House Bill Allows Saluting of flag by Vets in civies

[Eclipse]

http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bill.xpd?bill=s110-1877

"A bill to amend title 4, United States Code, to prescribe that members of the Armed Forces and veterans out of uniform may render the military salute during hoisting, lowering, or passing of flag."

Has passed the Senate.

[Hawk200]

http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bill.xpd?bill=s110-1877

"A bill to amend title 4, United States Code, to prescribe that members of the Armed Forces and veterans out of uniform may render the military salute during hoisting, lowering, or passing of flag."

Has passed the Senate.

That's cool. Seems like I was always starting to render a salute when such a thing was happening, remembering what I was wearing, and then looking like a dork.

A salute always felt more appropriate.

[ColonelJack]

I do it anyway.  Let 'em think I'm a dork.  I was proud to serve my country.

But thanks to Congress for working to make it "legal."

Jack

[Cecil DP]

I do it anyway.  Let 'em think I'm a dork.  I was proud to serve my country.

But thanks to Congress for working to make it "legal."

Jack

I always salute in or out of uniform. Also when passing a veterans cemetary.

[MSgt Van]

In or out of AF or CAP uniform, not saluting has never been an option for me.

[Gunner C]

I do it anyway.  Let 'em think I'm a dork.  I was proud to serve my country.

But thanks to Congress for working to make it "legal."

Jack

Nice of them to give us the big okey dokey for what many of us have been doing for years.  Heck, I spent about a quarter of my military career not wearing a uniform - I saluted whenever it was appropriate and it was never questioned.  (There were times when I was in uniform when it wasn't appropriate - but that's another thread.)

[ColonelJack]

[Nice of them to give us the big okey dokey for what many of us have been doing for years.  Heck, I spent about a quarter of my military career not wearing a uniform - I saluted whenever it was appropriate and it was never questioned.  (There were times when I was in uniform when it wasn't appropriate - but that's another thread.)

You'd be surprised at how many salute, uniform or no.  At a Braves game at Turner Field a few years back, during the National Anthem, I cut my eyes around briefly and saw several men in my section of the ballpark saluting.  So was I.

Jack

[mikeylikey]

......I saluted whenever it was appropriate and it was never questioned.  (There were times when I was in uniform when it wasn't appropriate - but that's another thread.)

Same here.  I salute Officers that are senior to me even on a Sunday when walking into the PX.  The gate guards salute me when I am driving through even though I am not in a uniform, and I return it.  Soldiers salute me when they recognize who I am, and I return it even when not wearing a uniform.  I was always under the belief that Officer and Enlisted are always "on duty" even when the duty day is over.  Same is true for CAP, but in CAP we have somehow lost the practice of military customs and courtesies on the Senior Member side.  And that is a sad shame!

[captrncap]

The gate guards salute me when I am driving through even though I am not in a uniform, and I return it.  Soldiers salute me when they recognize who I am, and I return it even when not wearing a uniform.  I was always under the belief that Officer and Enlisted are always "on duty" even when the duty day is over.  Same is true for CAP, but in CAP we have somehow lost the practice of military customs and courtesies on the Senior Member side.  And that is a sad shame!

The idea of saluting when not in uniform is great. It can be optional but that would clear up a lot misgiving of seniors who are not in uniform and don't know what to do when ask to report to the Commander, etc.

Why can't you salute – what the Saluting Police will tie your right arm to your body so you don't do it again.

[mynetdude]

at the squadron we only salute to the commander indoors when it is "formal" such as awards and such and while outside.  Other than that, we don't salute because "the commander wants to see you in his office"

[mikeylikey]

  Other than that, we don't salute because "the commander wants to see you in his office"

That is what I was trying to get across, that CAP Senior Members do not follow customs and courtesies that we expect our Cadets to follow.  If the commander wanted to see you in her office, then you would report.  Something like "Lt Snuffy reporting as ordered Ma'am", would do just fine.

I don't know what happened between 1950 and today, but we lost a military tradition, on that was very obviously used by CAP until everything became so "relaxed".  And yes, I understand this is not the military or AF, but we are the AF Auxiliary.  Lets start acting like them just a little more and I bet everyone would feel better about themselves.

