Convicted felons

[Skyray]

I seriously think you are a troll, but I am going to ask you a question like you are not.  It has always been my understanding that a felony conviction was incompatible with having a pilot's license.  Your handle is alabamapilot.  Are you a pilot, and if so, did you report your felony to the FAA?

[Camas]

I am a convicted felon with a drug possession charge 5 years ago.  I also have six misdemeanor convictions ranging from assault and battery to petty theft.  When my background check came back unapproved, I wrote a letter to NHQ and eventually was approved for membership.

I seriously think you are a troll.

I gotta agree; something wrong here.  CAPR 39-2 is very clear here and yes, I'm sure waivers can be obtained, but that clause which reads "Conviction of a felony - - - " is there for a reason.

I served as the orientation officer for my former squadron until I was recruited to serve at wing.  All new potential members had to go through me prior to even speaking to the unit commander.  Trust me, my friend, you wouldn't have gotten past me; not for a second. 

[floridacyclist]

Yes, a waiver can be given by NHQ.  I am a convicted felon with a drug possession charge 5 years ago.  I also have six misdemeanor convictions ranging from assault and battery to petty theft.  When my background check came back unapproved, I wrote a letter to NHQ and eventually was approved for membership.

Something smells funny here....almost like a setup of some sort?

[DHollywood]

I personally know of CAP members who, having recieved a full Pardon from the Governor of the state of conviction, are now NOT convicted felons because the pardon sets aside the conviction under the law.

The charges were non-violent non-kid offensive - pardons are not just handed out like candy either.

In any event, the law says they are not felons and they dont even have to report the past history in most cases. 

I know of 2 who now have permits to carry a concealed weapon.

Point being, there is a remedy to the disability of status as a conicted felon - its called a pardon.

[Flying Pig]

Alabama Pilot....

You cant possess a pilots license with a felony conviction.  Can you explain that?

[pixelwonk]

Fair warning: Remain professional about this, guys...

[SDF_Specialist]

Alabama Pilot....

You cant possess a pilots license with a felony conviction.  Can you explain that?

Would the FAA taken it away if the felony conviction came after receiving the pilot's license?

[Skyray]

Alabama Pilot....

You cant possess a pilots license with a felony conviction.  Can you explain that?

Would the FAA take it away if the felony conviction came after receiving the pilot's license?

There is a questionnaire with every medical where it asks about encounters with the law, and it wants stuff as innocent as parking tickets.  Put down a felony, and I think the doctor has to deny your medical and notify Oklahoma City.  So the answer to your question is yes.

[SJFedor]

Alabama Pilot....

You cant possess a pilots license with a felony conviction.  Can you explain that?

Would the FAA take it away if the felony conviction came after receiving the pilot's license?

There is a questionnaire with every medical where it asks about encounters with the law, and it wants stuff as innocent as parking tickets.  Put down a felony, and I think the doctor has to deny your medical and notify Oklahoma City.  So the answer to your question is yes.

Most ME's that I've talked to will defer it to OKC for them to figure it out. My first medical, I was honest and listed the few small, stupid things I did as a younger kid. Sealed records, expunged, etc etc, but I didn't want it to bite me in the ass later in life. He deferred it to OKC, and, while using AOPA's help to move things along, OKC issued me a medical a few months later.

[mikeylikey]

Alabama Pilot....

You cant possess a pilots license with a felony conviction.  Can you explain that?

I never knew that!  Wow......it's almost like you "do time" for your crimes, then spend the rest of your life "doing time".  They should just come out and say, if you are convicted of a felony, you are no longer a citizen.

[Camas]

Alabama Pilot....

You cant possess a pilots license with a felony conviction.  Can you explain that?

Wow......it's almost like you "do time" for your crimes, then spend the rest of your life "doing time". 

There's a lesson here isn't there?  Don't commit a felony.  End of story!

[Skyray]

Mikey:

if you are convicted of a felony, you are no longer a citizen.

Actually that is an extremely accurate analysis.  No civil rights.

[DHollywood]

Interesting discussion....  wrong but interesting.

I just took a look through the CFR's and the ONLY law relating to convictions and deniability of a certificate states, in a nutshell, that a conviciton for drug/alcohol offenses can be used to deny or revoke a certificate for only up to 1 year from the date of conviction.

