Convicted felons

[Major Carrales]

Lastly, I once served aside a gentleman who served time in his youth for crimes committed while in a street gang.  The middle-aged man I knew was a profoundly good and decent person who shared his story with cadets as part of our program to keep kids off drugs and away from street gangs.  To my knowledge we never lost a cadet because of this man and he was beloved by both parents and cadets.  Maybe there are some people out there who can't get to forgiveness, but as members of a benevolent charity I sincerely hope that few CAP members are among them.

I have a developing theory on gangs.  Gangs are "counter-society," the alternate social reality created by those that fail to forge a place for themselves in the true society.

I have know serious anti-social types that hate the idea of a "school" uniform and "buck the system."  Likely because they don;t feel they are a part of it, however in gangs they will dress in those colors, obey chains-of command and sacrifice for the good of the gang.

Believe it or not, CAP fills that role for many.

This, however, does not excuse those acts committed when they wore "those colors."  We all have to atone, if not for our sins religiously, then for our crimes secularly.

[flyboy]

This, however, does not excuse those acts committed when they wore "those colors."  We all have to atone, if not for our sins religiously, then for our crimes secularly.

I agree almost completely.  Understand, we're not talking about handing out memberships to prisoners, or even people on probation, but to individuals who have completed their sentence  Therefore, the issue isn't about "atoning" for one's sins.  It's about whether or not one can ever complete that atonement and rejoin society as a respected member, and as such join a benevolent charity called Civil Air Patrol.   Thus, the question becomes, do we have the capacity to forgive? There is a line in the Babylonian Talmud that says once a man has repented that it's actually a sin to remind him of his past sins.  The reason for this is that you can discourage a person such that they away from righteous behavior by constantly defining that person by who he or she used to be.   

[Flying Pig]

A benevolent charity?  I think I just threw up on myself.

[floridacyclist]

Believe it or not, I do believe that is what we are defined as on the books, or at least something very similar. Too tired and flying too low to look it up this morning.

Bottom line is that law enforcement does have a different level of public trust...we give you guys guns and ask you to enforce our laws, all of which adds up to a very awesome respnsibility. CAP is basically as stated above except that we happen to be affiliated with the Air Force. Sure, we work alongside cops at times, but so do many other agencies; in Mississippi, we had members of our ham radio club filling in as 911 dispatchers in the Emergency Command Center - all without a background check.

We do not go by the exact same standards as LE and never will...including the absolute bright-line ban on felonies, and for the type of agency that we are, the status quo of allowing felonies ONLY after a waiver is probably the most appropriate. We seem to keep forgetting that last part..that any felony applicants still have to make it past the review board, and I am sure that many do not.

[flyboy]

A benevolent charity?  I think I just threw up on myself.

I hope you weren't wearing your good clothes.

Look at CAP 20-1(E) Section A (1) which says: Civil Air Patrol, A Corporation. Civil Air Patrol (CAP) was established 1 December 1941 and is a private, nonprofit corporation of a benevolent character, incorporated by the United States Congress on 1 July 1946 (36 USC 40301-40307).

Futhermore, if you look at the Federal Statutes creating CAP, our Constitution, and our own regulations, we're not designed to be an elistest group of military wannabes, but have the fundamental purpose of  being a conduit for public service as stated in our Objects and Purpose: "b. Encourage and develop by example the voluntary contribution of private citizens to the public welfare."

Last I knew we held status as a charitable organization for tax purposes.  I'm not aware of our organization paying any taxes on the money we raise.  I know you can write off donations to CAP, which I think pretty much makes us a charity by just about any definition. 

[Ned]

A brief observation:

The law enforcement "bright line" isn't really such a bright line, BTW.

In California at least, felons who have received a Certificate of Rehabilitation and a pardon can still do law enforcement work, including some positions with "peace officer" status like a probation or parole officer.

(In California, "peace officer" status is a broad classification of persons who can exercise arrest and certain other powers reserved by law.  Examples include police officers, sheriffs' deputies, DA investigators, probation officers, parole officers, highway patrol types, park rangers, etc.)

[Pericles]

The law enforcement "bright line" isn't really such a bright line, BTW.

California has always been twenty years ahead of the rest of the country in the trek toward progressivity.

Down in Texas, the line is so bright that you can't get a law enforcement job if you were kept in after school for littering.

You guys are talking apples and oranges.