Side story, I was sitting at a Wing Commander Call, and everyone was BS'ing before the King walked in.  After the Wing Commander walked in and made his way to the podium, not one Officer (and there were some prior-service types there) called the room to attention.  Before he began speaking I called the room to attention for him.  It was like I just said "your dog is dead" because it took a full 20 seconds for people to start standing up.  They did and just glared at me like I did something wrong.  After the meeting the Wing King pulled me aside and thanked me for what I did, and said it had been years since anyone called a room to attention for him or anyone else at the Wing HQ.  THAT is terrible!

[mynetdude]

  Other than that, we don't salute because "the commander wants to see you in his office"

That is what I was trying to get across, that CAP Senior Members do not follow customs and courtesies that we expect our Cadets to follow.  If the commander wanted to see you in her office, then you would report.  Something like "Lt Snuffy reporting as ordered Ma'am", would do just fine.

I don't know what happened between 1950 and today, but we lost a military tradition, on that was very obviously used by CAP until everything became so "relaxed".  And yes, I understand this is not the military or AF, but we are the AF Auxiliary.  Lets start acting like them just a little more and I bet everyone would feel better about themselves.

Side story, I was sitting at a Wing Commander Call, and everyone was BS'ing before the King walked in.  After the Wing Commander walked in and made his way to the podium, not one Officer (and there were some prior-service types there) called the room to attention.  Before he began speaking I called the room to attention for him.  It was like I just said "your dog is dead" because it took a full 20 seconds for people to start standing up.  They did and just glared at me like I did something wrong.  After the meeting the Wing King pulled me aside and thanked me for what I did, and said it had been years since anyone called a room to attention for him or anyone else at the Wing HQ.  THAT is terrible!

Well as far as my squadron is concerned, this is not such a big deal for seniors unless A) we are at encampment, B) on a military base (but even that, I have not had to really salute on military base either quite surprisingly as none of the NCOs saluted the CAP officers only the AF officers).  C) formal activities such as ceremonies, promotions/awards, funderals, etc.

Now as to standing at attention for wing commander, this should be done he is pretty much the only high ranking officer unless there is already another Colonel in the room which even that is rare.

[captrncap]

Now as to standing at attention for wing commander, this should be done he is pretty much the only high ranking officer unless there is already another Colonel in the room which even that is rare.

In this instance, the Wing Commander out ranks any other Colonel in the room so the room should be called to attention.

[mynetdude]

Now as to standing at attention for wing commander, this should be done he is pretty much the only high ranking officer unless there is already another Colonel in the room which even that is rare.

In this instance, the Wing Commander out ranks any other Colonel in the room so the room should be called to attention.

I'm not experienced with military protocols customs & courtesies as it seems to be confusing at times.  However, it is my understanding that unless there is already a higher "ranking" officer in the room the officer of the same grade then calling to attention is not required.

And lets not get rank vs grade confused here, you typically salute the grade they are wearing and thus call to attention to the highest grade that walks into the room full of lower grade officers/NCOs.

I have even seen where a LtCol was already in the room, another LtCol comes in, we call to attention to the next one because he has more "seniority" (as in he has more TIG than the other LtCol) and we only do this because we know that fact otherwise as I stated before unless there is an officer of the same grade in the room we don't stand at attention although I would have no problem standing at attention for the wing CC or squadron CC.

[jimmydeanno]

Before he began speaking I called the room to attention for him.  It was like I just said "your dog is dead" because it took a full 20 seconds for people to start standing up.  They did and just glared at me like I did something wrong.  After the meeting the Wing King pulled me aside and thanked me for what I did, and said it had been years since anyone called a room to attention for him or anyone else at the Wing HQ.  THAT is terrible!

We don't do a "Room, ATTENTION" but simply, "Ladies and gentlemen, the Commander," and everyone rises. 

[mikeylikey]

Grade "outranks rank" when two of the same rank are in the room.  So two Colonels, one being the Region Commander and one being the Wing Commander, the Region Commander would get the room called to attention if he walks in after the Wing Commander is already sitting inside. 

And yes, the custom would be "Ladies and Gentleman the Commander", or replace commander with what he or she is, such as "Region Commander, Wing Commander" etc.  However most in CAP will not understand that, and a "room attention" would be more fitting.

