Need help on Testing cadet issue

[flyguy06]

Ok guys please help me explain to my Squadron Commander.

Last night was our first meeting of the new year. We have one maybe two active cadets. One cadet wanted to take his Curry Test. Now, he doesnt have a complete uniform. He came in wearing a blue shirt, blue pants, and shoes with the tag still on them. He had no CAP cutouts or nameplate. No hat. I tried to explain to my Commander that a cadet must be in a complete uniform inorder to be tested. Especially their Curry test becaue the majority of the Curry test is wear of the uniform and D&C. But my Commander doesnt reallly understand and think the test is just the written portion. I refuesd to test the cadet and the Commander overruled my decision and wanted him tested. Luckily we didint have the test that night

Where in the regs can I find where you have to be in complet euniform to be tested? thats the only thing this guyis going to understand. Was I right for not testing the cadet or should I have tested him in an incomplete uniform?

[Pylon]

CAPR 52-16. 2-4, f.:
f. Uniform. Cadets must possess a CAP uniform and wear it properly to complete Achievement 1 and all subsequent achievements in the Cadet Program. For additional guidance on uniform policy, see CAPM 39-1.

For the rest of the requirements for Phase I achievements, see also: CAPR 52-16, Sections 2-5, b. through f. and 2-4, g.

It's regulatory.  They must possess a CAP uniform and wear it properly (meaning complete minimum uniform - including cutouts and nametags).  Without insignia and nameplates, it couldn't be worn properly.  Show him the above quoted section from CAPR 52-16 and that should clear it up.

It's a long-living myth of cadet programs that the written exams are the achievements and the rest of the stuff is just optional or non-consequential.

[flyguy06]

CAPR 52-16. 2-4, f.:
f. Uniform. Cadets must possess a CAP uniform and wear it properly to complete Achievement 1 and all subsequent achievements in the Cadet Program. For additional guidance on uniform policy, see CAPM 39-1.

For the rest of the requirements for Phase I achievements, see also: CAPR 52-16, Sections 2-5, b. through f. and 2-4, g.

It's regulatory.  They must possess a CAP uniform and wear it properly (meaning complete minimum uniform - including cutouts and nametags).  Without insignia and nameplates, it couldn't be worn properly.  Show him the above quoted section from CAPR 52-16 and that should clear it up.

It's a long-living myth of cadet programs that the written exams are the achievements and the rest of the stuff is just optional or non-consequential.

I totally agree.

[Capt M. Sherrod]

There is nothing regulatory about what cadets have to be wearing for testing.  Each squadron, to the best of my knowledge, establishes a local procedure.  Some squadrons require cadets to be in blues to test.  Some require the UOD.  However, if you re-read the reg cite, it says they must possess a complete uniform to COMPLETE achievement 1 - The test is just one portion.

Requirements to complete Achievement 1

Leadership Test 1
Drill Test 1
CPFT
M/L Ground School
Squadron Activity
Complete Uniform
Cadet Oath

No where in 52-16 or 50-4 can I find where it says a cadet must be wearing a uniform to take a Leadership test or Aerospace test.

EDIT

I'll take this one step further... NHQ is currently working on On-Line testing.  Therefore a cadet at home can take the test whenever they are ready.  Are you willing to say that Cadet Dial-Up is going to say, "Oh, wait, I have to put my uniform on so that I can take this test."  Of course not.  It's a local procedure.  If you say you have to be in the UOD, that's fine.  However, it's not mandated by the regs.

[jeders]

I've never required or even heard of a requirement that anyone had to be in uniform to take a test. COmplete the achievement yes, not to test.

[LtCol Hooligan]

I actually agree with the squadron commander this time.  It is apparent this unit is building its cadet program and these two cadets are just getting the hang of things.  If the cadet is ready to test, at this point I would let him test out of uniform.  I think it is more important getting him into the knowledge portion and with it the drill portion of the curry achievement.  From there, work with him on getting his uniform correct.  Perhaps there are reasons why the uniform was incomplete- obviously a new cadet and I would speculate delays at friendly Vanguard would be the reason why he does not have his uniform items.

My unit is an established unit so we actually require all new cadets to wear a basic uniform combination of blue jeans (no holes) and a black t-shirt with no writing- (sweat shirts are approved as well).  This is the basic uniform until their blues or BDUs are complete.  In order to pass their review board for the Curry, they need to have the Blues complete (unless there is something very strange happening in which arrangements can be made for that) and are then allowed to promote.

In the case of this unit, I think it is more important to have the cadets coming in their partial uniforms and then the DCC helping them learn what they need to wear/buy.  Once a core group of cadets is established the uniforms could be more restricted.  I say help this group out and get them excited and motivated about CAP.  Don't make things road blocks and discouragements.  There is a lot of that in CAP and nothing is more frustrating than the road blocks some members seem to impose on their cadets.

