Retired General Officers in CAP

[Hawk200]

Sorry D, the NEC allowed this practice about 2 years ago.  As far as I know, BG (ret)Jaeger and Lt Gen(ret) Searock both have stars on their (black) name plate. 

Is that just in some Board minutes, or is it an actual policy in writing that is openly accessible to all the membership? If not, it's wrong.

[Gunner C]

Sorry D, the NEC allowed this practice about 2 years ago.  As far as I know, BG (ret)Jaeger and Lt Gen(ret) Searock both have stars on their (black) name plate. 

I've seen Lt Gen Searock at the National Boards twice with his stars on his name tag.  No one batted an eye.

GC

[DNall]

That doesn't make it legal. No one tells LtGens, their uniform is wrong. Especially not ones they don't know, and they don't press when they have an excuse about NEC this or that. If it's not in published regs/policy ltr/etc then it is not legal, no matter who said or did what.

I'm not saying he shouldn't be allowed to wear it that way if he wants to. Quite the contrary. I'm saying he should be granted his full grade in CAP & be able to wear it on any of our uniform combinations, just like anyone else. He's earned it, he deserves it, and it'd benefit CAP to have it be that way. I don't think we need our pride getting in the way of that. The policy should be changed to that effect.

[ZigZag911]

If it's not in published regs/policy ltr/etc then it is not legal, no matter who said or did what. 

"Not legal" is a bit strong, I doubt anyone entitled to wearing 3 stars (or 2, or 1) would be subject to arrest and prosecution for this 'offense'....what we have here is a breach of CAP regulations....which, by the way, I agree should be altered to fit this circumstance.

[FW]

If it's not in published regs/policy ltr/etc then it is not legal, no matter who said or did what. 

"Not legal" is a bit strong, I doubt anyone entitled to wearing 3 stars (or 2, or 1) would be subject to arrest and prosecution for this 'offense'....what we have here is a breach of CAP regulations....which, by the way, I agree should be altered to fit this circumstance.

39-1 states that the grade on the black name tag is optional.  I'll make the leap of faith that gives the means to put stars on the name tag.  I have a good feeling the new manual will specify this.
However, I disagree with making new rules for grades in CAP.  Grades end at  Lt Col.  for the membership.  Col's are for Corp. Officers,  General Officers are for the 2 elected positions.    We let retired generals put their grade only on the black name tag as a privilege for their service. 
I'm honored to have known 3 retired generals in CAP.  NONE have complained about being a CAP member -- regardless of their CAP grade.
I think this is pretty much a non issue.

[ZigZag911]

AGAIN, this is decidedly not about making retired generals and full colonels happy....it is about their value to CAP as speakers, recruiters, liaisons to legisllators, and so forth.

A shiny eagle or a star or two is a heck of a lot more impressive than railroad tracks or oak leaves!

[DNall]

"Not legal" is a bit strong...

Okay, granted. Not within regs is what I mean. I guess you could make an argument for legal, but it'd never stand up in court & doesn't matter anyway.

39-1 states that the grade on the black name tag is optional.  I'll make the leap of faith that gives the means to put stars on the name tag. I have a good feeling the new manual will specify this.

That's a big leap. Saying wear of CAP grade is optional is VERY different than saying wear of some other rank is allowed. An Army NCO couldn't wear Army stripes in that slot, correct? You see what I mean?

I don't think the manual being worked on by the current cmte is planning to specify this, not unless directed to do so by NHQ, which I haven't heard about. Again, I don't think it's appropriate being it's not CAP grade & is on a CAP uniform.

However, I disagree with making new rules for grades in CAP.  Grades end at  Lt Col.  for the membership.  Col's are for Corp. Officers,  General Officers are for the 2 elected positions. 

Okay, but WHY does it end w/ LtCol for membership & the rest are special? Based on the value of grade from LtCol down, why is it appropriate block those upper grades from people that have earned them in the military?

I understand it isn't necessarily a huge issue for the GOs that currently choose to serve in CAP despite this policy. What of the many other O-6+ officers that choose not to serve in CAP, maybe in some part because they find a serious demotion unappealing or insulting. Is there no value to capturing some of those folks, in whatever role or status that may be?

[FW]

Even if the committee doesn't  remember to put it in 39-1 (remember, the NEC has voted to allow it, but due to my CRS disease, I forgot when it happened) It will get in by the time the NB votes on it.

The other questions are good ones.  I guess we could ask again: Why are grades needed in CAP for anyone?  It's an oldie but a goodie and has been discussed ad nauseam here and there for years.  

In the meantime, I guess letting our distinguished retired O7's and above wear their grade on the black name tag as an appropriate honor we allow them.

[Gunner C]

If it's not in published regs/policy ltr/etc then it is not legal, no matter who said or did what. 

"Not legal" is a bit strong, I doubt anyone entitled to wearing 3 stars (or 2, or 1) would be subject to arrest and prosecution for this 'offense'....what we have here is a breach of CAP regulations....which, by the way, I agree should be altered to fit this circumstance.

