CAP bus

[SSgt Rudin]

So tonight at our post squadron meeting, meeting over dinner, we some how got on the topic of "we need a bus." Aside from the logistical nightmare, lets say we some how got a bus donated to our squadron, got it painted a pretty white, put all the necessary stickers and stuff on it. Is it possible for Group, Wing, Region, NHQ to come in and "relocate" it?

[♠SARKID♠]

Call greyhound, see if they would be willing to donate a bus thats near decommissioning status.  Are you talking ES mobile command post?  Or recruiting station?

[jeders]

So tonight at our post squadron meeting, meeting over dinner, we some how got on the topic of "we need a bus." Aside from the logistical nightmare, lets say we some how got a bus donated to our squadron, got it painted a pretty white, put all the necessary stickers and stuff on it. Is it possible for Group, Wing, Region, NHQ to come in and "relocate" it?

Yes they can. The only way to prevent that is to have that bus donated to a third party and then that third party allows you exclusive rights to use it.

[SSgt Rudin]

Call greyhound, see if they would be willing to donate a bus thats near decommissioning status.  Are you talking ES mobile command post?  Or recruiting station?

More of a "we have 25 cadets that we need to move from point A to B," but if lets say it was a mobile command post with a bunch of seats, would that make a difference?

[SSgt Rudin]

So tonight at our post squadron meeting, meeting over dinner, we some how got on the topic of "we need a bus." Aside from the logistical nightmare, lets say we some how got a bus donated to our squadron, got it painted a pretty white, put all the necessary stickers and stuff on it. Is it possible for Group, Wing, Region, NHQ to come in and "relocate" it?

Yes they can. The only way to prevent that is to have that bus donated to a third party and then that third party allows you exclusive rights to use it.

Would the donator still get the same tax write off? Or better yet, do they get one in the first place? Also with this way what happens in regards to registration and associated fees?

[SJFedor]

The operators of the bus would probably need to hold a CDL (check w/ your state) if it can carry more then X amount of people. As well, I doubt CAP's auto insurance carrier would underwrite a bus, leaving the individual drivers to be insured on it. It makes me uneasy sometimes to just drive a 12 pax full of cadets, I can't imagine driving a bus.

Plus, maintenance and fuel would cost you out the wazoo.

[SarDragon]

d. Types of vehicles not permitted to be owned by CAP will be determined by NHQ. Vehicles not permitted to be owned by CAP include, but are not limited to:
1) Buses
2) Water trailers
3) Humvees
4) Deuce and half (2 1/2 ton vehicles or larger)
5) Boats
6) ATVs

[SSgt Rudin]

The operators of the bus would probably need to hold a CDL (check w/ your state) if it can carry more then X amount of people. As well, I doubt CAP's auto insurance carrier would underwrite a bus, leaving the individual drivers to be insured on it. It makes me uneasy sometimes to just drive a 12 pax full of cadets, I can't imagine driving a bus.

Plus, maintenance and fuel would cost you out the wazoo.

if you think about it you would use more gas if you had 30 cadets with gear to move by van, you would probably need 4 vans. However, we were thinking something like an old "Avis" type air port shuttle , not an all out school bus or the like, so thats only like 20 cadets + driver.

d. Types of vehicles not permitted to be owned by CAP will be determined by NHQ. Vehicles not permitted to be owned by CAP include, but are not limited to:
1) Buses
2) Water trailers
3) Humvees
4) Deuce and half (2 1/2 ton vehicles or larger)
5) Boats
6) ATVs

Well, darn. what about a big trailer with a bunch of seats in it? kidding...

[♠SARKID♠]

Like Rudin said, if you really really want one, have it owned by a non-profit or sister organization.  A few squadrons around here do that.  Theres one in the area that has a hovercraft owned by a non profit org.  Even our squadron's hangar is under Youth and Aviation.

[SSgt Rudin]

Like Rudin said, if you really really want one, have it owned by a non-profit or sister organization.  A few squadrons around here do that.  Theres one in the area that has a hovercraft owned by a non profit org.  Even our squadron's hangar is under Youth and Aviation.

Just remembered our squadron is also a boy scout troop. Don't ask, I don't know, I stopped listening after 10 minutes when they tried to explain it.

[♠SARKID♠]

^Yeah, thats that whole dual charter thing.  Not a big fan of the idea myself, even though I was a highly active Boy Scout for my whole life (Life rank, OA ordeal, SPL for god knows how long)

[/drift]

[Grumpy]

Several years ago we had a bus full of cadets involved in an accident up near Camarillo, CA.  I believe there was a fatality involved, not sure though, and CAP hasn't allowed us to use busses since.

