New Squadron Patch Advice

[Bear Walling]

Hello everyone,

I am the commander of a "reborn" squadron (Squadron that shutdown and I am getting the charter reinstated). And I am designing a patch for the unit kind of as a new beginning sort of thing. I was hoping ya'll could give me some feedback about my designs (attached below).

The first is the full color patch that we will wear with the blues uniform. The second is subdued to be worn with the BDUs. I am still unsure whether or not I want to add SAR or a II behind the squadron name.

Thomas "Bear" Walling, Commander
Eagle Composite Squadron (Reborn)
Morehead, Kentucky  GLR-KY-121

[mikeylikey]

The Eagle looks like it is ready to Kill something!  I like it.  However, I would think about moving the Eagle to the other side of the patch (the colors would then contrast each other, and it would stand out better).

I would also think about whether you really need the charter on the thing.  Personal decision, but I never liked any numbers on CAP patches.

I would not add anything more to the patch itself.  If you add numerals behind anything, it becomes "too busy".

Remember, just my opinions, what really matters is you will have to wear it. 

Did you have a previous unit patch before they went "under"?  Is it similar to or different from the one you made?

[Bear Walling]

The previous unit didnt have a patch. Sadly we weren't that close of a group.

I hope to change that.

[mikeylikey]

^ Good luck to you!  I hope you get an initial good group of people to get things running.  Either way, the patch looks good, I am a dork when it comes to Eagles!  Can't get enough of them.

[davidsinn]

Mind if I jump in on this? Here's my unit's patch. It's not even a week old. Been up to the Wing Commander and back. It's so new in fact that we haven't even looked at production yet so it might change slightly once we get the real thing made.

Per INWG-M39-1Sup I had to come up with a Heraldry :

The Wild Mustang that is bucking to the upper right is a wild and untamable beast; as is our passion and determination to our duty.

The P-51D at the bottom center is one of the most reconizable symbols of WWII and so is a reminder of the birth of Civil Air Patrol.

The TriProp inside the Civil Defense triangle represents the three missions of Civil Air Patrol, namely: Cadet Programs, Emergency Services, and Aerospace Education.

Red reminds us of the blood that was spilled by the earliest sub-hunters.
Blue represents the sky where we perform our duty.
White is the purity of selfless service.
Gold is dedication to duty.
Black is the unknown and reminds us to seek it out and learn always.

Our Motto is Acta non Verba: "Actions not words" which is also the motto of the US Merchant Marine Academy.


Patch and Heraldry by Lt. David Sinn (c) 2007

[pixelwonk]

Having designed unit patches and not a small number of other CAP graphics, I can appreciate the effort you probably put into this, and I commend you for sticking to your wing's heraldry guidelines.
Still though, It's way crowded.  The motto might as well be "eviscero equinum" because the P51 looks like it is going to disembowel the horse.  Gives a new meaning to Vertical Stab.    You can't tell it's a P51 either.

All in all, neither mustang tells anything about your unit, nor do they speak to the motto.  Not sayin they shouldn't be there, but I'd like to see this emblem again once the design elements and the colors have been reworked some.

[jimmydeanno]

Our Motto is Acta non Verba: "Actions not words" which is also the motto of the US Merchant Marine Academy.

As well as the motto of the Langley (AFB) Composite Squadron in Virginia MER-VA-025, chartered in 1957.  Not sure when they adopted the motto though.

[brasda91]

I can't find any guidance in the reg's on wear of squadron patches on blues.  You may want to look through the reg's and ensure squadron patches are authorized on blues.  We have a squadron patch that we only wear on our bdu's.

Welcome back!

[RiverAux]

Usually you see it as "Deeds not words" and it is a very common motto.  Personally, I think it is out of place for us to put AF aircraft on our patches.  After all, CAP never flew P-51s.  Why not the plucky little C-182?

[Eclipse]

I can't find any guidance in the reg's on wear of squadron patches on blues.  You may want to look through the reg's and ensure squadron patches are authorized on blues.  We have a squadron patch that we only wear on our bdu's.

There are currently no patches authorized on the blues, squadron or otherwise.  Previous to this, only the wing patch was authorized.