My advice would be to get over it.  If not, go ahead and let Lt Gen X that you're offended that he's wearing the rank that was nominated by the president and confirmed by congress.  Just let me know ahead of time - I'd like to buy a ticket to that show. 

GC

[Gunner C]

AGAIN, this is decidedly not about making retired generals and full colonels happy....it is about their value to CAP as speakers, recruiters, liaisons to legisllators, and so forth.

A shiny eagle or a star or two is a heck of a lot more impressive than railroad tracks or oak leaves!

Someone gets it. 

[Cecil DP]

Even though the highest grade a non-corporate officer in CAP can receive is "Lt Col.", we allow AD/Ret general officers to wear their grade on the Blazer uniform.  When Lt Gen/ret. Charlie Searock (former commander of AF Logistics Command), former NJWG/LG and current member of the BoG is in CAP uniform, it usually is the Blazer combo with 3 stars on the nameplate.  
Before that, he was very satisfied to be known as SM Searock.

I believe LtGen Searock wears a nametag that says "Board of Governors" not Civil Air Patrol. As a member of the BofG he is appointed by the SecAF, not as a member of CAP. Therefore he wears 3 stars, while representing the Secretary of the Air Force.  It raises the question of whether he is actually a member of CAp, in addition to his membership of the BofG.

[FW]

Actually, he is a "joint appointee" by the Nat'l/CC and SECAF.
Gen. Searock is still a member of NJWG although he has since moved to another state.

[Hawk200]

"Not legal" is a bit strong.....

One of the definitions of the word "legal" : 3: conforming to or permitted by law or established rules

Please note the emphasis.  And for the people who are going to verify : http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/legal

You don't have to be in a court of law or an attorney to use the term "legal". Something in compliance with regs is "legal", something not in compliance is "not legal".

On another note, if a certain general gets to wear his three stars, why shouldn't former Colonels get to wear their eagles? How exactly has one general earned his stars any more than a one/two star or colonel has earned theirs?

Some might get an impression that keeping your (higher) rank is about who you know.

[Cecil DP]

Actually, he is a "joint appointee" by the Nat'l/CC and SECAF.
Gen. Searock is still a member of NJWG although he has since moved to another state.

SECAF and CAP don't have "joint appointees", he is either representing the AF or CAP. and CAP  already has their 4 members set in granite, although the National Commander's slot is vacant until a new one is elected.

[FW]

Michael,  JFYI.
This is from the CAP Constitution:
                          ARTICLE VIII-B
SELECTION OF APPOINTEES FROM INTERESTED ORGANIZATIONS TO
THE BOARD OF GOVERNORS
1. Three Members of the Board of Governors shall be appointed jointly by the Secretary of the Air Force
and the National Commander of the Civil Air Patrol.

[FW]

Oh, BTW;  since there is no vice commander at this time, (Gen Courter is the interim commander)  The CAP/CS, Col Chitwood, assumes membership in the BOG until the Aug NB meeting, when new Commander and Vice Commander is elected.

[afgeo4]

How do y'all feel about addressing someone "LtCol", when you know they're really a "LtGen"?

I believe a retired military officer shall forever hold the rank he/she retired at and don't we have to call them according to their rank as per customs and courtesies?

I don't know if I could stomach calling them less than what they've earned.

[mikeylikey]

^ Agreed!  Once Senate approved, that title sticks with the person for life.  It used to be you had to be a Captain (officially placed on the scrolls) or higher to keep your title when you left the service.  However there is a clause that states an Officer no matter what rank can keep their title if they served during a decalred or undeclared war.  So that means an Officer can leave the service, and forever be known as Second Lieutenant Joe Blow. 

Back to the General thing......The Gentleman or Lady is a freaking General.  To not allow them to keep their title and wear their appropriate rank is foul, no matter how you look at it.  If the person in question was a LTG, and had on CAP Lt Col, I would absolutely address him as General.  Real Military Rank TRUMPS CAP rank each and every time.  Sorry folks!

[Cecil DP]

Michael,  JFYI.
This is from the CAP Constitution:
                          ARTICLE VIII-B
SELECTION OF APPOINTEES FROM INTERESTED ORGANIZATIONS TO
THE BOARD OF GOVERNORS
1. Three Members of the Board of Governors shall be appointed jointly by the Secretary of the Air Force
and the National Commander of the Civil Air Patrol.

And which master do they serve??

[FW]

Now, that is a good question.  They, as all the members of the BoG, are to serve the best interests of CAP.   After all, it is the Board of Governors who govern it.  The NEC and NB are advisory bodies to the BoG and have authority to make regulatory policy.  The BoG, however, has the authority to overrule the NEC or NB and change the constitution and bylaws.

How do y'all feel about addressing someone "LtCol", when you know they're really a "LtGen"?

I believe a retired military officer shall forever hold the rank he/she retired at and don't we have to call them according to their rank as per customs and courtesies?

I don't know if I could stomach calling them less than what they've earned.

I don't think anyone  would consider adressing a general as "Col" or "Hey You" for that matter.  But, if your about to, call me first.  I want a front row seat for the show.