[Gunner C]

Before he began speaking I called the room to attention for him.  It was like I just said "your dog is dead" because it took a full 20 seconds for people to start standing up.  They did and just glared at me like I did something wrong.  After the meeting the Wing King pulled me aside and thanked me for what I did, and said it had been years since anyone called a room to attention for him or anyone else at the Wing HQ.  THAT is terrible!

We don't do a "Room, ATTENTION" but simply, "Ladies and gentlemen, the Commander," and everyone rises. 

That's the correct way.  I learned that the hard way. 

Gunner C War Story ™:

I was a brand new officer who was TDY at SOCLANT (Special Operations Command, Atlantic).  We went across the street every day to LANTCOM (Atlantic Command) HQs for the admiral's daily brief.  Being an Army SF officer, I wasn't well versed (at all) in Navy stuff.

When I left after the briefing, I was at the badge control window turning in my security badge when someone yelled "ADMIRAL ON DECK!"  I thought to myself, what the heck was that?  I turned around to see four stars on an officer's collar - it was USCINCLANT himself and he wasn't amused.  A quick scan told me that I was the only guy who wasn't standing at attention and the situation wasn't getting better.

I immediately reverted to an officer candidate mentality and went into receive mode.  He asked me how I was doing, I replied "Fine, Sir" and apologized for not understanding that the announcement was for everyone to stand at attention when he was there until he gave "as you were."

He saw that I was mortified (and VERY worried about selling pencils on the street corner) and a smile cracked the corner or his mouth.   He said, "Welcome to the Navy, son."  I fought the natural tendency for a wisecrack like "thanks, Dad." 

[nesagsar]

As I remember the drill and ceremonies manual says to call the room to attention.

[mynetdude]

Before he began speaking I called the room to attention for him.  It was like I just said "your dog is dead" because it took a full 20 seconds for people to start standing up.  They did and just glared at me like I did something wrong.  After the meeting the Wing King pulled me aside and thanked me for what I did, and said it had been years since anyone called a room to attention for him or anyone else at the Wing HQ.  THAT is terrible!

We don't do a "Room, ATTENTION" but simply, "Ladies and gentlemen, the Commander," and everyone rises. 

That's the correct way.  I learned that the hard way. 

Gunner C War Story ™:

I was a brand new officer who was TDY at SOCLANT (Special Operations Command, Atlantic).  We went across the street every day to LANTCOM (Atlantic Command) HQs for the admiral's daily brief.  Being an Army SF officer, I wasn't well versed (at all) in Navy stuff.

When I left after the briefing, I was at the badge control window turning in my security badge when someone yelled "ADMIRAL ON DECK!"  I thought to myself, what the heck was that?  I turned around to see four stars on an officer's collar - it was USCINCLANT himself and he wasn't amused.  A quick scan told me that I was the only guy who wasn't standing at attention and the situation wasn't getting better.

I immediately reverted to an officer candidate mentality and went into receive mode.  He asked me how I was doing, I replied "Fine, Sir" and apologized for not understanding that the announcement was for everyone to stand at attention when he was there until he gave "as you were."

He saw that I was mortified (and VERY worried about selling pencils on the street corner) and a smile cracked the corner or his mouth.   He said, "Welcome to the Navy, son."  I fought the natural tendency for a wisecrack like "thanks, Dad." 

'Tis ok I learned the hard way at encampment too... by my own commander I ended up having to go through customs & courtesies drill one on one.  I know it better, but still difficult due to my vision and hearing and my natural age old habits that I don't break and I still get the low end. He even warned me that if I didn't improve during encampment I would receive "mess duties".

[Gunner C]

As I remember the drill and ceremonies manual says to call the room to attention.

It probably does.  But this is (1) tradition and (2) not the drill field.  If you called everyone to attention in a briefing room in the military, you'd probably be looked at like you had a third eye in the middle of your forehead.

[ddelaney103]

As I remember the drill and ceremonies manual says to call the room to attention.

It probably does.  But this is (1) tradition and (2) not the drill field.  If you called everyone to attention in a briefing room in the military, you'd probably be looked at like you had a third eye in the middle of your forehead.

Also, "Ladies and Gentlemen, the Commander" is a custom mainly when it's a high ranking  officer among officers, such as high level staff meetings.  "Officer's Call" stuff, as opposed to normal "Commander's Call."