CAP moving to the DoD

[♠SARKID♠]

From the "candidates" thread.

The content of this post does not necessarily reflect views/opinions of the poster, and is the sole property of a different CAP member.
So for the love of God, don't shoot the messenger on this one.

Somebody brought up some interesting points about McCain moving us to the DoD.

1) We'd have our own funding
2) We'd have our own joint chief
3) We'd be in charge of ourselves, and wouldn't have to have everything approved by a restrictive governing body.

Not shooting at you, SARKID, but...

I guess I don't understand what you're saying.  Could you give me some more detail?

1)  We would have our own larger budget that would be ours to do with as we please, rather than the skin and bones we are on now.  As it is, the Air Force pays for themselves before they pay for us.

2) & 3)  A joint chief allows us to have a direct say in our actions, how the government uses us, what we do etc.  As opposed to going through USAF liaisons and up to the head of ma blue.  It gives a measure of self control and power that could well work to better the organization.

Also, while typing this, I had an idea.  And its way. Way. WAY. WAY. WAY OUT IN LEFT FIELD.
DoD funding allows for an extremely small paycheck...(DON'T KILL ME!)

[jeders]

Weren't the posts in that thread about moving us to DOT, not DoD?

[♠SARKID♠]

Hmm...guess your right.  Well, no matter, its a interesting topic nonetheless.

[JayT]

From the "candidates" thread.

The content of this post does not necessarily reflect views/opinions of the poster, and is the sole property of a different CAP member.
So for the love of God, don't shoot the messenger on this one.

Somebody brought up some interesting points about McCain moving us to the DoD.

1) We'd have our own funding
2) We'd have our own joint chief
3) We'd be in charge of ourselves, and wouldn't have to have everything approved by a restrictive governing body.

Not shooting at you, SARKID, but...

I guess I don't understand what you're saying.  Could you give me some more detail?

1)  We would have our own larger budget that would be ours to do with as we please, rather than the skin and bones we are on now.  As it is, the Air Force pays for themselves before they pay for us.

2) & 3)  A joint chief allows us to have a direct say in our actions, how the government uses us, what we do etc.  As opposed to going through USAF liaisons and up to the head of ma blue.  It gives a measure of self control and power that could well work to better the organization.

Also, while typing this, I had an idea.  And its way. Way. WAY. WAY. WAY OUT IN LEFT FIELD.
DoD funding allows for an extremely small paycheck...(DON'T KILL ME!)

That is  never, ever going to happen. Why would a fifty thousand man volunteer organization needn a seat on the joint chiefs?

[CadetProgramGuy]

Ahh Heck...Move us to HLS.

[JohnKachenmeister]

If the proposal is to make CAP a separate armed forces branch, with a 4-star and a seat at the JCS, I gotta say that is SO not going to happen.  Exactly what warfighting role do we fill with C-172's?  Placing us under DoD as a player on a par with the Army, Navy, and Air Force means that we are down to "Old men and the Hitler Youth" to carry out our war aims.

There HAS been talk about making CAP the 8th branch of uniformed services, joining the military branches plus the USPHS and the Commissioned Corps of the NOAA.  That is do-able, but leaves the Cadet Program without a military sponsor.

If we were to become a separate branch, we would probably join the USCG under DHS.  In that role, we would continue as the USAF Auxiliary whenever the AF wanted us, but when not called into service of the AF we would work for the Secretary of Homeland Security.  This would relieve us from the constraints of the Posse Comitatus Act, so expect some law enforcement support missions.

[FW]

Moving CAP under the DHS umbrella has been thought about by the powers that were about 18 mos. ago.   There was even a "white paper" about it.  When the NB got wind of it, all heck broke out and life went on as usuall.... except for a change in leadership.

One thing to remember, we currently have a "grant" from the AF for O&M of CAP under a Cooperative Agreement and Statement of Work.  Before we could even think about moving to DHS, we need to be very selfish and think,  "What's in it for us?"  The last S.O.W. was negotiated in quick time due to the events of '99-00. We were in a rush to get to a more quite time and were left with a relationship which is quite different from pre SOW days.  Today, we are not in any great hurry to change our organization.  And I don't think "moving" CAP is going to make us larger, help with retention. or making us stronger unless we address some fundamental questions first.  I think discussing these issues would be a good topic to consider.

