Merceneries

[♠SARKID♠]

I'm pretty appalled by this...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nqM4tKPDlR8&NR=1

and this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A6Z1tevub9I

[jimmydeanno]

From the first video:

In addition to the 150,000 troops the US has on the ground in Iraq...the Bush administration has deployed a shadow army comprised of almost 100,000 private contractors...of these, tens of thousands are heavily armed mercenaries that roam about with impunity...among the most powerful companies in Iraw is Blackwater USA...

Blackwater currently has 2,300 men deployed in 9 countries throughout the world...

My how those numbers are dwindling...100,000 -> 2,300.

[Falshrmjgr]

Firstly,

You have to realize this guy has a serious axe to grind against the President, Eric Prince, Blackwater, Cheney, etc....  The myth of the hyper-competent government engaging in dark conspiracies.

Secondly, recognize who Blackwater and others (i.e. Triple Canopy) actually employ:  Former US Army Special Forces, Delta, Navy Seals, and others.   These aren't some thugs hired off the street, they are former members of the US Military who took the same oaths, and have the same sense of professionalism as those that are currently still serving for the most part.

Lastly, the loophole wording in the US Code that created the situation whereby they were not subject to the UCMJ has been recently closed.  The wording has been expanded to include conflicts other than declared wars.

I read Blackwater the book and was frankly disgusted by the authors clear bias couched as journalism.

Anyhow, my $.02

[RiverAux]

Personally, I don't care who they worked for in the past, they are mercenaries now.  Are mercenaries bad by definition -- no, but you have to realize that the best interests of the US are no longer their primary concern. 

[Falshrmjgr]

Personally, I don't care who they worked for in the past, they are mercenaries now.  Are mercenaries bad by definition -- no, but you have to realize that the best interests of the US are no longer their primary concern. 

They are only mercenaries if they are not US Citizens.  Primarily Blackwater, etc have been contracted by the US State Department to do Personal Protection Details, Convoy escort and the like.

Now you may not like the idea of folks not in the military doing the sorts of things that they are doing, but they are working for a US Company, working a US contract for the US Government. 

The definition of mercenary requires that they are working for a foreign country, which they are not.

While there are some valid arguments to be made against this sort of contract work, throwing out pejoratives like "mercenary" only makes an emotional argument, and hardly addresses the issues at hand.

As far as their interests not being the US?  Please explain that further.  Last I checked, their interest is in fulfilling the contract they were awarded to ensure that they get continued work.  Other than that, I would say that their interests are no different than any soldier or marine there:  accomplish the mission, and get themselves and their buddies home alive.

From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mercenary

The situation during Operation Iraqi Freedom – shows the difficulty in defining what is a mercenary soldier. While the United States governed Iraq, any U.S. citizen working as an armed guard could not be defined a mercenary, because he was a national of a Party to the conflict (APGC77 Art 47.d). With the hand-over of power to the Iraqi government, some would say that unless they declare themselves residents in Iraq, i.e. a resident of territory controlled by a Party to the conflict (APGC77 Art 47.d), they are mercenary soldiers, if one does not consider the United States to be a party to the U.S. Occupation of Iraq. However, those who acknowledge the United States to be a party to the conflict would insist that U.S. armed guards cannot be called mercenaries (APGC77 Art 47.d). If no trial of accused mercenaries occurs, allegations evaporate in the heat of accusations and counter-accusations and denials. Coalition soldiers in Iraq supporting the interim Iraqi government are not mercenaries, because they either are of the armed forces of a Party to the conflict or they have been sent by a State which is not a Party to the conflict on official duty as a member of its armed forces (APGC77 Art 47.f).

[Major Lord]

What an incredible piece of crappy socialist "journalism"!  Blackwater, Triple Canopy, etc are not Mercenaries. Look up the meaning of the word. This dirty little hippy [redacted] is shocked to learn that a company that provides contract services vital to the interests of the United States of America is owned by....wait for it.....a Christian! (and we know that Christians are responsible for all the world's evils, don't we? Thats why George Bush used the CIA to purposely kill black people in New Orleans by creating Hurricane Katrina.... Conspiracy nuts galore!) ) I worked for another PMC (Private Military Contractor) with my last assignment being 9 Months in New Orleans after Hurricane Katrina. Blackwater was primarily providing security for FEMA- controlled buildings. They did not have "machine guns", they had pistols and CAR-15 rifles. PMC's provide security services that cannot be provided for by the military. They are not combatants, per se. This is not to say that Hajji does not try to kill them-he tries to kill truck drivers for Haliburton, why not any other American? There are so many errors of fact and interpretation in those videos its obvious that the creator has a leftist political axe to grind. The only surprising thing in that video was it did not end with " I am Hillary Clinton, and I approved this Ad!".