[Eclipse]

I like the patch in general, however I would suggest the text be on lower scrolls if you stay with the shield and
the rockers on a disc.

If I can I will mock it up later today.

[alamrcn]

KY-121, Eagle Composite Squadron emblem -

First off, a personal thank you for NOT using a phoenix to represent the unit's rebirth. While attractive, it's just way overdone.

It has already been said here or somewhere to minimize the amount of text in the emblem's field, and I agree to moving everything to a lower scroll - "Eagle Comp Sqdn 121" or something. Don't feel a need to fill the emblem's field, but the tri-prop on the blue background in place of the unit's name would work swell.

Leaving only "121" on the bottom of the field would look Ok, but certainly get the unit's name out of there. If only two words are used to describe the unit, "Eagle Squadron" would be better than "Eagle Composite" which doesn't describe what echelon the unit is. The complete name in full or abbreviated in the banner would be optimal.


The other emblem design posted...

It's way crowded.

There are only three features, and although all are very bold, I wouldn't say the field is crowded... Full, maybe.

You can't tell it's a P51 either.

Agree. Thee are some characteristics needed to distinguish the aircraft's silhouette as a P-51, as apposed to Beech Cherokee or other low-wing aircraft. However, more details on the plane might lead to needing more details on the horse also.

neither mustang tells anything about your unit, nor do they speak to the motto.

The blazon is what explains the emblem's symbols, so the images themselves don't have to be literal. They've described what the symbols mean quite well. Not every unit's location has something distinct and appropriate to put on their emblem, so I think they've made a reasonable enough case to use what they've got. I suppose SOME correlation between the motto (since it is displayed) and the emblem's other contents would be nice if possible.

-Ace

[Bear Walling]

I am doing this on paint, so excuse the poor quality.

I still welcome anyone who would like to give my patch design a try. I'm not very original in my design. Plus, I hate to use the shield since it is more for group or wing use... But anyway...

Here's a version with the prop in place of the squadron name.

[Eclipse]

2 first-pass drafts.

Note, the scrolls are bad because its a bear to get them perfect and I wouldn't want to spend the time
until the verbiage was final.





The motto is "let it endure forever".

I thought it would be cool to put a star where the unit is, but couldn't find anything on 121.

[Bear Walling]

Yeah, your a little off with the red star... Morehead is about a half inch to the right. Other than that, those look awesome! what program do you use to make those? And where can I download it? I really like the motto too!

[Eclipse]

Yeah, your a little off with the red star... Morehead is about a half inch to the left. Other than that, those look awesome! what program do you use to make those? And where can I download it?

Is that where you guys are Morehead?  I can move the star.

Its called Photoshop and you can download it from Adobe for about $600.   

If you like the direction, PM me and we can connect via email.  I'm working on another one right now and my SUI, so I might not be able to dedicate time today beyond the above, but this doesn't usually take that long.
Once done you guys can have the layers and also we can render it into grayscale B&W, etc.

[Bear Walling]

Yes, we will be in Morehead.

You probably won't find anything on us, the old unit charter lapsed probably four years ago. The new charter will be reinstated when I return home from Iraq in August.

[alamrcn]

The motto is "let it endure forever".

Now that's an appropriate motto, nice choice!

The disk patch looks GREAT, very slick and modern! Get "Squadron" (or variant) in there, maybe the "121" as well, but no need for "KY" since the map kinda seals the deal.

BTW, is "Eagle" as the name set in stone? I know that National would prefer "Morehead Composite Squadron" as the chartered tittle, but a moniker such as "Eagle" is the members call - thereby represented by Beeker.

The triangle and tri-prop might be just filling space now, but it would still be nice to have it worked in there somewhere if possible - it's what would signify it as a CAP patch. Below the state map maybe?


-Ace

[Eclipse]

We could maybe use the prop and shield on the map instead of a star...

[Bear Walling]

Eagle was the name of the original squadron

[Eclipse]

Two more tweaks, one with the star moving, one with the prop shield (both where my map says Morehead is).