[_]

Moving CAP under the DHS umbrella has been thought about by the powers that were about 18 mos. ago.   There was even a "white paper" about it.  When the NB got wind of it, all heck broke out and life went on as usuall.... except for a change in leadership.

There was testimony given before congress relating to a bill that would allow DHS to utilize CAP.  It hasn't seemed to have gone anywhere.  Pineda was the main person testifying so I don't know the effect of him going bye-bye had on the bill.  It'll probably be like anything else in congress, it'll sit somewhere until something happens and they start asking why weren't we more prepared.

House Resolution 1333

[davedove]

Moving CAP under the DHS umbrella has been thought about by the powers that were about 18 mos. ago.   There was even a "white paper" about it.  When the NB got wind of it, all heck broke out and life went on as usuall.... except for a change in leadership.

There was testimony given before congress relating to a bill that would allow DHS to utilize CAP.  It hasn't seemed to have gone anywhere.  Pineda was the main person testifying so I don't know the effect of him going bye-bye had on the bill.  It'll probably be like anything else in congress, it'll sit somewhere until something happens and they start asking why weren't we more prepared.

House Resolution 1333

If DHS really wants to use us, it doesn't require an "Act of Congress." All it would require is a memorandum of understanding with all the details (who pays how much, who has priority if different orgs need CAP, etc.).

Of course, a complete move to DHS, if it ever happened WOULD require Congressional action.

[Nomex Maximus]

I think, what with VSAF coming on, that we will be moved to the ...

GIRL SCOUTS

...think of the advantages!

[JohnKachenmeister]

I think, what with VSAF coming on, that we will be moved to the ...

GIRL SCOUTS

...think of the advantages!

Yeah... their cookie sales give THEM a reliable funding source!

[BillB]

Moving to the Girl Scouts, Moving to DHS, moving to the National Guard, moving to DoD. I have an idfea for the mods to lock this moving thread. CAP is not going to move. If it does it will be closer to big blue and away from the corporate structure.

[ddelaney103]

There HAS been talk about making CAP the 8th branch of uniformed services, joining the military branches plus the USPHS and the Commissioned Corps of the NOAA.  That is do-able, but leaves the Cadet Program without a military sponsor.

Where has this talk come from?

[Nomex Maximus]

I think, what with VSAF coming on, that we will be moved to the ...

GIRL SCOUTS

...think of the advantages!

Yeah... their cookie sales give THEM a reliable funding source!

mmmmm...coooookiiiesssss

[flyerthom]

I think, what with VSAF coming on, that we will be moved to the ...

GIRL SCOUTS

...think of the advantages!

Yeah... their cookie sales give THEM a reliable funding source!

I am SO not selling thin mints door to door. And Nomex in a brown dress?

<runs screaming like a little girl out the door>

[davedove]

I think, what with VSAF coming on, that we will be moved to the ...

GIRL SCOUTS

...think of the advantages!

Yeah... their cookie sales give THEM a reliable funding source!

I am SO not selling thin mints door to door. And Nomex in a brown dress?

<runs screaming like a little girl out the door>

Yeah, but think of all the new badges you could wear on your uniform.

[Nomex Maximus]

I think, what with VSAF coming on, that we will be moved to the ...

GIRL SCOUTS

...think of the advantages!

Yeah... their cookie sales give THEM a reliable funding source!

I am SO not selling thin mints door to door. And Nomex in a brown dress?

<runs screaming like a little girl out the door>

Yeah, but think of all the new badges you could wear on your uniform.

hehehe...wanna see my badges?

[Nomex Maximus]

I think, what with VSAF coming on, that we will be moved to the ...

GIRL SCOUTS

...think of the advantages!

Yeah... their cookie sales give THEM a reliable funding source!

I am SO not selling thin mints door to door. And Nomex in a brown dress?