Major Lord

Edit: Please don't subvert the language filter. -DCP

[RiverAux]

How is this from Encyclopedia Brittanica: "hired professional soldier who fights for any state or nation without regard to political interests or issues."

Interesting that it is thought that Americans cannot serve as mercenaries.  Many, many years ago I happened to know a guy that hired on as a mercenary to try to overthrow some dinky government.  It didn't work and he ended up getting arrested.  He was a US citizen....

Folks, by definition the interests of any corporation are that of the corporation, not of the country in which it operates.  This doesn't necessarily mean that they are working against their home country and in most cases it does not.  However, they are definetely not primarily interested in promoting the interests of their country.  I'm not talking about blackwater types, but any corporation.  Anyone who thinks that the companies who set up mail boxes in overseas tax havens as their "headquarters" to avoid US taxes are operating in the best interests of the US hasn't been paying attention.

[Psicorp]

I currently have two very good friends who are working as civilians for a company that has a government contract.  I can tell you that their primary motivation for being there is financial.  One of them is essentially a 911 operator in the Green Zone and the other is a firefighter. 

From what they've told me, I'm actually quite disspointed in the way Iraqi businesses are being treated by our military.  I fully understand the paranoia a soldier must feel when they have to deal with homicide bombers and the like, but they're making it very difficult for Iraqi businesses to perform the jobs they should be doing (i.e. construction).  Businesses from outside Iraq are being brought in to do those jobs which is only hindering the Iraqis from taking advantage of the economic boom and becoming self-sufficient.  It even got to the point where some Iraqis have been trying to hire American civilians just to help them navigate the red tape and get awarded contracts in their own country.

As far as civilian contractors being there at all, I say why not?  The majority of the civilians are doing essential duties (driving trucks, housing coordinators, cooks, EMS, etc.) and are there because they want to be.  I haven't heard one complaint from a member of the military that the contractors are taking away their jobs.     

[Hawk200]

How is this from Encyclopedia Brittanica: "hired professional soldier who fights for any state or nation without regard to political interests or issues."

By that base definition, I would be a mercenary. I fight for my state and nation, and I don't care about politics. I defend the American way of life. I feel it's a duty. One that I am all too glad to fulfill.

Many feel that the Blackhawk contractors are only in it for the money. I think that's a dangerous assumption. There are some that wish to continue serving, and their expertise is on the battlefield. Others, because they can care for family a little more easily on contractor pay than military pay (a viewpoint I think many can understand). Either way, they're still serving their country.

[Johnny Yuma]

Come On!

The Nation is about as left wing as they come. They're in bed with such groups as moveon.org and took journalism lessons from Michael Moore.

Blackwater is a contract security agency. When someone has security needs that are several steps above the average mall ninja rent a cop they hire them. Their services aren't necessarily needed in the states (although i know of a mall in Omaha...) places like Iraq where there are US dignitaries, yes.

DEAL WITH IT!

[flyguy06]

I'm pretty appalled by this...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nqM4tKPDlR8&NR=1

and this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A6Z1tevub9I

Cadet Turkel,

Why are you appauled? You shouldnt be. I am a 19 year U.S. Army veteran. I do what I do so they people like this can have the freedom to voice their opinions. I take issue with people that have problems with people that dont like what they say. The whole concept of a democracy and freedoms is to voice an opinion even if it is one we dont agree with. I dont particularly care for the KKK, but the federal Government lets them rome around the country without imposing any laws against them. I fight for their right to say what they want to say. I fight for the rights of Americans to speak their mind.

Just because someone deosnt like the Bush Administration is no reason to be appauled. What about all the people who bashed Bill Clinton? Were you appauled at them? I doubt it. We live in a society today where it considered blasphamy to bad mouth the President, our troops,or anything dealing with homeland security,and I think that is a terrible thing. America is supposed tobe a country of freedoms yet if you disagree withthe President you are labled. Thats not what your founding fathers had in mind I do not believe.

And by the way, I have been to Iraq. I have met blackwater people and they are very arrogant. Soldiers basically ignored them when they came into the chow hall.

[♠SARKID♠]

Okay, first things first, sorry for not posting sooner, I was at work.

Second things second, I'm not appalled at the use of mercenaries.  I don't like the idea of them as a main force in combat, and I know that that isn't what Blackwater does.  BW does high risk security, and bravo for them, they've got serious guts to do it.  They are needed because military forces are occupied elsewhere and with different missions.  The military is working to secure freedom and BW (and other contractors for that matter) are doing the type of work that doesn't fit the military's mission in Iraq.

