Hey look, CAPP 151 is finally getting an update!

[Dragoon]

My read on this is that they are trying to nudge the Pamphlet closer to reality - that is, that many members don't care about the military affiliation and customs.   I get the sense that a large majority of our members would ditch the customs, courtesies, and uniform altogether as long as they got to fly/ground pound/etc.   

If you made jeans and t-shirts an optional uniform, I wonder how many members would have all their uniforms up on Ebay the next day - and how many buyers there would be.

Someone in another thread made a statement that is seemingly appropriate: 

"This isn't the CAP you grew up in as a Cadet". 

From my perspective, we should be as USAF-like as possible for a volunteer organization if we are to be its Auxiliary; and we should resist efforts to water this down.    Anyone who wants to be in a more informal organization can easily find a home in the Boy/Girl Scouts, Red Cross, or elsewhere; there's no need to informalize CAP. 

I think you're right in your observations - WIWAC, most seniors had been through the draft and had at least SOME military service.  Not true anymore. And frankly, we're not likely to make things more military because

1.  We like lots of members (and their dues money).  So we accomodate oodles of golf shirted civilians with little interest in military trappings in order to keep our numbers up and keep the dues money pouring in.  This "civilianizes" the culture.

2.  We have a grade structure that is decidedly "un military" by decoupling rank from authority and responsiblity.  So effectively, we are showing our members that the most critical part of a military culture - rank - doesn't matter here.

3.  We need pilots.  We can't train our own.   Many pilots are individualists, and aren't all that interested in formations, uniforms, snapping to attention, etc.   If we demand too much "military BS" (their term, not mine)  - we'll lose 'em.

4.  We simply don't have enough traning time to teach seniors with no military background how to be very military.  A few hours of Level 1 won't cut it.


You're right, this ain't the CAP I joined as a cadet. And part of me mourns that loss.   But given the constraints above, I'm not sure there's any other way.

[Dragoon]

OK, the base commander analogy didn't work, you're right, Dragoon. But maybe the pilot-in-command analogy works. The PIC's in charge, no matter who's aboard. The PIC will still render proper courtesy to, say, a general or the President, but the senior official will defer authority to the PIC because it's his plane.

It's still not very close.  The Pilot of Air Force One doesn't tell the President how to do his job.   The Pilot of Air Force One doesn't evaluate, counsel or discipline the President.  He just lets him know when to buckle his seat belt.

But a squadron commander DOES tell his staff how to do their job.  He does evalute, counsel or discipline his staff.  It's very different.

In CAP, it's my unit, but if I have a light colonel in it, he gets a salute from me and he'd better understand it's my squadron and he follows policy I set down.

Your job would be easier if he saluted you.  One more tool in the 'ol tool box.  And that's how it works in the USAF we're supposed to be emulating.

In USAF you will not see a Lt Col working on a day-to-day basis as a staff officer for a Captain.  Ever.  If anyone knows of an exception to this, please post the unit, the names of the individuals and the address so we can call and confirm.

It just doesn't happen.

(Incidentally, I currently outrank my squadron CC.  And I used to be his boss.  But I'd be much happer now if we could trade grade.  He needs it - I don't.  I could always take a harder job if I want it back.)

[BuckeyeDEJ]

In CAP, it's my unit, but if I have a light colonel in it, he gets a salute from me and he'd better understand it's my squadron and he follows policy I set down.

Your job would be easier if he saluted you.  One more tool in the 'ol tool box.  And that's how it works in the USAF we're supposed to be emulating.

In USAF you will not see a Lt Col working on a day-to-day basis as a staff officer for a Captain.  Ever.  If anyone knows of an exception to this, please post the unit, the names of the individuals and the address so we can call and confirm.

In the Air Force, a lieutenant colonel doesn't ever salute a major.

In CAP, it should follow the same way, except that rank and authority get convoluted, so there's a extreme disconnect. Still, the answer -- and the safe bet -- is that rank dictates customs and courtesies, though authority may follow different lines. So in CAP, a lieutenant colonel doesn't ever salute a major. The junior always salutes the senior, and the senior returns the salute.