<runs screaming like a little girl out the door>

Nomex doesn't get to wear the brown dress uniform because he doesn't meet height and weight standards. He has to wear the blue corporate girl scout uniform instead.

[Eclipse]

There HAS been talk about making CAP the 8th branch of uniformed services, joining the military branches plus the USPHS and the Commissioned Corps of the NOAA.  That is do-able, but leaves the Cadet Program without a military sponsor.

Where has this talk come from?

Members who are bored because of the writer's strike.

[JohnKachenmeister]

Do we rate cloth fly-up wings?  Or do we have to use leather?

[MIKE]

Knock it off.

[RiverAux]

There is no real need for an MOU between CAP and DHS now.  If DHS wants to use us they can just call the NOC on a case-by-case basis.  If they need us during disaster situations they can still get us involved just like FEMA has for decades.

That being said, a formal MOU would definetely make things go easier.   

[John Bryan]

There HAS been talk about making CAP the 8th branch of uniformed services, joining the military branches plus the USPHS and the Commissioned Corps of the NOAA.  That is do-able, but leaves the Cadet Program without a military sponsor.

Why not conduct our own cadet program....if we were a uniformed service we could do that. As for military sponsor.....CP is NOT an Air Force Assigned Mission....no real change.

Also someone said something above about a 4 star to run CAP.....lets look at the uniformed services ....the 5 military services are lead by 4 stars....BUT
the US Public Health Service is lead by the US Surgeon General , a Vice Admiral (3 star)....for the record there is one 4 star slot in the PHS, but it is not always filed....under the law when the President appoints a person the Asst Sec for Health (aka the ASH) at HHS they can take a comission as an  Admiral. The PHS has about 6500 officers....I believe the law allows them 10% to make flag. As for NOAA Commissioned Corps Officers they are lead by a Rear Admiral or 2 star. I think there are less then 4000 NOAA officers.

The biggest difference between USPHS and NOAA is that their officers are full time , paid and all have commissions. But they are also both smaller then CAP or the USCG Aux...I dont know....it might be apples and oranges.

I do not think CAP  will ever be made the 8th uniformed service ......if we raised are standards it might work. I just can't see Congress going for it.

Tags - MIKE

[ZigZag911]

I don't see where independence would benefit us; we don't have the logistical framework to do a 'stand alone' operation!

I also really don't see a need for this.

[John Bryan]

I don't see where independence would benefit us; we don't have the logistical framework to do a 'stand alone' operation!

I also really don't see a need for this.

How would being part of the Dept of Transportation or Dept of Homeland Security be any more independent then being a private corperation that gets to sometimes be part of the Dept of the Air Force. I think any move to make us a government agency is a good move. Remember we went from 1941 to 1947 as part of the government before becoming CAP INC.....

so there are a few issues...

1. CAP Inc vs. CAP the government agency (or USAF Aux).
2. USAF Aux vs. part of another federal agency.

But no mattter how you would do it we would "belong" to someone....there are very very few independent agency ....one example would be the NTSB.

We could keep the uniforms even if we were not a "Uniformed Service" , there are a lot of federal agencies with uniforms.....National Park Service, ICE, US Park Police, Forest Service.

Again....I am not saying we should be moved but I also think there should always be an open mind to if a move would be right. The USCG move from DOT to HLS was right because of the times we live in.....not sure now is the time for any moves....but always it is proper to be open to consideration.

[ZigZag911]

Sorry, I was referring to standing CAP up as a separate agency within DOD....don't see the likelihood, don't really see any point or benefit to it.

As for bouncing us to another federal agency.....for good or ill, we've been part of the USAF family pretty much as long as there has been a USAF...somehow leaving "family" just doesn't sit well with me....besides, what makes us so sure DHS wants us?

