Convicted felons

[BillB]

OK  Lets make the Mods unhappy...Start a poll... which avitar is better.

[Skyray]

And lots of o-ni-ons.

Yessir, onions and red meat.  How did you know?  I got used to it in prison.

[SarDragon]

And lots of o-ni-ons.

Yessir, onions and red meat.  How did you know?  I got used to it in prison.

I used to watch his cooking show. What a hoot.

[flyguy06]

Folks, a person is responsible for their actions at all times.  If a child committs a felony, I have to ask why that was even possible?  Where were the parents/guardians.  Often times some student in class, who robbed a local home (not a house...a "home"), are treated as the victim.  Why was the kid unsupervised?  Where was the parent?  Did the kid sneak out (in which case there is malicious intent all around)?

I know for a fact that, even with parents aside, students in school are told that robbing, cheating and drugs are wrong from as young as Kindergarden.  There is no excuse for people to claim they don't know better.  They, therefore, have to face the music.

If a 22 year-old steals a car in the 1970s and is convicted by a jury of their peers, that person was responsible for that crime and has to live with it.

Each day I find myself lecturing at least one student on what is the "right path" and what is the "wrong path."  Parents and guardians have the greater role...we spend lots of time outright telling them the consequences for their acts.

If a person cannot, will not, listen to collected wisdom, then the price is high.

Youthful indiscretion only means mature consequences later.  Don't excuse stupidity and criminal acts because they were young when they did it; it won't undo the crime, especially a felony.

Yes, but sometimes, the law makes mistakes or profiles people. When Iwas in the Army in Hawaii, I was pulled over, and taken to jail for DUI. But guess what? I dont drink alcohol. I was tired frombeing inthe filed all week and was weaving in  and out of the road. The Cop pulss me over and doesnt even give me the breath testuntil we get to jail and I am in a holding cell for 2 hours. Then he sends me onhis way without even an apology. Profiling happens. Iknow

[Eclipse]

I was tired frombeing inthe filed all week and was weaving in  and out of the road. The Cop pulss me over and doesnt even give me the breath testuntil we get to jail and I am in a holding cell for 2 hours. Then he sends me onhis way without even an apology. Profiling happens. Iknow

Had a few tonight?

BTW - pulling a vehicle over that is weaving all over the road is not "profiling" it is "probable cause".

[Cadet Tillett]

I was tired frombeing inthe filed all week and was weaving in  and out of the road. The Cop pulss me over and doesnt even give me the breath testuntil we get to jail and I am in a holding cell for 2 hours. Then he sends me onhis way without even an apology. Profiling happens. Iknow

Had a few tonight?

BTW - pulling a vehicle over that is weaving all over the road is not "profiling" it is "probable cause".

Well, the guy could've at least administered the breath test.

[floridacyclist]

If someone is that tired, they don't need to be on the road anyway. My kids have already been to one funeral for a friend of their's who was killed when his sister fell asleep and I've responded to more than a couple of accidents where fatigue was a factor.

[flyguy06]

I was tired frombeing inthe filed all week and was weaving in  and out of the road. The Cop pulss me over and doesnt even give me the breath testuntil we get to jail and I am in a holding cell for 2 hours. Then he sends me onhis way without even an apology. Profiling happens. Iknow

Had a few tonight?

BTW - pulling a vehicle over that is weaving all over the road is not "profiling" it is "probable cause".

Pulling a vehicle over is not profiling. Puttinghim injail before administering a breatherlizer is. I am on the badge side of the law now and I realize that

[Flying Pig]

Unless your hooking them for drunk in public.  But any cop should be able to tell the difference between tired and drunk.

[flyboy]

Here's an interesting twist on this debate. The Florida Boot Camp Guards and Nurse were just acquitted of all charges in the death of the teenaged boy in the Florida boot camp.  Therefore, they have no felony convictions on their records.  If they showed up at your squadron tomorrow and you were commander, would you sign off on their membership?

[BillB]

In Florida if you are charged with a felony and aquitted, the arrest remain on your record. Thus it will show up on a criminal record check.

[Major Carrales]

In Florida if you are charged with a felony and aquitted, the arrest remain on your record. Thus it will show up on a criminal record check.

What does that mean, exactally?  One is held accountable for an arrest even if found to be not guilty?  Could this hold up a CAP member's application or readmittance?

[Cecil DP]

In Florida if you are charged with a felony and aquitted, the arrest remain on your record. Thus it will show up on a criminal record check.

What does that mean, exactally?  One is held accountable for an arrest even if found to be not guilty?  Could this hold up a CAP member's application or readmittance?

Yes. If you're charged,  you're fingerprinted. This will show up when fingerprints are checked.. Attach a letter to the Senior Member application explaining what happened.

[Ned]

What does that mean, exactally?  One is held accountable for an arrest even if found to be not guilty?  Could this hold up a CAP member's application or readmittance?

Well, among other things it means that we have a strong public policy against "secret arrests."

If the authorities could arrest people without a very public record, horrible abuses are almost certain to occur.

As it is, it is no great shame to be arrested.  Mistaken identifications are not all that uncommon, and sometimes citizen arrests (or even arrests by peace officers) are simply in error.

In most cases, an arrest on a rap sheet is accompanied by the disposition.  It will often indicate, for example,  that no charges were filed, or perhaps charges were dropped, or even an acquittal. (Of course if there is a conviction, the rap sheet will list the charges, any penalties, and current probation or parole status.)

Rarely, an arrest is listed without a disposition.  If that occurs, I imagine CAP authorities with access to the information may ask a prospective member for an explanation.  Seems reasonable enough.

Ned Lee
Former CAP Legal Officer

[Flying Pig]

What does that mean, exactally?  One is held accountable for an arrest even if found to be not guilty?  Could this hold up a CAP member's application or readmittance?