From CAP's Senior Member Development Course:

Salutes are rendered as a courtesy and are required between those officers junior and those senior in rank. If individuals are equal in rank, salutes may be exchanged. There are no set rules regarding how close or how far away a junior must be in order to render a salute. When a junior recognizes a senior, the junior will initiate a salute. There will usually be a verbal greeting exchanged by both members and the senior member will return the salute. This action occurs very quickly, usually within a distance of six paces.

...While CAP members are required to salute military officers of higher rank, military members are not required to salute CAP members, although it is often done as a courtesy.

The salute is based on rank and grade, not position. If a senior initiates a salute with a junior, it's out of respect or congeniality with the junior, and is not to be expected.

[ddelaney103]

In CAP, it's my unit, but if I have a light colonel in it, he gets a salute from me and he'd better understand it's my squadron and he follows policy I set down.

Your job would be easier if he saluted you.  One more tool in the 'ol tool box.  And that's how it works in the USAF we're supposed to be emulating.

In USAF you will not see a Lt Col working on a day-to-day basis as a staff officer for a Captain.  Ever.  If anyone knows of an exception to this, please post the unit, the names of the individuals and the address so we can call and confirm.

In the Air Force, a lieutenant colonel doesn't ever salute a major.

In CAP, it should follow the same way, except that rank and authority get convoluted, so there's a extreme disconnect. Still, the answer -- and the safe bet -- is that rank dictates customs and courtesies, though authority may follow different lines. So in CAP, a lieutenant colonel doesn't ever salute a major. The junior always salutes the senior, and the senior returns the salute.

From CAP's Senior Member Development Course:

Salutes are rendered as a courtesy and are required between those officers junior and those senior in rank. If individuals are equal in rank, salutes may be exchanged. There are no set rules regarding how close or how far away a junior must be in order to render a salute. When a junior recognizes a senior, the junior will initiate a salute. There will usually be a verbal greeting exchanged by both members and the senior member will return the salute. This action occurs very quickly, usually within a distance of six paces.

...While CAP members are required to salute military officers of higher rank, military members are not required to salute CAP members, although it is often done as a courtesy.

The salute is based on rank and grade, not position. If a senior initiates a salute with a junior, it's out of respect or congeniality with the junior, and is not to be expected.

But what Dragoon was trying to say was in the RM, you wouldn't be a Major with a Lt Col answering to you.  Either you would be promoted when you assumed command or he would be separated from the service when he decided not to do O-5 level work anymore.

In CAP, we could tie grade to position and you would be a Major because you were Sqdn cc and he wouldn't be a Lt Col because he wasn't holding a Lt Col position.  If we treated grade like a symbol of authority and responsibility (which it is in the military) we would have fewer problems than if we treat grade like an award/merit badge, which is the current CAP system.

[BuckeyeDEJ]

But what Dragoon was trying to say was in the RM, you wouldn't be a Major with a Lt Col answering to you.  Either you would be promoted when you assumed command or he would be separated from the service when he decided not to do O-5 level work anymore.

In CAP, we could tie grade to position and you would be a Major because you were Sqdn cc and he wouldn't be a Lt Col because he wasn't holding a Lt Col position.  If we treated grade like a symbol of authority and responsibility (which it is in the military) we would have fewer problems than if we treat grade like an award/merit badge, which is the current CAP system.

True, that. And there was a time in CAP when it wasn't like that, and grade was given along with authority. But even with the current situation, it doesn't mean a colonel salutes a lieutenant. Dragoon's right that the seniority problem is endemic only to CAP.

Grade IS somewhat a symbol of authority and responsibility in CAP -- you have to have time in grade and position before you can be promoted. Unfortunately, there's no Pearly Gates like there are in the RM to which to send the O-5s past their prime... or O-6s....

[ddelaney103]

But what Dragoon was trying to say was in the RM, you wouldn't be a Major with a Lt Col answering to you.  Either you would be promoted when you assumed command or he would be separated from the service when he decided not to do O-5 level work anymore.

In CAP, we could tie grade to position and you would be a Major because you were Sqdn cc and he wouldn't be a Lt Col because he wasn't holding a Lt Col position.  If we treated grade like a symbol of authority and responsibility (which it is in the military) we would have fewer problems than if we treat grade like an award/merit badge, which is the current CAP system.

True, that. And there was a time in CAP when it wasn't like that, and grade was given along with authority. But even with the current situation, it doesn't mean a colonel salutes a lieutenant. Dragoon's right that the seniority problem is endemic only to CAP.