[John Bryan]

As for bouncing us to another federal agency.....for good or ill, we've been part of the USAF family pretty much as long as there has been a USAF...somehow leaving "family" just doesn't sit well with me....besides, what makes us so sure DHS wants us?
[/quote]


First ....I can't say too many times I am not saying we need or should move. But we always should be open to it. A lot of people have your objection, we have always been part of the AF family .....I would say how long we have been part of the AF family is not the issue. Where do we best serve America? The US Coast Guard was part of the US Dept of the Tres from 1790 to 1968, a very long time. But when the US DOT was stood up they were moved because it was a better fit....then after 9/11 they were moved to HLS because it was a better fit for their changing mission.

We need to always make our choices from the POV, whats best for America not whats best for ME or my group.

At this point I have seen nothing that says America would be better served with us in DOT or HLS, BUT my objection is most member dismiss the idea without even considering it because of the "thats what we've always done" additude.  Again focus on this mission and the country.

[Dragoon]

What makes moving hard is that our missions are all over the place.

If finding lost planes was our stock in trade, DOT makes for a pretty good fit.

If disaster relief was most important, then FEMA (HLS) works out well.  And if FEMA ends up playing a bigger role in SAR, even better.

But a military cadet program works best when aligned under a military service.  So unless CAP was somehow merged with CGAUX so that our cadets became CG cadets instead....USAF seems the best fit.

There always seems to be tension between CP and Ops.

[Tubacap]

If it makes anyone feel better.  A decent amount of people want FEMA moved out of DHS, so that it can more efficiently funciton.

[John Bryan]

IIRC before HLS I think FEMA was an independent federal agency.

(Also I was wrong about PHS....they are limited to 1% flag officers.....right now there are about 50 active duty PHS ADM's.)

[mikeylikey]

^ 50 Flag Officers for such a small organization.  That is amazing.

[ddelaney103]

^ 50 Flag Officers for such a small organization.  That is amazing.

Why?  They're all officers, mostly doctors and often they're inserted into a civilian/military chain of command pretty far up the ladder.

[mikeylikey]

^ 50 Flag Officers for such a small organization.  That is amazing.

Why?  They're all officers, mostly doctors and often they're inserted into a civilian/military chain of command pretty far up the ladder.

As a tax payer.....we are paying a huge amount of money for each Admiral.  Why are there so many?  Can't a lower ranking doctor do the same job as an Admiral?  Also, most of the Uniformed Services (military) have their own Doctors.  (Coast Guard uses PHS doctors right?)  So, why does the PHS even exist?  Many of the billets can be filled by Contract Doctors from what I read on the PHS job site.  Seriously.....why are we paying for PHS Doctors in Federal Prisons when we could easily have a civilian Doctor there instead. 

[John Bryan]

^ 50 Flag Officers for such a small organization.  That is amazing.

Why?  They're all officers, mostly doctors and often they're inserted into a civilian/military chain of command pretty far up the ladder.

As a tax payer.....we are paying a huge amount of money for each Admiral.  Why are there so many?  Can't a lower ranking doctor do the same job as an Admiral?  Also, most of the Uniformed Services (military) have their own Doctors.  (Coast Guard uses PHS doctors right?)  So, why does the PHS even exist?  Many of the billets can be filled by Contract Doctors from what I read on the PHS job site.  Seriously.....why are we paying for PHS Doctors in Federal Prisons when we could easily have a civilian Doctor there instead. 

Some people ask the same thing about CAP.....why not have the state police look for lost planes.....etc, etc, etc.....

As for the PHS flag officers most of them are in senior positions with the CDC, FDA or other agencies....so their GS pay level would be about the same or more. You won't find a RADM seeing patients in a federal prision or on in an indian hospital.

As for wasted money, it's not.....In fact GS paid nurses in federal prisions make more then the PHS officers but the officers get other things like veterans benifits.

As for other services having docs....yes they do...but PHS serves with in a lot of cases.....the PHS helps staff the USNS Mercy and have officer who have served in Iraq helping to rebuild that nations health care system. There web site does a better job explaining it then me....

www.usphs.gov

NOAA and PHS serve us well.....just because most people don't understand their mission and role doesn't mean they are a waste.

[RogueLeader]

and this has what bearing on CAP?

[mikeylikey]

^ Nothing whatsover.  I promise I am trying to curb my wild and wondrous rants and drifts.  It is taking longer to break the habit! 