Then it occurs to me that no one has cited any reg or law prohibiting a convicted felon from getting a pilot license.

In fact there is no such law.

A convicted felon CAN (and many DO) obtain a pilot license.

Cite me a specific statute that says otherwise.   

[flyerthom]

Interesting discussion....  wrong but interesting.

I just took a look through the CFR's and the ONLY law relating to convictions and deniability of a certificate states, in a nutshell, that a conviciton for drug/alcohol offenses can be used to deny or revoke a certificate for only up to 1 year from the date of conviction.

Then it occurs to me that no one has cited any reg or law prohibiting a convicted felon from getting a pilot license.

In fact there is no such law.

A convicted felon CAN (and many DO) obtain a pilot license.

Cite me a specific statute that says otherwise.   

Actually if I can use the story of Fredrick (Rik) Luytjes Jr. 

TRAFFICKING -The Boom and Bust of the Air America Cocaine Ring By Berkeley Rice.

Conviction for cocaine smuggling with 10 year sentence cut for various reasons.
Mr Luytjes Still has an ATP and is now running a business seeking sunken treasure.

From Landings.com:

   
Airmen Database Search Result


Name                  : LUYTJES, FREDERIK JOHN
Airman's Address      : <witheld>                         FL,
FAA Region            : Southern
Date of Medical       : Sep, 2006
Class of Medical      : 2
Expiration of Class 2 : Sep, 2007
Airman Certificates   : Airline Transport Pilot
                          Airplane Single Engine Land
                        Commercial Pilot Privileges only
                          Airplane Multi Engine Land and Sea
                          Airplane Single Engine Sea

[flyboy]

I'm coming late to this discussion, but in reviewing what's been said, I think there's some misunderstandings. First, Pardons, along with other forms of Clemency, are done the the Executive branch. That is, the Governor or President issues them.  They do not effect conviction status, but go to the imposition of sentence. I.e.:  They can release you from prison, restore civil rights, etc.  However, they don't seal the record.

Sealing and Expungement, which do seal the record, are judicial actions done through the Court. You have to file a petition in the Court and usually the Prosecutor's office must agree to the sealing or .

The other fact to be aware of is that not every "conviction" is the same. Courts can decide whether or not to "adjudicate" a defendant.  "Adjudication" can be thought of as a formal finding of guilt.  Often, in non-violent 3rd degree Felonies there will be a withhold of "adjudication", especially where the case is settled by entry of a plea, which the vast majority of cases are.

Yes, you can have a felony conviction and hold a pilot's license.

I have no problem with convicted felons in Civil Air Patrol. Granted, the nature of the crime and evidence of the person's rehabilitation should be examined before granting membership, but I would oppose any blanket prohibition.  The reality is that good people sometimes violate the law and as a society we must allow for redemption.  Otherwise, why should a criminal, once convicted, ever care about following the laws if he or she is forever relegated to non-person status? The truth is that people can, and sometimes do, change. We should encourage that change and not constantly remind people of their past mistakes.

Lastly, we should all be concerned that the "Land of the Free" has the largest prison population, but in number and percentage, of any nation in the history of the world.

[Flying Pig]

We also have one of the most civilized nations with the greatest freedoms and liberties, not to mention one of the largest populations.

I am all for redemption, just not in an organization that deals with ES, SAR, Counter Drug, Homeland Security and Cadet Programs.

[Major Carrales]

I do have issues...no PROBLEMS...with "convicted felons in Civil Air Patrol."  

My political theories will not allow it...
We live in a condition that mirrors the Lockian Social Contract, a convicted felon has negated that contract.  We are not talking about "minor crimes" here, but felonies.  C'mon people, these are offenses that have been determined to be "serious."  

As an adult, everyone one of us is not given a "blank check" or "get out of jail free card" because we "were ignorant of the law."  If one is convicted of a felony, this is not minor.  We can't excuse it because "it was the result of a youthful silliness."

Yes, "we should all be concerned that the "Land of the Free" has the largest prison population, but in number and percentage, of any nation in the history of the world."  But that does not mean we excuse criminals because they are a large portion of the population.