Grade IS somewhat a symbol of authority and responsibility in CAP -- you have to have time in grade and position before you can be promoted. Unfortunately, there's no Pearly Gates like there are in the RM to which to send the O-5s past their prime... or O-6s....

Grade IS somewhat a symbol of authority and responsibility in CAP -- you have to have time in grade and position before you can be promoted.

No, it is not.  CAP grade is strictly a measure of your perceived worth to CAP.  Do some time in CAP and get training? Here's some bars.  Prior service?  Have some bars.  AE/chaplain/CPA/pilot? have some bars.  Worst case scenario:  you have an in with the state house?  Congratulations!  You're now a one ribbon Lt Col.

Mind you, none of this comes with anything but saluting and "walking on the right side" privileges.  There is no inhereant authority in CAP grade, only in position.  If Brig Gen Anderson joins a sqdn where I'm the cc, I'm driving the circus train - stars or no stars.

[JoeTomasone]

Mind you, none of this comes with anything but saluting and "walking on the right side" privileges.  There is no inhereant authority in CAP grade, only in position.  If Brig Gen Anderson joins a sqdn where I'm the cc, I'm driving the circus train - stars or no stars.

True enough, but CAP grade in most cases is a valuable barometer by which you can consider who WOULD be appropriate for a given position - or whom to lean on for the benefit of their experience.  Of course, this varies because everyone is an individual, but you generally won't see the Region Commander looking through his pool of Lieutenants for a viable Wing Commander candidate.  Why?  Lack of experience.   You can bet he's willing to look at the Majors, though.

[mikeylikey]

Of course, this varies because everyone is an individual, but you generally won't see the Region Commander looking through his pool of Lieutenants for a viable Wing Commander candidate.  Why?  Lack of experience.   You can bet he's willing to look at the Majors, though.

Thats where it is jacked up.  Don't forget you can come into CAP as a Captain if you are airframe rated.  I know 1st Lt's with over 12 years of total CAP time who would make far better Region Commanders than some of the ones we have. 

This whole debate is so old now.  CAP either needs to get rid of rank altogether or change the program so that it means something.

To get back on topic.......Is there any mention anywhere of when this 151 will eventually go out in the new binders to Cadets and Officers?  Are we still in the comment phase?  If so, I have a few comments I will get to the creators.

Overall, they should have stressed military customs/courtesies more.  Also, when did this new layout that seems to be appearing in every new publication come about?  I can't stand it!

[dwb]

Also, when did this new layout that seems to be appearing in every new publication come about?  I can't stand it!

um... because they're all authored by the same person?

Personally, I like the format.  I see nothing wrong with making these publications more accessible, and not just for the 12-year-olds.  I can hand this pub to the quintessential "SM Soccer Mom" and she'll be able to understand 1. what to do when a cadet cracks a salute, and 2. why the cadet is doing it.

[BuckeyeDEJ]

But what Dragoon was trying to say was in the RM, you wouldn't be a Major with a Lt Col answering to you.  Either you would be promoted when you assumed command or he would be separated from the service when he decided not to do O-5 level work anymore.

In CAP, we could tie grade to position and you would be a Major because you were Sqdn cc and he wouldn't be a Lt Col because he wasn't holding a Lt Col position.  If we treated grade like a symbol of authority and responsibility (which it is in the military) we would have fewer problems than if we treat grade like an award/merit badge, which is the current CAP system.

True, that. And there was a time in CAP when it wasn't like that, and grade was given along with authority. But even with the current situation, it doesn't mean a colonel salutes a lieutenant. Dragoon's right that the seniority problem is endemic only to CAP.

Grade IS somewhat a symbol of authority and responsibility in CAP -- you have to have time in grade and position before you can be promoted. Unfortunately, there's no Pearly Gates like there are in the RM to which to send the O-5s past their prime... or O-6s....

Grade IS somewhat a symbol of authority and responsibility in CAP -- you have to have time in grade and position before you can be promoted.

No, it is not.  CAP grade is strictly a measure of your perceived worth to CAP.  Do some time in CAP and get training? Here's some bars.  Prior service?  Have some bars.  AE/chaplain/CPA/pilot? have some bars.  Worst case scenario:  you have an in with the state house?  Congratulations!  You're now a one ribbon Lt Col.

