NHQ Uniform Committee

Started by LtCol White, November 14, 2007, 06:15:02 PM

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Trung Si Ma

Quote from: jaybird512 on November 14, 2007, 09:27:18 PM
I'd say use the gray slides with regular AF stripes pinned on it (or embroidered) for all NCO ranks on the blues.  On the BDU and/or BBDU just pin regular AF stripes on the collar in the same location that the cadet stripes would go.

Works for me.  Cheap, easy, functional.
Freedom isn't free - I paid for it

jb512

Proposal to Uniform Committee:

Service Dress -

AF Blues with no change.
TPU as alternate for weight/grooming - no changes
Eliminate all other options
Phase out white/gray uniform option

Utility Uniform -

BDU - change color of ultramarine blue to more modern color
BBDU - allow use of the new dark blue insignia
Eliminate all other options

Flight Uniform -

Keep old style command patch
Allow embroidered name tags
Allow cloth rank in background color changed for the BDU
Keep options of green or blue for height/weight

Golf Shirt -        

One style only - embroidered old style command patch opposite of aeronautical or any other choice of badge above pocket.  Mandate tougher oxford style fabric for shirt.  Specify fabric and/or manufacturer for pants.

JayT

Service Uniforms.

Air Force Style.

Double grade insignia for Cadet Airmen and NCOs.
Allow mini Cadet Officer grade insignia on the lapels of the enlisted service coat, so Cadet Officers have the option of not spending $30 on shoulder boards.
Mandate mini grade insignia on the epaulette of the light weight jacket for Cadet Captains and Cadet Colonels.
Switch from gray nameplates to blue nameplates for everyone.
Go back to the old blue CAP shoulder marks.

Corporate Service Uniform

Figure out insignia for Flight Officers.
Same nameplate as Air Force style.
Keep growing standards.
Get ride of the sliver braid and hat strap.
Put CAP cutouts on the epaulettes with the hard metal rank insignia.

Gray/whites

No change, except make a decent standard jacket for them.

Blazer

No change.


Field Uniforms

BDUs
Make a standard shape for Squadron, Group, and Wing patches
Get ride of the American Flag
Don't change the color of the tapes.
Put the Wing, Group, and Squadron patches in the same locations as the Air Force BDUs.
Get rid of the Model Rocketry patch.
Go to metal insigna for Cadet Officers.

Blue Field Uniform.
Same as BDUs.

Blue Utility Uniform.

This uniform is perfect. Keep it.
Keep it identical to the flight suit.
"Eagerness and thrill seeking in others' misery is psychologically corrosive, and is also rampant in EMS. It's a natural danger of the job. It will be something to keep under control, something to fight against."

pixelwonk

"Look Mommy, all the ravenous uniform zealots are coming to feed!"

I did have some ideas, which now after having observed this Charlie-Fox of a thread for a while, I think I'll keep to myself.
However, if I was tasked to a uniform committee, I would have solicited requests to be received by PM and culled the common issues from them for a summary rather than cause a bling induced free-for-all.
I'd then post the summary for the membership to see, and use it for the main points of consideration in my committee.


jb512

Quote from: tedda on November 14, 2007, 09:55:42 PM
"Look Mommy, all the ravenous uniform zealots are coming to feed!"

I did have some ideas, which now after having observed this Charlie-Fox of a thread for a while, I think I'll keep to myself.
However, if I was tasked to a uniform committee, I would have solicited requests to be received by PM and culled the common issues from them for a summary rather than cause a bling induced free-for-all.
I'd then post the summary for the membership to see, and use it for the main points of consideration in my committee.



Yes this will be a 96 page thread within two days.

I don't really see the need to curb it or restrict it to PM though.  It is a place for discussion and let everybody go wild.  As you said, take the common points after a while and put that on the list for the committee.

pixelwonk


jayleswo

Here's my $02.

Uniform Suggestions

General Suggestions:
1.   Phase out all "corporate uniforms" and petition USAF to allow members to wear USAF style uniforms without regard to weight standards. Pipe dream, I know.
2.   Barring that, more consistency in CAP and AF-style uniforms. We need to look like one organization – ONE CAP. So, same insignia, same badges, same name plates, same wear criteria, etc. across all uniforms, senior/cadets and AF-style and Corporate.
3.   CAP NCO Insignia. Concur with suggestion for gray vs. blue color border on enlisted/NCO insignia to differentiate from USAF instead of a triangle/prop device. Allows same pattern to be used which will reduce cost and retain morale benefits of former/current military NCO's to be involved in this program.
4.   Conform to USAF Policy for wear of Command insignia/badge on all uniforms.
5.   Eliminate as many alternative uniforms as possible to reduce the number of uniforms in "CAP Uniform Closet" Candidates to eliminate include:
•   Blue Polo / Golf Shirt and gray slacks
•   White Aviator Shirt and Gray slacks
•   Blazer combination
•   CAP Blue Jumpsuit (retain Blue BDU Uniform)

Battle Dress Uniform (BDU).
1.   Seniors: Require pin-on subdued (or alternatively bright finish) grade insignia vs. cloth. This will make it easier to change out grade when members are promoted. It also allows for the possibility of members removing grade insignia when such wear might confuse other agencies (example: CAP Lt Col as a GTM 3 on a ground team led by a CAP NCO or 1st Lt.)
2.   Require CAP Command Patch (e.g. MAJCOM Patch) on Right Pocket in lieu of any other organizational emblems. This will promote uniformity and enhance distinctness of this as a CAP uniform
3.   Remove American Flag patch to create room for other qualification and misc. patches
4.   Keep the remaining insignia the same for now, no need to be swapping out insignia and name tapes and patches when CAP may be authorized to wear the ABU in a few years.

