Advanced Grade from Prior NCO Service

[DrDave]

I have a new member who's joined and is a retired Army E5.

I seem to remember the National Board approving advanced CAP grade for these former NCO's, can anyone point me in the right direction for that new policy?

Thanks,
Dr. Dave

[Stonewall]

CAPR 35-5 only states something along these lines regarding Warrant Officers.

CWO Grade     CAP Grade Authorized
CWO 1 or 2     First Lieutenant
CWO 3           Captain
CWO 4 or 5     Major

Rank isn't affected, however Professional Development courses may be waived for certain military professional education courses.  For instance, I believe NCO Academy courses such as PLDC, ALS, or the Navy/Marine Corps' version of these course may be done in lieu of ECI-13.  And I think the higher the NCO course, the higher the CAP PD course may be waived.

[Stonewall]

Here, did a little research in reference to PME in lieu of CAP PD requirements.

NOTE:  To answer your question, no, there is no advance promotion due solely to being a prior E-5 in the military.

If he has proof of PLDC or BNCOC, he is exempt from CAP Officers Course, but that's it.

CAPR 50-17, Page 26, Attch 2:

MILITARY EDUCATION QUALIFYING AS EQUIVALENT TO CAP SENIOR OFFICER COURSE, REGION STAFF COLLEGE AND NATIONAL STAFF COLLEGE

NOTE: Equivalencies must be no older than 20 years from the time of initial application.

Equivalent to CAP Senior Officer Course

Code Z Any US Armed Forces NCO Academy (Pay Grades E-5 - E-6) or equivalent, resident or
correspondence.

Equivalent to CAP Senior Officer Course/Region Staff College

Code P Any US Armed Forces Senior NCO Academy (Pay Grades E-7 - E-9), resident or
correspondence.

Code W USAF Squadron Officer School, USA Basic/Advance Officer Courses or USN, USMC,
USCG equivalent, resident or correspondence

Code V All Service Academies, ROTC, OCS, or OTS

Code X Any US Armed Forces Command and Staff College, resident, seminar, or correspondence

Code T Any US Armed Forces War College, resident, seminar, or correspondence

Equivalent to National Staff College

Code P Any US Armed Forces Senior NCO Academy (Pay Grades E-7 - E-9), resident or
correspondence

Code X Any US Armed Forces Command and Staff College, resident, seminar, or correspondence

Code T Any US Armed Forces War College, resident, seminar, or correspondence

Note: To determine if other military courses apply as equivalencies, contact NHQ CAP/ETP with course information (name, course number, location, number of hours, completion date, etc.). Equivalencies may only be used one time. To apply for an equivalency, attach a copy of diploma or other proof of course completion (DD Fm 214) to a letter mailed or faxed to NHQ CAP/ETP. Equivalencies should be requested as soon as possible after becoming a CAP member.

[mikeylikey]

Question......I received credit for Senior Officer course by way of ROTC.  I received credit for Region Staff College by way of my Captains Career Course (USA Advanced Course).  So is there a limit to the amount of equivalency credits you can request.  I read down below that only one equivalency, is that per military PME taken, or are you only allowed one total waiver the entire time you are in CAP. 
I am probably reading to far into it!

[MIKE]

You only get one free pass for PME.

[IceNine]

Correct you slipped through somehow.  You are only allowed to use one PME for CAP equivalency.  The way it should be done to ensure that you get what you earned is to put in for the highest course available at the beginning and then be done with it.

[ddelaney103]

Negative - the line "Equivalencies may only be used one time" refers to classes that can be used for more than one level: i.e. you can use SNCOA to skip either NSC or RSC, but not both.

If this weren't  the case, you wouldn't be able to take both ACSC and AWC for your stars on the ribbons w/o also taking an RSC or NSC to get the ribbon.

[afgeo4]

The member may enjoy the "advanced" grade of SSgt or become a senior member without grade.

[Sgt. Savage]

The august 2006 NB passed the advanced promotion of Senior NCOs so that E-7 = 1Lt, E-8 = Capt and E-9 = Maj.

It's in a reg somewhere now?

[DrDave]

August 2006 National Board, thanks!

Seems he's SOL as an E5 ... will have to do it the old fashioned way instead!

Dr. Dave

[afgeo4]

What about not having advanced promotion to an Officer grade is SOL for a Staff Sergeant? Did he like taking the express train to paperworkville in the Army too? I'd think he'd be proud of being an NCO since he retired as one. Proud enough to take the SSgt grade in CAP. Even if he wants an officer grade... SOL? I don't think so. He has to earn it like everyone else. We may give away ribbons like it's no one's business, but grade usually has to be earned.

[Sgt. Savage]

, but grade usually has to be earned.

LMAO RAOFLH

[afgeo4]

, but grade usually has to be earned.

LMAO RAOFLH

I'm sorry... what about regulations makes you laugh? There are TIG, TIS and Courses that have to be taken to earn most grades in CAP. The exclusions are made for pilots, doctors, lawyers, and chaplains, just like in the military.

Are they as hard to earn as military grade? Umm no, but they do have to be earned in their own way.

[ddelaney103]

, but grade usually has to be earned.

LMAO RAOFLH

I'm sorry... what about regulations makes you laugh? There are TIG, TIS and Courses that have to be taken to earn most grades in CAP. The exclusions are made for pilots, doctors, lawyers, and chaplains, just like in the military.