^ Yeah....sorry again!   :angel:

[John Bryan]

and this has what bearing on CAP?

I think we got off on this because we were talking about moving CAP. To that end posters have discussed other agencies and how CAP might fit. We have also talked about examples of other federal agencies that have moved to better serve the country. Some also think CAP could learn a lot from the 7 uniformed services...esp NOAA and PHS because like us they are not armed or military.  Of course in reviewing this the fact we are not a government agency or uniformed service but rather cap INC, I guess it has nothing to do with CAP, sorry

[JayT]

and this has what bearing on CAP?

I think we got off on this because we were talking about moving CAP. To that end posters have discussed other agencies and how CAP might fit. We have also talked about examples of other federal agencies that have moved to better serve the country. Some also think CAP could learn a lot from the 7 uniformed services...esp NOAA and PHS because like us they are not armed or military.  Of course in reviewing this the fact we are not a government agency or uniformed service but rather cap INC, I guess it has nothing to do with CAP, sorry

We are a uniformed service, and a government agency when we need to be. (And yes, I do understand that you were being sarcastic.)

Just because we don't get to call ourselves the US Air Force Auxiliary all the time doesn't mean we should be bitter about the fact.

[John Bryan]

and this has what bearing on CAP?

I think we got off on this because we were talking about moving CAP. To that end posters have discussed other agencies and how CAP might fit. We have also talked about examples of other federal agencies that have moved to better serve the country. Some also think CAP could learn a lot from the 7 uniformed services...esp NOAA and PHS because like us they are not armed or military.  Of course in reviewing this the fact we are not a government agency or uniformed service but rather cap INC, I guess it has nothing to do with CAP, sorry

We are a uniformed service, and a government agency when we need to be. (And yes, I do understand that you were being sarcastic.)

Just because we don't get to call ourselves the US Air Force Auxiliary all the time doesn't mean we should be bitter about the fact.

I was being a little sarcastic....but not bitter. I think one of the issues maybe missed is in your statement. The issue is not if CAP would be better in the AF / DOD or another agency like DOT. The issue is what is CAP and where do we belong? I wish we were a federal agency but we are not. I wish we were part of the AF or another part of government , but we are not. We are not a uniformed service. How we feel about CAP and our service does not change the fact that we are "Civil Air Patrol INC" and at best we are sometimes a tool of the AF or the government. We are a "private organization" supported with some tax payer funds.....there are a lot of groups that do get tax dollars.

[JayT]

Well, in all honestly, I do wish  we were back to full time Auxiliary status. I wish we would conform to the British ATC model, and have Squadron Commanders and above hold some sort of volunteer comission. Etc Etc.

[mynetdude]

Well, in all honestly, I do wish  we were back to full time Auxiliary status. I wish we would conform to the British ATC model, and have Squadron Commanders and above hold some sort of volunteer comission. Etc Etc.

Well if doing so would benefit CAP in getting more missions and funding as well as training and other support then I'd be all for it. However I'm not knowledgable in this area to say that it would be or wouldn't be a benefit I'm just saying if it did give us a plus then I'd be rooting for it.

[FW]

Well, in all honestly, I do wish  we were back to full time Auxiliary status. I wish we would conform to the British ATC model, and have Squadron Commanders and above hold some sort of volunteer commission. Etc Etc.

In the 31 years I've been a member of CAP, I've never heard any one in the Air Force leadership call us "The sometimes Auxiliary".  In fact since the legislation of Feb. 2000, we've haven't been closer to the Air Force since the 60's.  We are more involved and have more missions of national scope than ever before.   In many wings, assistance to the corresponding states has grown.  Support for cadet programs are at an all time high and support for our ES program has never been better.  

IMHO, moving to the DoD will not help us improve our status nor our membership growth.
Moving to DHS, won't do much more for us either.  If your want us to forget about "posse comitatus",  go join ICE or DEA or enlist in the USCG; you can serve and get paid. (oh boy)

Just for some added color:  We haven't been a "government agency" since 1946.  We've been a Federally Charted Corporation since 1946 and the auxiliary of the Air Force since 1947.  We are only considered an "instrumentality of the government" when engaged in AFAMs for "liability purposes only".