If you werent convicted, I imagine it could hold up an application depending on the circumstances.  I had arrested a 26 year old male for having a 13 year old girl friend.  Believe it or not, she was about 5'11" and looked like she stepped out of a Victoria Secret catalog, so the "she looked 18" argument could have worked, except for that silly detail about him picking her up at the local Elementary school everyday after class.   Anyway, her dad got a job in Europe somewhere.....Poooof...she vanished into thin air.  Mom and dad were kinda weird.  The suspect actually admitted to everything during my interview.  But the charges were dropped becase the victim was gone. 

When you look at his CII print out all it says is:

PC288(a)  Lewd Acts with a Child under 14
Dismissed in the Interests of Justice

Although he wasnt found "not guilty" by a jury, Thats probably a case where you should be held accountable. 

[lordmonar]

Hence the reason for the waiver process and the background screening.

A potential member submits his app and fingerprints.  National pings on the arrest and asks for more information.  Then everyone in the chain of command can look at the situation and make a decision from there.

The bottom line.  If you as a commander are not comfortable with an individual for any reason....criminal background, attitude, job performance, what ever....you can deny them entry into the program and 2b them once they are in.

But there is no bright line in the sand and there should not be.  Just as there are times where someone is convicted of a felony and should still be let into CAP there are times when someone has not been convicted and should not be allowed with 100 yards of CAP.

YMMV.

[Ned]

A potential member submits his app and fingerprints.  National pings on the arrest and asks for more information.  Then everyone in the chain of command can look at the situation and make a decision from there.

Patrick,

A slight correction.

No one in the chain sees criminal history information, with the single exception of the National Commander (or designee).  That stuff is on very close hold in the Executive Director's office.  Only the Executive Director or National Commander can grant a potential waiver.  The rest of the chain will never know the contents of the criminal history provided by the FBI or if  a waiver was granted, unless the applicant chooses to share the information.

[High Speed Low Drag]

*** Huge Bump ***
As I was searching for a thread totally un-related, this popped up on the search and I read with great interest.  As a police officer, at one time I was part of a committee researching "look-back windows" (a time period that if something happened outside of the window, you not automatically DQd, but could be taken into consideration) regarding various issues for LE candidates.  At the time I was a "no exceptions" person - if you admitted to using drugs, had a DWI, any misdemeanor or felony conviction - then you were scum of the Earth and need not even think about applying.  However, as we got deeper into it, I began looking at other agencies across the country.  One of the things I found was that many LE agencies have various levels.  For example, a lot of agencies have a 1 year look-back window (LBW) for marijuana, 5 year LBW for DWI, 15 year look-back for certain Class I & II drugs, etc.  Same thing goes for convictions – each level of misdemeanor & felony had certain look-back windows.  I also began reading about people that had been stupid years ago, but had turned into productive members of society.

For example, an 18 yo kid got arrested for possessing drugs in the late '70s.  He was convicted, put on probation, and joined the Army.  He retired after 25 years, a decorated soldier with the rank of Master Sergeant and a high-level security clearance, married with one son at West Point, and in excellent physical shape.  He applied to be an officer with the local sheriff's office, but they could not hire him because of the policy (no criminal convictions) they had in place at the time of his application.  The sheriff's department later changed their policy to allow someone to not be automatically DQd for a prior felony conviction.  He went through the application process after that and was, by all accounts, an outstanding deputy. 

By the same accounts, I can think of several officers that didn't have a squawk one on their background that should not have been let anywhere near a badge & gun.

Would CAP want to deny him a position because of his prior felony?  I can appreciate FlyingPig's outlook, I once had a similar one myself.  But after 18 years in LE, and having looked around at other LE agencies, as well as life seasoning, I have a much different opinion now.  I think Ned is right, we should have the opportunity to deny membership to convicted felons, but that it should not be automatic.  The totality of circumstances should be taken into consideration (length of time, multiple offenses, etc) as well as recommendations.  Every person is unique – just like the officers stated above, there are some people that I wouldn't want within a hundred yards of CAP even though they are squeaky clean.

With the two year bump, I am interested in what current thoughts are and if any of the previous posters have re-considered their positions.

[Cecil DP]

I believe that the policy should be as it is now. Time and the nature of the crime should be taken into consideration. The applicant should be up front with his past and a strong letter of support  from the Squadron Commander and the Membership Committee should accompany the application. Certain crimes should never be considered. (Child sex, selling drugs, and desertion from the armed forces). Letters of reference should also be provided from his employer, religious leader, or a local dignitary. 

[Spike]

High Speed, I don't care if a person was 18 or 80, if they were convicted of a felony they are a felon.  How is it that those who abide by our laws should have to compete with those that do not when seeking employment or benefits.  You said the guy made a great officer.  Great, who did he beat out to get the position??

We all make mistakes, and we all know what is right and wrong.  Some choose to ignore the law, and behave in such a way that is against our laws.  Ignorance of law is not an excuse when it comes to crimes like DWI, drug possession, rape and murder.  We ALL as a society understand those things are wrong.

From what you described the person who made an excellent Soldier served an Army that at the time was desperate for recruits and lowered the standard.  Today, that standard has been lowered and some Soldiers were gang bangers, drug dealers and car thieves.  Honestly.....I don't like that policy. 

Once convicted, unless a court somewhere expunges your record so that you name does not pull up a felony conviction....you are a FELON.  Lets not lower standards because of hopes that a person may one day be a good citizen. 

So for you tax evaders, pot smokers (almost legalized in CALI), child molesters and thieves, don't bother coming to my Squadron.  I will not only blacklist you locally I will research and write up letters to CAP National Headquarters making them aware of you.  They do keep a list, and I have no problem getting you added to that list and flagging your name!