[Grumpy]

Like Rudin said, if you really really want one, have it owned by a non-profit or sister organization.  A few squadrons around here do that.  Theres one in the area that has a hovercraft owned by a non profit org.  Even our squadron's hangar is under Youth and Aviation.

Just remembered our squadron is also a boy scout troop. Don't ask, I don't know, I stopped listening after 10 minutes when they tried to explain it.

Our squadron works like that.  It's part of the Scout's Venturing program.  For eleven bucks a year each cadet gets $25,000 in medical insurance, the adults are covered for liability and we get full use of scout camps and equipment.  It comes in handy when you've got some training coming up on the Marine Corps base and they cancel on you at the last minute due to a mobilization.

[Pylon]

The bus and other vehicles being prohibited is because CAP owned vehicles use CAP's vehicle insurance policy.  Vehicles like buses that can transport large numbers of passengers drive up the cost of insurance.

[Eclipse]

Like Rudin said, if you really really want one, have it owned by a non-profit or sister organization.  A few squadrons around here do that.  Theres one in the area that has a hovercraft owned by a non profit org.  Even our squadron's hangar is under Youth and Aviation.

Just remembered our squadron is also a boy scout troop. Don't ask, I don't know, I stopped listening after 10 minutes when they tried to explain it.

Dual-chartered CAP units require CAP be the "host" unit and all regulations apply to CAP and most to the "guest" BSA unit.

The best I can tell, the dual-charter concept is basically a way for CAP to get access to BSA facilities, while allowing for sharing meeting spaces,etc.

As to the bus, you'd be better off with two 12/15 packs, and if you really have a transport need that would justify a bus, could likely get 2 vans from NHQ.

[PHall]

Several years ago we had a bus full of cadets involved in an accident up near Camarillo, CA.  I believe there was a fatality involved, not sure though, and CAP hasn't allowed us to use busses since.

You remember wrong.

There were no fatalities. There were some serious injuries, one that resulted in a permanent disability.

It was an Air Force bus being driven by a licenced and "qualified" CAP member.

They had brake failure on a mountain road due to driver error (had never driven with air brakes before) and brake system failure due to lack of maintenance by the Air Force. (Per the CHP accident report.)

The driver actually did save everybodies life by driving into the side of the mountain causing the bus to roll over on it's side vs. going off the other side of the road over a 300 foot cliff.

CAP ended up paying out several million dollars for this accident.

And now you know why we can't have anything larger then a 15 pax van.

[Grumpy]

Thanks for setting me straight Phil,

Like I said, I wasn't sure if there were fatalities or not.  The result was the same, no more buses.

[mikeylikey]

So was the "qualified" CAP member also an Air Force guy?  For years, as far back as I can remember, AF buses were never allowed to be driven by anyone but AF personnel. 

I would imagine people lost their jobs over that.  I am glad to hear it was not a fatal accident.

I am just surprised to hear that is the reason CAP can't own buses.

[afgeo4]

I distinctly remember a 2.5 ton truck with CAP decals on the sides being in a photo of Hawk Mountain. Anyone care to share how that happened if regs state specifically that deuce and halfs aren't authorized?

Was that a member owned vehicle? Can the bus be that?

Also... why paint the bus white? White paint isn't a requirement for CAP vehicles. It just happens to be a popular color for fleet purchases (easy to resell).

Some CAP vans are blue and some are gray.

[afgeo4]

So was the "qualified" CAP member also an Air Force guy?  For years, as far back as I can remember, AF buses were never allowed to be driven by anyone but AF personnel. 

I would imagine people lost their jobs over that.  I am glad to hear it was not a fatal accident.

I am just surprised to hear that is the reason CAP can't own buses.

After a humvee accident a few years ago, the military placed restrictions on all military vehicles allowing only military authorized personnel to drive them.

[Ned]

Before the rule changes, I belonged to several units that had buses.

(One had been screened from a certain Federal agency and had "Atomic Energy Commission" in big letters on the side for over two years before it was finally painted in CAP colors.)

And without exception, the busses were huge maintains problems.

There are few things that can go wrong on a 44 pax bus that are not very expensive to fix.  Especially for a squadron with 30-40 dues-paying members.

And in all honesty, the buses were not used more that once a month in a busy year.

So mostly, they just sat around and degraded.

And old poorly maintained, seldom-used buses are just a tragedy waiting to happen.

Enjoy the vans.  They're better and far safer for the troops and for CAP, Inc.

Ned Lee
DCP, PCR

[fyrfitrmedic]

I distinctly remember a 2.5 ton truck with CAP decals on the sides being in a photo of Hawk Mountain. Anyone care to share how that happened if regs state specifically that deuce and halfs aren't authorized?

How old was the picture?

