Question about the American flag on the BDU's

[flyguy06]

Ok, I dont usually ask a question on this thread but hear it goes.

What was the reasoning for us putting the American flag on our BDU's? The Air Force doesnt do this. So why do we?

Topic title spelling. - MIKE

[Gunner C]

Someone (HWNWNBM) thought that it would be cool to have a backwards flag like the Army.

The Army began wearing them in Panama when the Panama Defense Forces had the same cammie pattern.  It would keep you from getting shot. (It was pinned on with a safety pin - I didn't argue because my team had long hair and sterile uniforms; anything to make us look like gringos was good by me).

Earlier, the 82nd and 101st Abn Divisions wore them in WW2 to serve as a far recognition signal.  In their case, most everyone you ran into was an enemy soldier.  It gave you an extra chance to not get plugged.  The interesting thing is that it was worn on the right sleeve just like today, but it wasn't backwards.

The current spate of flags was started by the immediate past chief of staff of the army.  He was the one who mandated the permanent wear of the flag.  He grew up in 1st SFOD-D.  They wore flags whenever they deployed.  It kept their idots assaulters from shooting their own people.  Since this is what he was used to, this is what he thought the rest of the army should have.  The backwards flag was inspired by flags on the starboard vertical stabilizer of C-141s and C-5s (also used by 1st SFOD-D to deploy).  The use of reverse field flags on aircraft actually goes back to WW1.  American pursuit planes attached flags to the rigging wires on the wings.  The flags on aircraft recall this.  But this was the ONLY traditional use of this type of flag.  The use of it on the uniform conforms to neither tradition nor military custom.

I've always thought it was a dumb thing to do.  After spending millions on the woodland cammie pattern, they stuck a big red, white, and blue patch on one of the sleeves.  It would appear that if it were really necessary, you'd see lot's of fratricide incidents in the Marine Corps (they don't wear them).  That's not the case. 

GC

[JohnKachenmeister]

And what fratricide incidents HAVE occured took place at night.

Maybe the flag should be made of glow-sticks?

[Hawk200]

And what fratricide incidents HAVE occured took place at night.

Maybe the flag should be made of glow-sticks?

Have you noticed that a lot of the footage from in theater shows soldiers wearing IR flags? I do know they are pretty obvious under NVGs.

[RogueLeader]

And what fratricide incidents HAVE occured took place at night.

Maybe the flag should be made of glow-sticks?

Have you noticed that a lot of the footage from in theater shows soldiers wearing IR flags? I do know they are pretty obvious under NVGs.

IIRC, they were supposed to be that way.

[Hawk200]

And what fratricide incidents HAVE occured took place at night.

Maybe the flag should be made of glow-sticks?

Have you noticed that a lot of the footage from in theater shows soldiers wearing IR flags? I do know they are pretty obvious under NVGs.

IIRC, they were supposed to be that way.

Point taken 

If the ones doing the shooting were wearing NVG's, there probably would have been fewer incidents.

[Gunner C]

And what fratricide incidents HAVE occured took place at night.

Maybe the flag should be made of glow-sticks?

Have you noticed that a lot of the footage from in theater shows soldiers wearing IR flags? I do know they are pretty obvious under NVGs.

IIRC, they were supposed to be that way.

Point taken 

If the ones doing the shooting were wearing NVG's, there probably would have been fewer incidents.

Not always.  During the Panama Invasion everyone wore a 1" square of glint tape (vehicles included) so Spectre would be able to tell us from the bad guys.  There were several guys in an M113 at the Comandancia who were killed by a 105mm round.  The Air Force claimed that it was an errant round.  Afterwards, they reviewed the gun camera.  Sure enough, the M113 was dead in the sights of the Spectre.  When the aircrew saw it, they turned white - they were horrified that they killed one of their own vehicles (with everyone in it) that was properly marked and was exactly where it was supposed to be.