Now that I got that off my chest, I feel much better.  

[mikeylikey]

^ I do believe we "were closer with the Air Force" when an actual Air Force Officer was the Commander.  I think we were closer, before the law changes of 2000. 

We are the Auxiliary ONLY when it suits the AF.  I fear we will never gain full time AUX status again! 

Moving to DHS may have actually been a good move 6 years ago.  We could still be doing the same things we do now, but with more funding and better inter-agency resourcing.  However, there really is no way to know for sure. 

I fear that CAP may end up being the full time VSAF program instead.  That would be a sad day!

[mynetdude]

Well, in all honestly, I do wish  we were back to full time Auxiliary status. I wish we would conform to the British ATC model, and have Squadron Commanders and above hold some sort of volunteer commission. Etc Etc.

In the 31 years I've been a member of CAP, I've never heard any one in the Air Force leadership call us "The sometimes Auxiliary".  In fact since the legislation of Feb. 2000, we've haven't been closer to the Air Force since the 60's.  We are more involved and have more missions of national scope than ever before.   In many wings, assistance to the corresponding states has grown.  Support for cadet programs are at an all time high and support for our ES program has never been better.  

IMHO, moving to the DoD will not help us improve our status nor our membership growth.
Moving to DHS, won't do much more for us either.  If your want us to forget about "posse comitatus",  go join ICE or DEA or enlist in the USCG; you can serve and get paid. (oh boy)

Just for some added color:  We haven't been a "government agency" since 1946.  We've been a Federally Charted Corporation since 1946 and the auxiliary of the Air Force since 1947.  We are only considered an "instrumentality of the government" when engaged in AFAMs for "liability purposes only".

Now that I got that off my chest, I feel much better.  

I remember reading about how legislative made way tor CAP support in the wake of 9/11 as CAP did do its share during 9/11.  So after all we were helping the USAF and other Federal/State/Local agencies along with it.

It doesn't matter where we go, DoD, DHLS, DOT we would still be providing support but with limitations from our affiliations if any for legal reasons. So if where we are now allows us maximum customer base to support then moving isn't a bad idea however any move or no move helps CAP in every way then that is a good thing not necessarily a bad thing.

Now if you want to forget about "posse comitatus" you can rest assured that you'd have to set aside being being weak and old (because they won't take none of that) and I don't mean to offend I don't consider anyone weak (if you recall I did make a post about people with disabilities serving in CAP) and even then those people who have one arm can't join the USCG or DEA whatever (I have never seen/heard of ICE before).

There are a lot of disabled people who are very well capable of serving our country, they can't join the armed forces for legal/liability/safety reasons and yet they can join CAP to serve because this seems to be the only real way they can and be close enough to the US armed forces as a civilian. Unfortunately they have to volunteer to do it, its the only way AFAIK. (I have heard of deaf cops before, its rare though).

[mynetdude]

^ I do believe we "were closer with the Air Force" when an actual Air Force Officer was the Commander.  I think we were closer, before the law changes of 2000. 

We are the Auxiliary ONLY when it suits the AF.  I fear we will never gain full time AUX status again! 

Moving to DHS may have actually been a good move 6 years ago.  We could still be doing the same things we do now, but with more funding and better inter-agency resourcing.  However, there really is no way to know for sure. 

I fear that CAP may end up being the full time VSAF program instead.  That would be a sad day!

I like your style, the only way to know for sure if moving to DHS is/was good is to TRY it and see... if they don't like it... move somewhere else until it fits? I guess thats too costly and too teeth grinding.

I kinda like the VSAF idea, but I wouldn't really know if I really like it or not until I had a chance to try it.

What I wish we could do is serve on bases like Chaplains can do and fill temporary non classified roles other than chaplains (CAP is the only nonprofit civilian organization that allows CAP chaplains to serve and get paid in place of base chaplains when they are deployed). But I know the higher ups would have none of that, thats a threat to security.