WIWAC, a number of PAWG units had deuce and a half trucks and all manner of surplus vehicles. My home unit had two of 'em as well as a cargo trailer.

IIRC, the rule went into effect late 80s-early 90s or so re: such vehicles.

[NIN]

Thanks for setting me straight Phil,

Like I said, I wasn't sure if there were fatalities or not.  The result was the same, no more buses.

In my years in CAP, I've always heard these apocryphal stories as they relate to certain local or national rules or regs.

"Cadets can't drive themselves to CAP activities, 'cuz about 20 years ago, a car load of cadets on the way to a CAC meeting slammed in to a bridge abutment and all of 'em died..."

I always wonder where these old saws come from.

I imagined the bus thing was similar.  One of those "told from member to member" stories that has a grain of truth to start and gets much, much better in the telling.

(Mind you, I had a military bus license, both 24 & 44 pax, just so I could drive for CAP.  Thankfully, my guard unit somehow missed the bus endorsement on my license, otherwise I'd be the bus-driving victim every time we went to the range.  But for CAP,  I'd switch into my ARNG uniform when it was time to "make like a bus driver," just like the other guys we had who were either RAP NCOs or "two-hatters" like me.  Me thinks that your average LO/State Director today would have a serious cow over that.  And rightly so.)

 

[flyguy06]

Like Rudin said, if you really really want one, have it owned by a non-profit or sister organization.  A few squadrons around here do that.  Theres one in the area that has a hovercraft owned by a non profit org.  Even our squadron's hangar is under Youth and Aviation.

Just remembered our squadron is also a boy scout troop. Don't ask, I don't know, I stopped listening after 10 minutes when they tried to explain it.

If you look in CAPR 52-16 at the last chapter, it explains how CAP and the BSA can have joint charters. It happens a lot with Aviation Explorers. But to your original question. Major assets like buildings and vehicles can only be accepted by CAP Corporate officers. the Wing Commander is the Vorporate Officer repesenting the Wing so he is the lowesr echelon that can accept these things on behalf of CAP. But if he is a good guy, and he knows this was donated specifically to your unit, I doubt he wil move it someplace else. He will probably assign it to your unit.

[PHall]

So was the "qualified" CAP member also an Air Force guy?  For years, as far back as I can remember, AF buses were never allowed to be driven by anyone but AF personnel. 

I would imagine people lost their jobs over that.  I am glad to hear it was not a fatal accident.

I am just surprised to hear that is the reason CAP can't own buses.

The driver was not an Air Force guy. He had been checked out by the base motor pool folks to drive a bus.

Back when this accident happened, some Air Force, Air Force Reserve, Air National Guard units would allow CAP to use their vehicles if the drivers completed the required training.
This particular bus was assigned to an Air Force Reserve unit and usually was used on the flight line.

The practice of loaning vehicles to CAP was immediately halted as a result of this accident.

[Slim]

I distinctly remember a 2.5 ton truck with CAP decals on the sides being in a photo of Hawk Mountain. Anyone care to share how that happened if regs state specifically that deuce and halfs aren't authorized?

How old was the picture?

WIWAC, a number of PAWG units had deuce and a half trucks and all manner of surplus vehicles. My home unit had two of 'em as well as a cargo trailer.

IIRC, the rule went into effect late 80s-early 90s or so re: such vehicles.

I also remember a rolling junkyard of DRMO castoffs: Pickups, M-880s, deuce and a halfs, a sedan or two, and the rolling deathtraps buses.

Nin, do you remember if the old Gp XII vehicles were corporate or privately owned (I'm talking about the jeep and the weapons carrier)?  Those went away right before my time, and I don't remember the full story on them.

Had a squadron commander BITD who had been the wing transpo officer at one time.  He had acquired 3-4 disassembled, crated Willy's jeeps.  Went through the trouble of putting them together, then had to dispose of them.  He ended up with one that we used as a ground team vehicle at a practice SAR once.

[Eagle400]

It was an Air Force bus being driven by a licenced and "qualified" CAP member.

To be precise, it was a bus owned and operated by the 146th Airlift Wing of the California Air National Guard at Channel Islands Air National Guard Station in Port Hueneme, CA. 

And now you know why we can't have anything larger then a 15 pax van.

And wouldn't you know that years later, the same CAP squadron that was responsible for this particular incident got a hold of a deuce-and-a-half truck from a nearby Navy base courtesy of one of the CAP officers who also happened to be an officer in the Naval Reserve (and former Spaatz Cadet!)   . 

They used it for transporting cadets and even in recruiting activities such as airshows and parades.  They eventually lost the deuce-and-a-half about a year or so after they got it.   Not sure if anyone got punished, but the officer who got the deuce-and-a-half for them is still there.

I guess some folks never learn.         