[BlueLakes1]

Having designed unit patches and not a small number of other CAP graphics, I can appreciate the effort you probably put into this, and I commend you for sticking to your wing's heraldry guidelines.
Still though, It's way crowded.  The motto might as well be "eviscero equinum" because the P51 looks like it is going to disembowel the horse.  Gives a new meaning to Vertical Stab.    You can't tell it's a P51 either.

All in all, neither mustang tells anything about your unit, nor do they speak to the motto.  Not sayin they shouldn't be there, but I'd like to see this emblem again once the design elements and the colors have been reworked some.

Well, and if you're trying to stick with the "Air Force Way", you wouldn't want to depict a specific type of aircraft anyway, be it a P-51, a T-34, or a C-182.

[Bear Walling]

Morehead is down, just a hair....

Looks great otherwise!!! Still love the motto!

I downloaded Photoshop CS3 from Adobe... I can't figure out how to use the dang thing.

Again, thanks so much.

[Eclipse]

Morehead is down, just a hair....

Looks great otherwise!!! Still love the motto!

I downloaded Photoshop CS3 from Adobe... I can't figure out how to use the dang thing.

Again, thanks so much.

Roger on moving the marker - star, prop or other?

As far as Photoshop, it took me about a year while supporting a graphics design / web house to get fairly proficient with it, and then about 2-3 years of use from there, and I'm still just an advanced beginner.

If you take the time, you won't be sorry.

[Bear Walling]

You wouldn't think something so simple would be such a hard decision...

I think I like the prop better.

Other than that it's perfect! I appologize for being such a "stitch nazi".

Any chance I can get you to make a subdued one for me? You dont have too... Just asking. I am already in your debt.

[Eclipse]

Once we finalize the design, chaning the colors to the subdued equivalents is no problem.

[Bear Walling]

ALLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLRIGHTY THEN   

[tdavidson]

I thought that there was no wear of patches on blues or is that just a wing decision? Because everywhere I've been I have never seen any patches on the blues uniform maybe just some clarification on that would be awesome.

P.S. my first post   ; D

[brasda91]

I thought that there was no wear of patches on blues or is that just a wing decision? Because everywhere I've been I have never seen any patches on the blues uniform maybe just some clarification on that would be awesome.

P.S. my first post   ; D

You are correct

Removal of Wing/Region/National Patch. Effective 15 March 2006, Wing/Region/National patches are no longer worn on the AF-style light blue shirt/blouse
or any AF-style blue outer garments (light weight jacket, pullover sweater, all weather coat, etc.) Wing/Region/National patches are now optional on BDUs, flight suits, CAP field and utility uniforms. Wing patches must be removed from AF-style garments by 1 August 2006

[Pylon]

P.S. my first post   ; D

...and welcome! 

[BuckeyeDEJ]

Actually, among other things, the AF policy on unit emblems (they're not called "patches" except casually) is that:
-- they don't use existing emblems, or the parts thereof;
-- they don't depict "games of chance," and
-- they don't depict realistic aircraft.
AF unit emblems should also include Air Force blue and gold, incidentally.

CAP policy on abbreviating units is to say "Cadet Sq," "Comp Sq" or "Sr Sq." So on the Eagle emblem, that bottom rocker should say "Eagle Comp Sq."

All that said, the version of the Eagle emblem with the star on the map is more appropriate.

I have a sneaking suspicion the eagle's head was lifted from somewhere else? (I'm thinking the NFL for some reason.)

[Eclipse]

CAP policy on abbreviating units is to say "Cadet Sq," "Comp Sq" or "Sr Sq." So on the Eagle emblem, that bottom rocker should say "Eagle Comp Sq."

Cite please...

I have a sneaking suspicion the eagle's head was lifted from somewhere else? (I'm thinking the NFL for some reason.)

He's already said exactly where it came from.

[alamrcn]

-- they don't depict "games of chance," and
-- they don't depict realistic aircraft.

Ooops! OOOPS!! 

The other two guidlines mentioned - parts of existing emblems and blue/gold colors - are broken VERY frequently by USAF units. At least this patch is running at 50%, heh, although that shade of blue is questionable...

-Ace

[Bear Walling]

I have a sneaking suspicion the eagle's head was lifted from somewhere else? (I'm thinking the NFL for some reason.)