In the heat of battle, fratricide happens, even with the absolute best night vision devices and crews.  Combat is dangerous and all of the glint tape, flags, lifts and shifts, etc aren't going to get rid of 100%.  It takes a great deal of situational awareness to keep from killing friendlies.  BTW, the flags we were issued in Panama weren't the puny little flags you see today.  I still have mine - it was over 8" long.  It was HUGE.  If you want to make sure you have a far recognition signal, use those, not the ones we have today.  But then, they don't look as good. 

GC

[Hawk200]

Not always.  During the Panama Invasion everyone wore a 1" square of glint tape (vehicles included) so Spectre would be able to tell us from the bad guys.  There were several guys in an M113 at the Comandancia who were killed by a 105mm round.  The Air Force claimed that it was an errant round.  Afterwards, they reviewed the gun camera.  Sure enough, the M113 was dead in the sights of the Spectre.  When the aircrew saw it, they turned white - they were horrified that they killed one of their own vehicles (with everyone in it) that was properly marked and was exactly where it was supposed to be.

In the heat of battle, fratricide happens, even with the absolute best night vision devices and crews.  Combat is dangerous and all of the glint tape, flags, lifts and shifts, etc aren't going to get rid of 100%.  It takes a great deal of situational awareness to keep from killing friendlies.  BTW, the flags we were issued in Panama weren't the puny little flags you see today.  I still have mine - it was over 8" long.  It was HUGE.  If you want to make sure you have a far recognition signal, use those, not the ones we have today.  But then, they don't look as good. 

Please take note that I said fewer, not none. Accidents always happen, that's why the circumstances are often referred to as the "Fog of War". The only way not to have casualties is to not wage war.

The IR items are fairly effective, it's a matter of the individual shooting not paying attention, or just not taking a few more seconds to analyze. That's why we should pay attention to our training, and not consider it wasted time. The situational awareness that you mentioned must be maintained at all times, not just turned on and off when you feel like it.

[mikeylikey]

^ It is also a factor of soldiers/airman/marines being somewhere they should not be.  I know of specific instances where Soldiers were killed because they were inside a building they had no reason to be in, and were told NOT to go into.  Situational Awareness is everyone's responsibility, not just the kid "pulling the trigger"!!!

I can't stress enough to my ROTC Cadets, that when you are briefed on where/when/how to be somewhere, you better shut the hell up, take good notes, and pay attention, or you could get yourself killed!

Same is true on the civilian side.  When people are told "do not go into that building because we are blowing it up at 11AM", usually people will not go inside.  BUT then you read about the "bodies found in the ruble when the demo crews thought the building was clear".

[DNall]

Hawk, how those little squares on ACUs look from the air? My guys couldn't spot marked vehicles from more than 1500m, and we're engaging outside that. IR rescue strobe is little better.

What this has to do with flags on CAP BDUs I couldn't begin to tell you.

[lordmonar]

What is the old adage?

"Your incoming artillery will fall short the same distance that you are forward of your reported position".

[JayT]

What is the old adage?

"Your incoming artillery will fall short the same distance that you are forward of your reported position".

"Oh, don't worry, that's outgoing."
" (Pause) Does that mean there'll be incoming? Because if there is........I'm gonna need one of those metal hats..."

[PHall]

"Friendly fire isn't and incoming fire has the right of way."

[afgeo4]

The truth is, we don't know why the flag was authorized. No reason was given.

[Hawk200]

"Oh, don't worry, that's outgoing."
" (Pause) Does that mean there'll be incoming? Because if there is........I'm gonna need one of those metal hats..."

Drawing a blank as to what that's from. Fill me in, please, it sounds like a movie worth watching.

[flyguy06]

How do I correct the title here? I mispelled American and I want to change it. The "modify" doesnt come up on my screen?

[mikeylikey]

^MODS need to I believe....

[MIKE]

Fixed.  There is a time limit of I think 12 hours to modify a message for normal users.

[JayT]

"Oh, don't worry, that's outgoing."
" (Pause) Does that mean there'll be incoming? Because if there is........I'm gonna need one of those metal hats..."

Drawing a blank as to what that's from. Fill me in, please, it sounds like a movie worth watching.

A stand up comic named Chris Titus, does a lot of material about being on a USO tour in Iraq in 05.

[flyguy06]

Thanks Mike