Airman Battle Uniform (ABU)
1.   Insignia and wear consistent with USAF, except for "Civil Air Patrol" on branch tape.
2.   If additional distinctiveness is required, then specify gray branch and name tapes vs. ultramarine blue or ABU background pattern. This color would provide consistency with the gray coloration of our shoulder mark insignia and be a better match for the coloration of this uniform.
3.   Allow all other CAP specific insignia and badges to be on ABU background (or, alternatively, if not approved by USAF, then on gray background).

AF-Style Service Uniform:
1.   Specify gray name plates and shoulder mark insignia for Cadets. We preserved blue nameplates and blue epaulets for Cadets as a cost-saving measure when seniors went to Maroon then Gray shoulder mark insignia several years ago. There aren't any Cadets from that time who are still cadets. Let's make the insignia color the same as the Seniors for a more uniform appearance.
2.   Eliminate hard shoulderboards for Cadets and specify wear of gray shouldermakr/epaulets instead, same as Seniors, on service uniforms.
3.   Allow wear of brushed silver name plate on the Service Dress Uniform coat for Cadets for consistency with Seniors.
4.   Require wear of U.S. insignia on service dress uniform coat for cadets for consistency with Seniors.
5.   Allow wear of metal grade insignia by CAP Officers on AF service dress jacket with small "A" letter superimposed (eg. Coast Guard Auxiliary). Require commissioning braid to be gray and brushed silver name tag to say "Civil Air Patrol" above member last name to distinguish from AF Officer. Morale benefit to doing so at a time when CAP is losing members, and more uniformity in other insignia.

Corporate Service Uniform
1.   Specify style of Aviator shirt be same pattern as USAF blue shirt
2.   Allow wear of same badges, ribbons and insignia (including U.S.) on corporate service and shirt coat as on AF-style for morale and consistency. Require gray commissioning braid to distinguish from USAF (vs Silver). Keep Gray in our heritage. Allow continued wear of metal grade insignia as long as USAF approves that for AF-style uniform. If not, then require gray shouldermark insignia for consistency with AF-style uniforms.

John Aylesworth, Lt Col
Commander, PCR-CA-151
John Aylesworth, Lt Col CAP

SAR/DR MP, Mission Check Pilot Examiner, Master Observer
Earhart #1139 FEB 1982

NAYBOR

In addition to AlphaSig's suggestions for the "mess dress" TPU, I am designing mess dress boards for the TPU using AFROTC hard boards (replacing the Hap arnold button at the top of them with a CAP bright button), since they are clutch back.  The boards will be very similar to the AF mess dress boards, except thay will be black to remain distinctive.  With a black tie, black studs, tux shirt, no nametag or "CAP" cutouts, and mess dress mini medals and mini insigina, I think it will go nicely.  I will post the pictures here as soon as I am finished--I am still waiting for one part to put them together fully, but with what I have already put together, I think all will be pleased (I hope).  This combo is proposed as an OPTIONAL way to wear the TPU, so that the present "semi formal" dress remains, and does not increase members' costs.

Should I also send this idea up the chain of command for approval, or is it OK to submit the pictures and rational here for direct consideration by the NHQ Uniform Comittee?

I also have ideas for an optional service cap device design--will also supply pictures.

LtCol White

#48
I don't want it to operate as a network of PM's. That defeats the purpose of making it an open forum for feedback. As we work though all the suggestions and stand up working models, they will be posted here for comment.

I would not be following my charge if I made it a private system of information not shared. If the thread gets out of control/off topic with sillyness, I will simply lock it and end the input. Bearing this in mind, please don't ruin a good thing and give me your legitimate ideas. 
LtCol David P. White CAP   
HQ LAWG

Admiral, Great Navy of the State of Nebraska

Diplomacy - The ability to tell someone to "Go to hell" and have them look forward to making the trip.

LtCol White

Quote from: NAYBOR on November 14, 2007, 10:17:43 PM
In addition to AlphaSig's suggestions for the "mess dress" TPU, I am designing mess dress boards for the TPU using AFROTC hard boards (replacing the Hap arnold button at the top of them with a CAP bright button), since they are clutch back.  The boards will be very similar to the AF mess dress boards, except thay will be black to remain distinctive.  With a black tie, black studs, tux shirt, no nametag or "CAP" cutouts, and mess dress mini medals and mini insigina, I think it will go nicely.  I will post the pictures here as soon as I am finished--I am still waiting for one part to put them together fully, but with what I have already put together, I think all will be pleased (I hope).  This combo is proposed as an OPTIONAL way to wear the TPU, so that the present "semi formal" dress remains, and does not increase members' costs.

