1 that would restrict him from wearing his Army Airborne Wings on his CAP uniform (if he ever had time to come to CAP and wear it  )

[Short Field]

Semantics...

CAP Cadets, while functioning as a CAP Cadet, can't earn RM ribbons.  RM, who are not functioning as a CAP Cadet at the time, earn them. 

[RiverAux]

Ah, except for the technically possible, but unlikely under the current system, situation where a CAP member could earn an AF award for some action (see other thread). 

[isuhawkeye]

Is this what you are looking for

http://materials.nrahq.org/go/images/thumb/EQ20020-thumbnail.jpg

[DNall]

As a side note, as I read 39-1 I see nothing saying cadets can't earn "RM" badges and such , if they are in the "RM".

Remember CAP cadets can stay CAP cadets and be in the reserves, guard, ROTC or military academy. We have cadet from my unit who is a West Point cadet who will be going to airborne school this summer. I see nothing in 39-1 that would restrict him from wearing his Army Airborne Wings on his CAP uniform (if he ever had time to come to CAP and wear it  )

Wouldn't that put him on active duty? Not that I care. We got a cadet deployed to Iraq right now (guard) and no one is about to convert him to senior.

[arajca]

Going through Airborne school is training and does not mandate that the cadet convert to seniordom.

Being deployed as a gaurd or reservist does require a cadet convert to seniordom under the "extended active duty" clause. Basic/AIT does not. Monthly training does not. Two week annual does not. Deployment does.

[mikeylikey]

^ I think attending a Service Academy should count as a reason to make the cadet a Senior Member.  The DOD counts Academy Cadets on the Active duty scrolls, thus they are Active Duty, and they get all the rights and benefits of being AD.  Heck they get real military ribbons while attending the Academies, while their counterparts in ROTC get pretend "Cadet Land" ribbons.  Anyway, I have never been very impressed with Academy graduates to begin with, they stay in the service for less time, and they have a certain arrogance about them.  PLUS ROTC and OCS/OTS make better officers (the well-rounded citizen-soldier/citizen-airman type that our military is based on).  The Academies are throwbacks to a different time in the United States, and I am all for shutting them down to save the tax-payers some $$ 

WOW I digressed too far.... 

ROTC=Reserve, Reserves=Reserve, National Guard=Reserve, Academy=Active Duty, and Active Duty= Active Duty. 

I am all for transitioning a Cadet to Senior if he or she is ordered from the reserves to Active Duty for a deployment as well.

[Ned]

I have never been very impressed with Academy graduates to begin with, they stay in the service for less time, and they have a certain arrogance about them.  PLUS ROTC and OCS/OTS make better officers (the well-rounded citizen-soldier/citizen-airman type that our military is based on).  The Academies are throwbacks to a different time in the United States, and I am all for shutting them down to save the tax-payers some $$ 

I take it you are not an Academy grad . .  .

Ned Lee
Retired Army Guy
(and ROTC DMG)

[mikeylikey]

^ Thought about applying, but did not.  I live military most of the working day as it is now, didn't want to do that for four years before actually serving in the military. 

I have a few friends who went to AFA, and West Point, and they all wish they had the "real" college experience.

Not that any of that matters, most of the services "retrain" all new Officers at a basic type course no matter where they were Commissioned.  However, being the only ROTC guy in an OBC class full of West Pointers was (to say the least) an experience. 

Anyway.....back to topic at hand...... is there a cost associated with the NRA marksmanship program?  Has anyone done this with their SQD?

[John Bryan]

^ I think attending a Service Academy should count as a reason to make the cadet a Senior Member.  The DOD counts Academy Cadets on the Active duty scrolls, thus they are Active Duty, and they get all the rights and benefits of being AD.  Heck they get real military ribbons while attending the Academies, while their counterparts in ROTC get pretend "Cadet Land" ribbons.  Anyway, I have never been very impressed with Academy graduates to begin with, they stay in the service for less time, and they have a certain arrogance about them.  PLUS ROTC and OCS/OTS make better officers (the well-rounded citizen-soldier/citizen-airman type that our military is based on).  The Academies are throwbacks to a different time in the United States, and I am all for shutting them down to save the tax-payers some $$ 

WOW I digressed too far.... 

ROTC=Reserve, Reserves=Reserve, National Guard=Reserve, Academy=Active Duty, and Active Duty= Active Duty. 

I am all for transitioning a Cadet to Senior if he or she is ordered from the reserves to Active Duty for a deployment as well.

I respectfully do not agree with you on this.  I would note that for retirement and other things of meaning (not that ribbons don't have meaning...thought I'd say that before I start a war of word  :angel:) their service starts after they graduate from the academy. Those 4 years don't count.  I see no need to force our CAP cadets into senior membership.....they will have enough time to wear gray and turn gray.

[Hawk200]

I would note that for retirement and other things of meaning (not that ribbons don't have meaning...thought I'd say that before I start a war of word  :angel:) their service starts after they graduate from the academy. Those 4 years don't count.  I see no need to force our CAP cadets into senior membership.....they will have enough time to wear gray and turn gray.

When it comes to those Academies, it's kind of a moot point anyway. Just about any (yes, I know, not necessarily every)  cadet making it through is senior member age by the time they graduate. From what I've seen, most of them take a few years before they come back to CAP, if at all.

Now back to the topic at hand. So far I have not been able to find a photo on the web of the Junior NRA Marksmanship badge. It is a specific badge, and actually has that specific inscription on it. If the badge does not say that, it isn't authorized for wear. The ones shown in the various links on this thread are not the proper one.

[DNall]

Just quickly on this side topic...

Service academy is active duty enlistment. It does count as your pay entry base date. It does count toward retirement in terms of total years, but that's quirky. If you're prior enlisted then you need 20yrs commissioned service to retire at your commissioned grade (otherwise it reverts to previous enlisted grade), and 30yrs commissioned for that rate. The prior enlisted years, including time at an academy or in OTS get added on after that.

A lot of cadet officers (at least around here) stay semi-active during college so they can test thru Spaatz. Guard/res deployment is not generally by choice. My cadet that's deployed turns 21 while he's gone, but that's not always the case. I recall seeing a story about a NYWG cadet (IIRC) that came back from deployment with combat ribbons & continued as a cadet. I don't think it'd be right to hold involuntary deployment against a cadet trying to take a Spaatz. If we're going to do that we might as well cut the program off at 18 & work harder to transition those folks to adult officers.

[MIKE]

Drift terminated.