Mind you, none of this comes with anything but saluting and "walking on the right side" privileges.  There is no inhereant authority in CAP grade, only in position.  If Brig Gen Anderson joins a sqdn where I'm the cc, I'm driving the circus train - stars or no stars.

Disagree. You have to have time served in command or staff positions to be promoted. There are some handout promotions, to be sure -- professional promotions, command positions and Level I butterbars among them -- but for most all the others, there is some obligation involved.

Outside of a snowbird lieutenant colonel who never wears a uniform, I'm the ranking member of my squadron, and I'm the commander. So in my unit, the subordinate-as-commander issue is moot. But if it weren't, the customs and courtesies go with rank and grade, and authority with position.

At some point, we either agree that rank and grade is attached to saluting, or that rank needs to go away or be rejiggered to match responsibilities. Outside of that, it's all hot air in cyberspace.

[Dragoon]

In CAP, it's my unit, but if I have a light colonel in it, he gets a salute from me and he'd better understand it's my squadron and he follows policy I set down.

Your job would be easier if he saluted you.  One more tool in the 'ol tool box.  And that's how it works in the USAF we're supposed to be emulating.

In USAF you will not see a Lt Col working on a day-to-day basis as a staff officer for a Captain.  Ever.  If anyone knows of an exception to this, please post the unit, the names of the individuals and the address so we can call and confirm.

In the Air Force, a lieutenant colonel doesn't ever salute a major.

And there's a reason for that.

Note that I didn't say "salute"  I said "work for."  Big difference.  In USAF it doesn't happen. In CAP, which claims to use a USAF grade structure, it does.  We're doing it wrong.

In USAF, the customs and courtesies follow responsibilty and authority. In CAP, which claims to use USAF customs and courtesies, they don't.  We're doin git wrong.

[dwb]

I think we're making something very big out of something not very big here.

Salute by rank, and work within the established command structure.

99% of the time, that rule works just fine.  So it looks a little hokey that a Lt Col is on the staff of a squadron commanded by a 1st Lt.  It also doesn't cause enough problems to get worked up about.

When I do a new member orientation (cadets and seniors), it takes me less than a minute to explain this particular peculiarity, and everyone always gets it right away.  So why the fuss?

[Hawk200]

When I do a new member orientation (cadets and seniors), it takes me less than a minute to explain this particular peculiarity, and everyone always gets it right away.  So why the fuss?

There are various reasons.

Some have some issues with another member outranking them when they're the commander. Could be self esteem problems, don't know.

Some think that our squadrons need to have the highest ranking person in command, just like the Air Force usually does. They don't take account the fact that we don't have a mandatory retirement and that such a concept is not workable. Or else, they want to gain a false credibility by mirroring AF appearance.

Others want to push for positional rank because they don't consider positional authority enough, even though it's been working for years.

There are numerous other reasons, as well. I just don't know them right off the bat.

In our unit, anyone that tries to pull rank on the commander would probably find their name on a 2B real quick, and gone shortly after. Anyone that thinks that the commander needs to outrank his entire staff probably isn't considering the fact that a commander can do such a thing. A unit commander is the absolute authority and has absolute responsibility for the unit.

Is it a real issue? Maybe, maybe not. But there are people that just love to make the argument, even though there's probably a snowballs chance in the underworld of such a re-org actually happening right now, or even in the near future.

[Dragoon]

Disagree. You have to have time served in command or staff positions to be promoted. There are some handout promotions, to be sure -- professional promotions, command positions and Level I butterbars among them -- but for most all the others, there is some obligation involved.

Of course, since we haven't defined what "command or staff" means.....it tends to mean very little.

You can make Lt Col in CAP while serving no higher position than assistant squadron historian.


I get the basic concept - rank may not reflect job, but at least it reflects past job.  That's not a bad compromise position.  But CAP doesn't implement that really well.

As a military guy, I see how correct use of grade could really help CAP.  It could reinforce the chain of command's authority (that's why customs and courtesies exist).  It could motivate folks to apply for (and perform in) the tough jobs.  It could make senior officers accountable for ensuring CAP operations run correctly - even when they aren't the guy in charge.

Instead, CAP takes these cherished traditional symbols of authority and responsiblity, and uses them as basically training awards.