Should I also send this idea up the chain of command for approval, or is it OK to submit the pictures and rational here for direct consideration by the NHQ Uniform Comittee?

I also have ideas for an optional service cap device design--will also supply pictures.

Please, I am not asking for any photo submissions. I want the only posted photos to be those of the models put together based on the feedback so there is no confusion.

You can email me or PM me the photos but do not post them on this thread.
LtCol David P. White CAP   
HQ LAWG

Admiral, Great Navy of the State of Nebraska

Diplomacy - The ability to tell someone to "Go to hell" and have them look forward to making the trip.

jb512

Quote from: LtCol White on November 14, 2007, 10:18:28 PM
I don't want it to operate as a network of PM's. That defeats the purpose of making it an open forum for feedback. As we work though all the suggestions and stand up working models, they will be posted here for comment.

I would not be following my charge if I made it a private system of information not shared.

Thank you.  People with nothing to add (or nothing constructive to the discussion) can resist the temptation to hit the "post" button.

MIKE

Quote from: LtCol White on November 14, 2007, 10:18:28 PMIf the thread gets out of control/off topic with sillyness, I will simply lock it and end the input. Bearing this in mind, please don't ruin a good thing and give me your legitimate ideas.

Who made you a mod? I don't think you'll be the one to do the locking.  ;D
Mike Johnston

LtCol White

Quote from: MIKE on November 14, 2007, 10:38:25 PM
Quote from: LtCol White on November 14, 2007, 10:18:28 PMIf the thread gets out of control/off topic with sillyness, I will simply lock it and end the input. Bearing this in mind, please don't ruin a good thing and give me your legitimate ideas.

Who made you a mod? I don't think you'll be the one to do the locking.  ;D

Yeah but since Mike is on the committee all I have to do is ask him to do it.  ;D
LtCol David P. White CAP   
HQ LAWG

Admiral, Great Navy of the State of Nebraska

Diplomacy - The ability to tell someone to "Go to hell" and have them look forward to making the trip.

JayT

Oh, and make it so cadets can only wear their highest achievement ribbon.
"Eagerness and thrill seeking in others' misery is psychologically corrosive, and is also rampant in EMS. It's a natural danger of the job. It will be something to keep under control, something to fight against."

MIKE

NB had a [mess] fit last time they (NCAC) tried that.
Mike Johnston

CAP_truth

Col:

   With everyone putting in their 2 cents worth. Mine is to use

1 the same blush silver name plate that is used on the corporate Dress uniform (CDU)  be  used on the AF uniform.
2. Yes remove the silver braid from the CDU and have a blue braid .
3. Standardized the design and shape of badges for all specialties except for chaplain, legal, medical using silver with no colors. 
4. Placement of specialty badges to conform to AF guidelines.
5. Same cutouts, metal rank insignias on both AF & CDU.
6. All ribbons that are authorized on the AF uniform be allowed on the CDU
Cadet CoP
Wilson

LtCol White

Sample of proposed CAP NCO Chevrons if NHQ decides to expand and build the NCO Program. These would be worn on Service and Corporate coat and an ABU version could also be produced.

LtCol David P. White CAP   
HQ LAWG

Admiral, Great Navy of the State of Nebraska

Diplomacy - The ability to tell someone to "Go to hell" and have them look forward to making the trip.

RiverAux

1.  Require that any Wing supplement to CAPR 39-1 be approved by NHQ and posted on the national web page (like with supplements to 60-1). 

2.  Insert clear language into the regulation indicating that the "golf shirt" is a uniform item that can only be worn as part of the Summer Uniform combination and cannot be worn as a separate item during regular civilian activities.

3.  Allow cadets to wear their uniforms to school when authorized by their squadron commander as part of a recruiting drive. 

4.  Require that some sort of hat be worn with CAP Corporate uniforms and come up with appropriate required hats. 

5.  Consider allowing wear of AF-style uniforms by those who don't meet the height/weight requirement if they do meet some variation of the body fat percentage scale that the AF uses as an alternate. 


MIKE

Quote from: RiverAux on November 15, 2007, 12:23:25 AM
1.  Require that any Wing supplement to CAPR 39-1 be approved by NHQ and posted on the national web page (like with supplements to 60-1).

Me like... actually, I think this should be the case with all such supplements. 

Quote from: RiverAux on November 15, 2007, 12:23:25 AM3.  Allow cadets to wear their uniforms to school when authorized by their squadron commander as part of a recruiting drive.

Some units already do this... but there are also schools out there that will not allow the uniform to be worn. 
Mike Johnston

Carl C

Simplify and standardize.
I personally like the corporate uniforms and would just as soon do away with AF style all together.
Blue flight suits and BDUs as standard duty / work uniforms.   Medium grey pants are almost impossible to find other than dress pants.   Not very serviceable.   A darker grey "Docker" flat style would be nice.
Just specify something and make it available.

To echo others...  Good luck and bless your soul for taking this one on!