[Pylon]

I actually agree with the squadron commander this time.  It is apparent this unit is building its cadet program and these two cadets are just getting the hang of things.  If the cadet is ready to test, at this point I would let him test out of uniform.  I think it is more important getting him into the knowledge portion and with it the drill portion of the curry achievement.  From there, work with him on getting his uniform correct.  Perhaps there are reasons why the uniform was incomplete- obviously a new cadet and I would speculate delays at friendly Vanguard would be the reason why he does not have his uniform items.

My unit is an established unit so we actually require all new cadets to wear a basic uniform combination of blue jeans (no holes) and a black t-shirt with no writing- (sweat shirts are approved as well).  This is the basic uniform until their blues or BDUs are complete.  In order to pass their review board for the Curry, they need to have the Blues complete (unless there is something very strange happening in which arrangements can be made for that) and are then allowed to promote.

In the case of this unit, I think it is more important to have the cadets coming in their partial uniforms and then the DCC helping them learn what they need to wear/buy.  Once a core group of cadets is established the uniforms could be more restricted.  I say help this group out and get them excited and motivated about CAP.  Don't make things road blocks and discouragements.  There is a lot of that in CAP and nothing is more frustrating than the road blocks some members seem to impose on their cadets.

I have to respectfully disagree.

Can the cadet take the exam without the uniform? Absolutely.  We all understand it takes time for cadets to get spooled up in the program and have everything together.

But the cadet can't pin on the first stripe until they get the uniform complete and knock out all of the requirements (exam, PT, Moral Leadership intro session, cadet oath recitation, etc.). 

If they order a nameplate, a flight cap device, a belt and a pair of CAP cutouts at the time they place their FCU request (cost of under $15) by the time they pass their Curry exam, pass their PT, get the other requirements knocked out and receive their FCU from the AF, they'll have everything set to complete the achievement.

Literally, they need to order four small things to make the FCU into a complete uniform.  Not difficult and not out of scope for a building-from-scratch squadron.

I think it's a disservice to building a cadet program to begin building it wrong.  Otherwise you get into habits of allowing cadets to slide by on things. How do you pick the date where you stop allowing it and aim for complete CAPR 52-16 adherence?  Aim for 100% adherence from day one and you won't have that issue of perpetuating incorrect procedures, promoting cadets who aren't ready, and creating the wrong perception of CAP for these cadets.  It really is a disservice.

The blue jeans and black shirt (or variation thereof) is acceptable.  We do something similar for our new recruits, too.  But notice - you're asking them to have a complete uniform before they pin on C/Amn.  Sure, they can test and learn the material and attend meetings and get geared up.  But they shouldn't be given the chevron until they meet the real minimum requirements.

[DrDave]

No, you don't have to be in complete uniform to take a test.

You're not having him in complete uniform to do the PFT, right?  Same thing.  (Mental image of him running and doing push ups in blues.)

The exam is one of several requirements for advancement.  Each one is completed individually and can be completed independently.  He can pass the Curry exam and then demonstrate his knowledge of the complete uniform at some later date, time, event, or even some time later in the same meeting night.

The posting right before this one, while we would all agree with concerning the cadets PROMOTION, that is not what this thread is about nor what the original poster asked.  The question was whether or not he could TEST out of uniform.  Yes, he can test out of uniform.

Dr Dave

[LtCol Hooligan]

I have to respectfully disagree.

Can the cadet take the exam without the uniform? Absolutely.  We all understand it takes time for cadets to get spooled up in the program and have everything together.

But the cadet can't pin on the first stripe until they get the uniform complete and knock out all of the requirements (exam, PT, Moral Leadership intro session, cadet oath recitation, etc.). 

If they order a nameplate, a flight cap device, a belt and a pair of CAP cutouts at the time they place their FCU request (cost of under $15) by the time they pass their Curry exam, pass their PT, get the other requirements knocked out and receive their FCU from the AF, they'll have everything set to complete the achievement.

Literally, they need to order four small things to make the FCU into a complete uniform.  Not difficult and not out of scope for a building-from-scratch squadron.

I think it's a disservice to building a cadet program to begin building it wrong.  Otherwise you get into habits of allowing cadets to slide by on things. How do you pick the date where you stop allowing it and aim for complete CAPR 52-16 adherence?  Aim for 100% adherence from day one and you won't have that issue of perpetuating incorrect procedures, promoting cadets who aren't ready, and creating the wrong perception of CAP for these cadets.  It really is a disservice.

The blue jeans and black shirt (or variation thereof) is acceptable.  We do something similar for our new recruits, too.  But notice - you're asking them to have a complete uniform before they pin on C/Amn.  Sure, they can test and learn the material and attend meetings and get geared up.  But they shouldn't be given the chevron until they meet the real minimum requirements.

Perhaps I am confused here, but it seems like we agree on the same thing!!  I am not advocating promoting the cadet until they have uniform wear and the other items down, but instead allowing them to test prior to having a complete uniform.