[mikeylikey]

There is no logical reason to wear rank insignia in CAP.  Why am I saluting a guy who is a Lt Col in CAP, and got there because he attended two more classes than me.  I see the whole Officer thing in CAP to mean, "Salute me because I took AFIADL 13, SLS, CLC, and SOS". 

The whole thing is silly.  I wish they would either get rid of rank altogether, or adjust it to mean something.  If they adjust it and we lose say....7,000 members because they don't like the system, well guess what.  Who cares.  We will just recruit more to fill in in the following years.

Rank in CAP does not equal serving Command or Staff time.  It only shows what level of Professional Development you are at.  It does not even do that very well to begin with.  You can make CAPT because you Fly, with no other prerequisites.  While I have a guy who slaves for 3 years to make CAPT because AFIADL 13 was late, no SLS or CLC was offered that was closer than 400 miles to his home, and he still shows up at every metting and does his job better than anyone else I know.

I am so frustrated by the whole culture in CAP.

I hate to say this, but NHQ needs a kick in its pants this year.  A real good wake-up call.

[RiverAux]

The call they answer won't be the one you're pushing.

[BuckeyeDEJ]

As a military guy, I see how correct use of grade could really help CAP.  It could reinforce the chain of command's authority (that's why customs and courtesies exist).  It could motivate folks to apply for (and perform in) the tough jobs.  It could make senior officers accountable for ensuring CAP operations run correctly - even when they aren't the guy in charge.

Instead, CAP takes these cherished traditional symbols of authority and responsiblity, and uses them as basically training awards.

Agreed.

[JayT]

There is no logical reason to wear rank insignia in CAP.  Why am I saluting a guy who is a Lt Col in CAP, and got there because he attended two more classes than me.  I see the whole Officer thing in CAP to mean, "Salute me because I took AFIADL 13, SLS, CLC, and SOS". 

The whole thing is silly.  I wish they would either get rid of rank altogether, or adjust it to mean something.  If they adjust it and we lose say....7,000 members because they don't like the system, well guess what.  Who cares.  We will just recruit more to fill in in the following years.

Rank in CAP does not equal serving Command or Staff time.  It only shows what level of Professional Development you are at.  It does not even do that very well to begin with.  You can make CAPT because you Fly, with no other prerequisites.  While I have a guy who slaves for 3 years to make CAPT because AFIADL 13 was late, no SLS or CLC was offered that was closer than 400 miles to his home, and he still shows up at every metting and does his job better than anyone else I know.

I am so frustrated by the whole culture in CAP.

I hate to say this, but NHQ needs a kick in its pants this year.  A real good wake-up call.

I just love how you guys are willing to throw away a good chuck of our membership just so you can play Air Force a little better.

That 'kick in the pants' you so speak of, might result in fewer aircrews, ground teams, less experienced pilots in our birds, less CFI's, less etc etc etc.

You may night care, but when I crawl into the back of a 182, I do.

[mikeylikey]

^ Your right I take it back, a kick in a certain Flight Officers pants would better serve everyone. 

[arajca]

The whole thing is silly.  I wish they would either get rid of rank altogether, or adjust it to mean something.  If they adjust it and we lose say....7,000 members because they don't like the system, well guess what.  Who cares.  We will just recruit more to fill in in the following years.

You say 7000 members. I think it would higher, so let's use 7K-10K members. You're talking about 20-30% of our senior membership. I don't see many cadets leaving directly because of this, but some parents may leave and take their cadets with them, say 500 cadets. Now, this departure probably wouldn't be your 1 and 2 year members. This would be your 10, 15+ year members. The ones who know how things work and have established the connections. The ones who make your experienced aircrews and ground teams. The ones who understand that the back-of-the-house work is equally as important than the front-of-the-house work. You say we'll replace them in a few years, but without experienced crews, will CAP be able to perform during those few years? Also remember, the ones who leave will not be happy and will probably make their unhappiness know to everyone they know, reducing your pool of potential members. And these ex-members still live in the communities where the units are located. Now, consider the effect of this wholesale exodus to some churches and agencies who donate space to CAP. Are they going to continue donating the space, especially if some of the ex-members are on the boards? True, this is an internal issue that shouldn't affect said boards, but reality is that it will.

Your initial 7K would probably grow to 15K-20K when you factor in the cascade of related problems. Can CAP stand such an exodus? Can CAP withstand the ill-feelings generated by it?