"Beaker" the Eagle is used with permission from Morehead State University Athletic Department.

[BuckeyeDEJ]

CAP policy on abbreviating units is to say "Cadet Sq," "Comp Sq" or "Sr Sq." So on the Eagle emblem, that bottom rocker should say "Eagle Comp Sq."

Cite please...

First reference I can find (gotta shoot the slow ducks) is CAPR 900-2, under squadron flags: "if abbreviations are required to shorten the name, only the following standard abbreviations for type of unit will be used: Comp Sq, Cdt Sq, Sr Sq, Gp." The "Sq" and "Gp" abbreviations are customary in the Air Force, if I'm not mistaken.

Since we're in the mood for citations, refer to AFI 84-105 to see exactly what I'm talking about. There are, indeed, Air Force squadrons that don't use the blue and gold, but the patch posted on this thread would in no way have been approved by the Air Force Historical Research Agency.

For a guide to Air Force heraldry, see http://www.afhra.af.mil/heraldry/guide.asp

One little side note while I'm throwing stuff out: Groups CAN use the shield instead of the disc, but only if they are a direct reporting unit. (Groups that report to a wing use the disc.) The shield shape identifies a flag unit, and groups aren't flag units unless they're direct reports.

As to where the eagle comes from, I stand corrected -- Mr. Walling, thanks for the note.

[Eclipse]

In this case there is no need for an abbreviation, as every unit in CAP that is not a flight or a group is a squadron.  If they were a flight, that would be a different story, and an argument could be made for the distinction to be indicated, but its still certainly not required, also, this is not a flag, which is what the reg quoted is applicable to.  You can infer what you like, but I don't see that as a standard.

As to the comment about Groups, I'm not sure where that is coming from, because the AFHRA and the very AFI you cite is pretty clear to the contrary.

This is the actual Heraldry site: http://afhra.maxwell.af.mil/heraldry/heraldry.html
AFI 84-105: http://www.e-publishing.af.mil/shared/media/epubs/AFI84-105.pdf
AFI 38-101: http://www.e-publishing.af.mil/shared/media/epubs/AFI38-101.pdf

The emblem design for units must be on a circular shaped shield or disc, as illustrated in Figure 7 (See AFI 84-105, paragraph 3.4). Units with emblems on discs include named and numbered squadrons, numbered flights, and other USAF organizations that have no headquarters component.

Those organizations in the USAF having headquarters are flag bearing organizations, known as establishments, such as groups, wings, and major commands (MAJCOM). Air Force Instruction 84-105, paragraph 3.3. specifies that a USAF flag-bearing organization should display its coat of arms (i.e., emblem design) on a modified heater-shaped shield, as shown in Figure 8

2.2.7. Group. A level of command between wings and squadrons. Groups generally bring together multiple squadrons or other lower echelon units to provide a broader capability. For instance, a mission support group pulls together several squadrons in a variety of areas to provide a full spectrum mission support capability. A group is generally a tactical echelon without significant staff support. A group usually has two or more subordinate units.

2.2.7.1. Dependent Group. A dependent group is a mission, maintenance, mission support, medical, or large functional unit (e.g., communications) that encompasses a number of related squadrons to provide the specified capability to a parent wing. Such groups may possess small supporting staff elements, such as standardization and evaluation or quality control, that are organized as sections.

2.2.7.2. Independent Group. An independent group has the same functions and responsibilities as a like-type wing but its scope and size do not warrant wing-level designation and associated overhead costs.

CAP Groups fall squarely within the 2.2.7 definition, (and pretty close to 2.2.7.1 within what CAP is/ does), and there is no indication anywhere that a "Group" must be a direct-reporting command to be considered a "flag unit".

MFD - my continued apologies for not getting your deal completed, I've had some things come up, CAP and otherwise, but you're still high on my list.

[Bear Walling]

Thats alright, work before pleasure. Or in this case, work before designing. Don't worry about it bro, I've got all the time in the world.

[BuckeyeDEJ]

Eclipse, whoever you are -- I stand corrected, though you're swatting mosquitoes with sheets of plywood now.