[floridacyclist]

Speaking of apples and oranges, one thing to look at is the average age of new members in LE, the military, and CAP. LE and the military have mostly younger applicants who if they have done anything major would have just gotten out of jail for it and could not be trusted any further than you can throw them. CAP's applicants are usually much older (IIRC from a class this past weekend, the median age is like mid-40s) and if they have committed some youthful indiscretions (I believe that was what they called it when referring to The President's past), have had much more time to reflect, learn, become productive, and prove themselves as capable of learning to live within society's rules.

There's a difference between a 25yo who committed a crime at the age of  20 and a 60yo who did the same thing assuming both have stayed straight ever since.

[Fifinella]

This is an interesting debate which goes to issues of public policy, how we see that nature of people, and the very nature of CAP.   Having served at the Command level I can assure everyone that there are many excellent CAP members presently serving honorably who carry the stigma of past felony convictions. 

There's been mention here of CAP membership as a "privilege" and I understand the reasoning behind that argument, but I don't think that's a complete representation of what CAP membership is. Consider that CAP is chartered as a benevolent charitable organization.  That is, we're here to provide public service.  A convicted felon should not simply be punished, but should also be given an opportunity to repay his or her debt with service to the community.  CAP, by the very nature of our purpose, serves as a portal for those who wish to contribute to the society.  Therefore, I have no problem with convicted felons who have turned away from a life of crime serving along side me.
Maybe there are some people out there who can't get to forgiveness, but as members of a benevolent charity I sincerely hope that few CAP members are among them.

As a squadron commander, the ultimate issue to me is LIABILITY.  Philosphies aside, I don't want to expose my "self" to liability by knowingly accepting a felon as a member of my squadron.  Call me what you will, that's my bottom line.

I was advised when I took command to get an umbrella insurance policy, but my insurance company wouldn't issue one covering my volunteer liabilities.  So I do what I can to limit my liabilities, knowing that I work with children in a highly litiginous society.

[Pericles]

As a squadron commander, the ultimate issue to me is LIABILITY.  Philosophies aside, I don't want to expose my "self" to liability by knowingly accepting a felon as a member of my squadron.  Call me what you will, that's my bottom line.

I was advised when I took command to get an umbrella insurance policy, but my insurance company wouldn't issue one covering my volunteer liabilities.  So I do what I can to limit my liabilities, knowing that I work with children in a highly litigious society.

If you are sued for performing duties within the scope of your job, you should have some protection from the corporation.  With what you told me about your problems with the van, I wouldn't count on it.  So you raise a valid point.  Maybe some of the other sea lawyers out there have a comment.

[floridacyclist]

Based on the evaluation standards I've witnessed, I would be more worried about being sued by someone (or a survivor of someone) that has been hurt by someone that the CC had signed off on as qualified and later discovered to have been pencil-whipped.

[Pericles]

Didn't pencil whipping come to an end?

Besides, someone who knows who fifinella was would never pencil whip anything.

[floridacyclist]

Not saying that she would...but can she guarantee that all of her members were properly evaluated by other SETs without re-evaluating them herself? Sure, someone else might test the cadet, but her name goes on as the approver.....just like on the application of a potential new member.

[Skyray]

Gene, you are going to turn her into a micro-manager and have her lying awake at night worrying about her liability.

[Fifinella]

Gene, you are going to turn her into a micro-manager and have her lying awake at night worrying about her liability.

I find wine takes the edge off...

[Skyray]

You can get a fine whine right here, Just look around.

I liked your other avatar better.  Disney send you a cease and desist, or did you find the Wisconsin One?

[floridacyclist]

A good Spatlese works for me.

Yes,I liked the other one much better too. Was it Disney? Or did one of the mods tell you it was too hot for a family website? LOL

[Skyray]

She still has it on her profile.

I cook a lot, and I have gotten in the habit of pouring cooking sherry in a measuring cup to keep my thirst quenched while I cook.  Got the idea from a comic from Louisana named Justin Wilson who said don't never cook with no wine you wouldn't drink.

[SarDragon]

She still has it on her profile.

I cook a lot, and I have gotten in the habit of pouring cooking sherry in a measuring cup to keep my thirst quenched while I cook.  Got the idea from a comic from Louisana named Justin Wilson who said don't never cook with no wine you wouldn't drink.

And lots of o-ni-ons.

[Fifinella]

A good Spatlese works for me.

Yes,I liked the other one much better too. Was it Disney? Or did one of the mods tell you it was too hot for a family website? LOL

I have been graced with a Tedda Fifinella.  No word from Disney.

Spatlese, hmmm?  That Winetasting Class Inland SAR Course is sounding better and better.