The problem I have is that there is no accountability for their actions.  When you work not necessarily in secret, but outside of the limelight there is always the chance of a misuse of power.  I AM NOT SAYING THAT'S WHAT THEY ARE DOING!!!!!  It angers me that they can/could if they wanted to; that the opportunity is there.  It's not a bash against BW, but a bash against the system for not being able to account and hold consequences for the actions of their contractors in the event something unsavory would happen.

Maybe that was a bad video to illustrate my point, but its the one that got me thinking about it in the first place.  The second video is more of an emphasis/example to my point than the first, apologies all around for that oopsie.

Third things third, its Turkal, not Turkel.

[flyguy06]

I did misunderstand you then and I apoligize.

But I do think BW is a bunch of overpaid security guards. I think that what they do military forces could be doing. They dont do what you think they do trust me.

[♠SARKID♠]

^No prob, its my fault really. I was in a rush to get to work and I didnt have time to write the detailed analysis.  So I apologize all around for not being specific.

(You do have to admit tho, it sparked a [darn] good conversation)

[Falshrmjgr]

Hey at least it wasn't a uniform thread 


Conversely, let's queue the discussion of BW uniforms....

[Stonewall]

I think that what they do military forces could be doing.

I agree to a point, but I also disagree.

I think in limited numbers, case by case situations, and with a small group of selected soldiers, yes, the military can do what PMCs do.  In fact, they do it already.  I won't bring up who protects who, but the military does have protection details performed by members of the military.

There just aren't enough troops to handle such a large scale detail.  First, a 19 or 20 year old soldier cannot do the job, generally speaking.  We can all name some squared away PFC or SPC that could, but across the board, no.  You're talking a large number of NCOs and SNCOs, some with special operations training; all with protective operations training, to operate 24/7/365.  For one individual, it could take up to 15 people to adequately protect someone in Iraq.  This would call for more rotations, calling up of more guard and reserves, of which, have already been over there 2 and 3 times.  It's just not feasible.

Whether you appreciate it or not, the job of protecting someone, in any environment, is hard and takes it's toll on you.  Many of these PMC guys will not do this job for more than a few years.  And trust me, most of them will not have a job working executive protection when they return to the states based on their experience in a high risk hostile area.  Like in any profession, some are good at what they do, some aren't; but it's tough to transition from wearing 5.11s with an M4 to putting on a tie and standing outside a boardroom.

Do I think we need PMCs doing security work?  Absolutely.  Do I think they need to be monitored a bit closer.  Absolutely.  Most of these guys didn't just wake up and say I want to go work for BW.  Most of them started out as Privates and Seaman in the military and learned the tradecraft to hold such positions today.  In my opinion, they've paid their dues.  Some folks stay in for a career in the military and some don't.  Chances are, those who don't, get paid more.

Trust me.  Not everyone can do the job of protection.  One of my favorite sayings as it relates to personal protections is "if you think hiring a professional is expensive, try hiring and amateur".

They dont do what you think they do trust me.

They don't protect people?  They aren't contracted by the US State Dept to provide physical security of the embassy and it's personnel? 

You may mean that they do more than what you think they do.  And you're right.  But not everyone needs to know what else they may or may not do.  Just like in CAP, do not base your opinion of the whole bunch because one or two dud rounds screw up.  US special ops folks are spread thin, hence the very large bonuses being offered to 18 series army types.  Sometimes you have to contract out for things; from intel to supply trucks.  To me, there's no difference.

[stillamarine]

I did misunderstand you then and I apoligize.

But I do think BW is a bunch of overpaid security guards. I think that what they do military forces could be doing. They dont do what you think they do trust me.

We prefer the term Security Officer 

I was offered a job with Blackwater, as well as a couple other companies, but I'm good. I've had enough of all that personally

[flyguy06]

I did misunderstand you then and I apoligize.

But I do think BW is a bunch of overpaid security guards. I think that what they do military forces could be doing. They dont do what you think they do trust me.

We prefer the term Security Officer 

I was offered a job with Blackwater, as well as a couple other companies, but I'm good. I've had enough of all that personally

security Guard, security officer? same thing

[stillamarine]

I did misunderstand you then and I apoligize.

But I do think BW is a bunch of overpaid security guards. I think that what they do military forces could be doing. They dont do what you think they do trust me.

We prefer the term Security Officer 

I was offered a job with Blackwater, as well as a couple other companies, but I'm good. I've had enough of all that personally

security Guard, security officer? same thing

eh, no not in many peoples minds, and like I said it's a preference thing.

[/derailment]

[♠SARKID♠]

Hey at least it wasn't a uniform thread 


Conversely, let's queue the discussion of BW uniforms....

Its always amazes me to see them fighting in bright t-shirts and without helmets.  Personally, I'd consider that an essential piece of equipment...