[Ned]

Part of the problem we are having with this discussion is that the phrase "convcted felon'  -- like many things in the law -- is deceptively simple and the reality is complicated and nuanced.

1.  "Felony" doesn't meant the same thing in every state.  Acts which are punishable as a felony in one state may only be a misdemeanor in others, and may not even be a crime at all in yet another state.

And even within a single state, the laws change over time and what used to be a misdemeanor can become a felony a decade later, or vice versa.

Example:  Possession of $10 worth of marijuana in California was declared a felonly by our state legislature during the Prohibition era, and until 1976 was  punishable by 1-10 years in the state prision.  In 1976, the legislature declared that simple possession was a misdemeanor, and not even punishable by time in the county jail.  And of course in 1996 the voters adopted an initiative that declared that "medical marijuana" possession is not even a crime.

So you'd have to feel pretty silly applying for CAP membership and disclosing a "felony drug conviction" from 1975, when if you did exactly the same thing today you couldn't even get arrested.  Heck, with appropriate documentation a CAP member with a medical issue could bring marijuana to encampment!

And it is worth remembering that even today, some fairly minor transgressions can be charged as felonies in California.  Examples include: shoplifting a pack of gum (if you have a prior theft conviction); theft of $50 worth of avocados (even wtih a clean record); forging a $10 check; negligently discharging a firearm (even if no one is hurt); joyriding for a couple of hours in Mom's car; slapping a former girlfriend/boyfriend if it produces a red mark on the skin; leaving your dog in parked car . . . .  All bad things of course, but the point is that most other states would charge these same acts as misdemeanors (if at all.)

2.  "Conviction" is a term of art.  As others have pointed out, state practices vary widely.  For the same act that result in a felony conviction in one state, you might be "diverted" in another, or have "adjudication witheld" in a third state -- neither of which might result in a "conviction."

And you can get "unconvicted" in most states, but the procedures for record sealing, expungment, dismissals, and pardons vary widely.  In California, felony probationers who successfully complete probation may apply to the court under Penal Code section 1203.4 for relief.  The law is heavily weighted on the side of the convicted felon -- if he or she has completed probation and kept their nose clean, such peititions are routinely granted.  The efect is that the court sets aside the guilty verdict or plea and dismisses the case.  In effect the petitioner gets "unconvicted" and by law is "released from all the penalties" of the crime.  (There are important exceptions for serious crimes like murder and child molest).

And as a final twist, some crimes are punishable as either a felony or a misdemeanor in the discretion of the court and/or prosecutors.  Common examples include ADW and possession of methamphetamine.  Persons convicted of felonies under these "wobbler" statutes can apply to the court in some states (but not all) to retroactively "reduce" their conviction from a felony to a misdemeanor.  Such applications are routinely granted if the criminal has stayed clean for a period of time.


I guess the bottom line is that we all want to be fair here.  But fairness normally requires that people in similar situation be treated similarly.

And I'm not sure we can do that with a simple bright line rule that "no convicted felons need apply."

[Skyray]

In Florida, you don't even have to forge the check.  Simply bouncing one is sufficient for a felony.

And bad lawyers are a major problem.  I represented a "felon" on a restoration of civil rights who got convicted of assault with a deadly weapon because during a domestic argument in his home, there was a hand gun in the kitchen drawer--according to the arresting officer, "within easy reach."  There was no allegation or finding that he reached for it;  in fact, it stayed in the drawer during the entire altercation.  My personal feeling was that it was as much in the possesion of the wife, who also lived there, as the husband who got convicted.  But I was not the judge, and we have to be tough on gun crimes.

[Flying Pig]

Its not complicated at all.  If it was a felony when you commited the crime, its a felony.  It makes no difference what it may be now.  We in CAP are governed by our respective state laws.  Same argumentc an go for the military or law enforcement with an aplicant telling a recruiter its not fair because in X State its only a misdemeanor and in my state its a felony.

I see law enforcement applicants who have felonies in other states where it may only be a misdemeanor in my state.  Oh well, you still have a felony.

Sine we are discussing it with CAP, lets include law enforcement.  If youve redeemed yourself, then why shouldnt felons be allowed to be cops and give back to society?

It is very simple to have a bright line rule that says felons need not apply.  It works very well for law enforcement.