[NIN]

A couple years back I remember reading a website about how some insurance company was underwriting a program to allow churches to purchase "mini-buses" (like the airport shuttle buses) versus the 12- and 15-passenger vans.

(Ah, took a bit to find.. I think this is the link: https://www.guideone.com/SafetyResources/Churches/collinsbus.htm)

and this : http://www.midwesttransit.com/Church/5Myths.asp

While I realize that a "14-25 pax church bus" style vehicle is not as "sexy" as a van or a *real bus*, it may at some point get down to insurance coverage. If our insurers decide that they can't cover us in a cost effective way, we may need to go this way for personnel transport.

Honestly? My unit could use a 25-pax bus in a heartbeat.  As it stands we wind up taking 2 vans to a lot of activities.  A 25-pax and a 12-pax van would be ideal for us.

Even a regular bus has issues: http://www.abc3340.com/news/stories/0308/502532.html

I'm leery every time I drive one of our 12-pax.  We conduct convoy briefings, actions on, have a comm plan, put co-drivers in every vehicle (not just "the highest ranking guy gets the front seat") and work on transportation plans that get us there and back with a minimum of risk.  So it takes us longer to get somplace. Big deal.  We all get there, and we all get back.

[PhoenixRisen]

The bus and other vehicles being prohibited is because CAP owned vehicles use CAP's vehicle insurance policy.  Vehicles like buses that can transport large numbers of passengers drive up the cost of insurance.

Why would Humvee's be under the no-go list for CAP vehicles?

[arajca]

The bus and other vehicles being prohibited is because CAP owned vehicles use CAP's vehicle insurance policy.  Vehicles like buses that can transport large numbers of passengers drive up the cost of insurance.

Why would Humvee's be under the no-go list for CAP vehicles?

They do not comply with federal motor vehicle safety standards.

[badger bob]

Remember
Maintainance of the CAP Vehicle fleet and Airplane fleet use USAF appropriated funds. Additions of airplanes or vehicles - even gifts or donations- require a recommendation by CAP-NHQ-Logistics and approval by CAP-USAF.

Even the wing king can not accept a donation of a vehicle without approval from NHQ and CAP-USAF

[PHall]

It was an Air Force bus being driven by a licenced and "qualified" CAP member.

To be precise, it was a bus owned and operated by the 146th Airlift Wing of the California Air National Guard at Channel Islands Air National Guard Station in Port Hueneme, CA. 

And now you know why we can't have anything larger then a 15 pax van.

And wouldn't you know that years later, the same CAP squadron that was responsible for this particular incident got a hold of a deuce-and-a-half truck from a nearby Navy base courtesy of one of the CAP officers who also happened to be an officer in the Naval Reserve (and former Spaatz Cadet!)   . 

They used it for transporting cadets and even in recruiting activities such as airshows and parades.  They eventually lost the deuce-and-a-half about a year or so after they got it.   Not sure if anyone got punished, but the officer who got the deuce-and-a-half for them is still there.

I guess some folks never learn.         

About the bus, you're not even close. Bus belonged to March ARB, CA.
They were enroute to Channel Islands ANGS for an orientation flight in one of their C-130E's.
The personnel involved were from Group 15.

[Eagle400]

About the bus, you're not even close. Bus belonged to 445th Airlift Wing (AFRC), March ARB, CA.
They were enroute to Channel Islands ANGS for an orientation flight in one of their C-130E's.
The personnel involved were from San Gabriel Valley Group 15.

Then the person who told me about the incident was incorrect.  Thank you for clarifying the facts, sir.

However, the story about the deuce-and-a-half is completely accurate.   

[DNall]

some of this is also about placing restrictions on what CAP can take from the DRMO system. We really don't want surplus HMMVWs, buses, or duces. They are all worn to the bone & about to fall apart. Most aren't worth parts & are are close to being dangerous. That's a logistical & financial nightmare.

[CadetProgramGuy]

The operators of the bus would probably need to hold a CDL (check w/ your state) if it can carry more then X amount of people. 

d. Types of vehicles not permitted to be owned by CAP will be determined by NHQ. Vehicles not permitted to be owned by CAP include, but are not limited to:
1) Buses
2) Water trailers
3) Humvees
4) Deuce and half (2 1/2 ton vehicles or larger)
5) Boats
6) ATVs

-- I cut a bunch----

To drive a bus, you would need a CDL-P w/ Air Brake endorsement.

On the other.....You have already figured it out.  Have Someone "own" the bus and let CAP use it.  Don't paint it CAP colors, just paint it.  There ya go.  CAP doesn't own it, and if you get asked on it where it came from, it is donated for travel only.

Hack, last encampment in Iowa, we used the Counterdrug's bus on base with their permission.  Only on base.