If you are disagreeing with allowing them to wear an incomplete uniform, before anyone gets really excited, here is my rational.  In this scenario, I see a cadet who has his blues shirt, hat, pants and shoes- and perhaps a belt.  Missing cutouts and pin ons.  My thought is we need to teach them how to wear the uniform at some point.  This includes teaching them what buttons need to be buttoned (how many cadets have buttoned the top button without tie- or done the same in BDUs their first day).  We need to teach them about a gig line, how the shirt is tucked in, ironing techniques, shoe and boot polishing, etc.  Allowing them to wear the uniform to get it all down is not a bad thing- teach them one week, refine the next, 3rd week they are looking sharp, 4th week the rest of the items come in.  It gives them trial and error while they wait for their new items to come in.  Once the new items come in, now they know the basics and we can focus on proper placement of the pin ons.

Sorry for taking this one off topic, but I see at the heart of the matter the same concerns about allowing the wear of partial uniforms while cadets are new and learning.  I do not think it is a horrible thing as long as timelines are established and goals are set.  We only have two hours a week to teach them what we can!!

[Eclipse]

Until the uniform is >complete<, the cadets should wear the alternate.  Allowing them to show up with half their kit on is setting a poor example from day 1.

As to whether they can test without it - local unit CC's call, but they obviously can't complete the achievement without a complete, properly work uniform.

[CASH172]

Just to give more assurance to the question, yes the cadet can test without a complete uniform but not complete the achievement.  The unit commander may set some additional requirement like you must be in a uniform to test, but there's no regulation on it. 

A possible solution to ensure cadets are getting getting their uniform together is have the Curry Test the same night as uniform inspection.  This encourages that the cadet will arrive in a complete uniform. 

[flyguy06]

Remember though the Curry test is a test to see that the cadet can wear the CAP uniform properly as well as Drill. I think it sets a bad precedence to allow him to take the test in civilan cloths. He had most of it but just needed a nameplate and CAP cutouts. He admittingly said he left the name plate at home. Thats not good for someone wanting to promote.

Yes, we are a building squadron,but if we are goong to teach the cadets, why not not teach them the correct way

[Capt M. Sherrod]

The Leadership Test based on Chapter 1 of Leadership 2000 has nothing about the proper way to wear the CAP Uniform.

The requirements for promoting to C/Amn indicate that they wear the uniform properly. 

We need to make sure that we are talking about the same thing.

The TEST does not require it.

The ACHIEVEMENT does.

They are not interchangeable terms.

[Hawk200]

If a cadet does not have a complete uniform at the time he/she is ready to test, then testing in civvies (or an established minimum uniform such as jeans/black shirt) seems to be the most appropriate.

Letting a cadet test in an incomplete uniform is showing the cadet "This is what you need to know for the test, it doesn't really matter any other time." Who really wants to display this kind of example?

Let them test in the civvies. The test will show them more about proper uniform wear, and then they'd probably be motivated to wear one properly sooner rather than later.

Set the proper example from the beginning, and you'll have fewer problems to fix in the future.

[flyguy06]

Ok, ok.I'll let himtest. Igave himtwo weeks. I will personally make sure he gets the items he needs

[Maj Ballard]

Not to beat this horse anymore, but according to CAPR 50-4, the only requirement is to be on the current roster/have a valid CAPID. There is no requirement in regs to wear a uniform in order to test.

We've recently begun doing the pipeline recruiting "Great Start" model, which is great by the way. One of the special things about the way we do it is that their graduation/promotion is the first time they wear their blues "in public." In the prior 5 weeks, they are in the black shirt/jeans uniform, but learning to put on insignia, iron properly, shine shoes, etc. As such, they all take their Curry test together, not in an "official" CAP uniform.

At the meeting just prior to their graduation/promotion, we have them bring/change into their blues for an inspection.

The end result is the same. They are able to (and do) wear a proper uniform for their promotion.

[capchiro]

Since PT and testing are on the same night in our squadron, our cadets usually test in PT clothes.  We try to do our promotions on Moral Leadership night which is our Blues night.  That is all..Carry on..

[BlackKnight]

...If they order a nameplate, a flight cap device, a belt and a pair of CAP cutouts at the time they place their FCU request (cost of under $15) by the time they pass their Curry exam, pass their PT, get the other requirements knocked out and receive their FCU from the AF, they'll have everything set to complete the achievement.

Literally, they need to order four small things to make the FCU into a complete uniform.  Not difficult and not out of scope for a building-from-scratch squadron.

Pylon,
You forgot the most expensive item that's not included with the FCU:  The service dress black shoes.  We're getting them at about $25/pr through group logistics connections.  (Retail cost from our local uniform supply store is about $80/pr.)  So the "Free Cadet Uniform" plus about $40 ($25 shoes and $15 misc) provides a complete uniform.

I agree with Capt Ballard regarding there being no requirement to be in complete uniform to take one of the written tests. (With the caveat that showing up for your Spaatz test in an incomplete uniform would be ... morally reprehensible.) 

A final thought for certain commanders who always insist on marching to a different drummer: When CAP NHQ transitions to on-line cadet testing, how do you propose to verify that your cadets are in "complete uniform" when they're sitting at their PC in their bedroom taking an exam after 10 pm?   

[brasda91]

Until the uniform is >complete<, the cadets should wear the alternate.

Not every squadron has an alternate uniform.