Are they as hard to earn as military grade? Umm no, but they do have to be earned in their own way.

Warming a chair at a couple of weekend classes you can't fail, logging some time as Asst AE Officer and paying your dues on time does not equal "earning."  It certainly does not equal the amount of work involved in becoming an E-5.

It hard not to laugh when the "high horse" some people get on in CAP actually sits outside the supermarket and takes quarters for rides.

[Stonewall]

I understand what afgeo4 is saying and I also understand that earning CAP rank isn't rocket science.

My silver oakleaf and $9.00 can get you a cup of coffee at Starbucks, but the fact is, I didn't just show up to meetings and get promoted.  There are steps to follow, requirements to meet, responsibilities to hold and time to serve.  I realize a monkey can do all of those things, but nonetheless, they are standards.

I agree, some folks go so far as to consider themselves as being owed salutes by military enlisted members and of course, people do sit on top of an imaginary "high horse".  I think that happens in all programs and organizations where there is a rank structure.  It's just important that we severely beat those that do so educate them...

[ddelaney103]

True, but saying to an E-5 "you have to earn this - we don't give out grade to just anyone" is a bit of black humor because we do that so very much.

[afgeo4]

I understand what afgeo4 is saying and I also understand that earning CAP rank isn't rocket science.

My silver oakleaf and $9.00 can get you a cup of coffee at Starbucks, but the fact is, I didn't just show up to meetings and get promoted.  There are steps to follow, requirements to meet, responsibilities to hold and time to serve.  I realize a monkey can do all of those things, but nonetheless, they are standards.

I agree, some folks go so far as to consider themselves as being owed salutes by military enlisted members and of course, people do sit on top of an imaginary "high horse".  I think that happens in all programs and organizations where there is a rank structure.  It's just important that we severely beat those that do so educate them...

This monkey only paid $7.79 for his latte, so HA!

[Sgt. Savage]

, but grade usually has to be earned.

LMAO RAOFLH

I'm sorry... what about regulations makes you laugh? There are TIG, TIS and Courses that have to be taken to earn most grades in CAP. The exclusions are made for pilots, doctors, lawyers, and chaplains, just like in the military.



Are they as hard to earn as military grade? Umm no, but they do have to be earned in their own way.

I'm sorry but, All you have to do is show up and **PING** you're an officer. Pick a specialty, go to SLS, have a job, which you don't have to do, and **Kazam!** your promoted.

If you're really special, you Go from Capt>>>>>>> Col (read as Wing King) because you knew which elbows to rub. Pilots, teachers, doctors, medics, nurses, lawyers..... I imagine that the whole entire class of Advaced Appointment individuals might just be 50% of all of our members. That makes the easy promotion idea a little more credible.

I say stick with your NCO grade. At that point, rank becomes a lot less important since you can't promote.

[SAR-EMT1]

I have a new member who's joined and is a retired Army E5.

I seem to remember the National Board approving advanced CAP grade for these former NCO's, can anyone point me in the right direction for that new policy?

Thanks,
Dr. Dave

I know what you are talking about. It was discussed a few months back. The idea was to increase recruiting figures by throwing SNCOs a carrot E7 2nd Lt. E8 got 1st Lt and E-9s got Capt. (after lvl one and CPPT)

Then CAP had a "CAP Command Chief Master Sgt" come on the scene. He was from
Iowa I believe and convinced NHQ to squash the above plan while he tried to increase support for a "CAP NCO Corps" - not sure how he faired and I havent seen him on Captalk in ages (ask the Iowa guys)
Anyway when he showed up the advanced promotions went away.
So as of now- no soap.

I have a retired Army Command Sgt. Maj. and he was (for a time) mad as hades upset when he found out he couldnt make Capt.
But then I got his PME processed, he took ECI-13 and SLS/CLC and he made Capt the normal way.

[DHollywood]

My silver oakleaf and $9.00 can get you a cup of coffee at Starbucks,

I often stop at Starbucks on my to and from various CAP meetings/activities in uniform and I haven't been able to pay for my own coffee in several months.....   seems there are a lot of Patriots that visit Starbucks!  

[Stonewall]

I'm a prior Army E-6 turned Air Guard E-5 (E-6 again in about year or so) and a CAP Lt Col.  I am not, in the least, offended or turned off by the whole CAP rank and promotion process.  I do believe it should be more stringent and I also agree that certain CAP officer ranks should be awarded based on certain military NCO grades.  e.g. E-5 = 2d Lt and so on.

Rank has never meant too much to me.  I accumulated rank in CAP the normal way, by time in service, time in grade, attending professional development courses and serving in certain positions.  Just so happens, I got promotions out of it.  No extra money and no extra dessert on my meal card.  Also, no big deal.  Just because one gets promoted in CAP doesn't mean they're all about the rank and getting promoted.  It's just a part of the program.  Like many of you, I would be just as happy being a TSgt in CAP, a permanent senior member without grade, or have the title "Mister". 

I don't think it's necessary to take anything away from people for wearing the rank they've earned in CAP as long as they don't embarrass their rank, the organization or the military.  You can be a CAP Major and conduct yourself as such, or you can be a CAP Major and conduct yourself like a total buffoon.  Let's hope we don't go with the latter.

[Eclipse]

Its disingenuous and insulting to both sides of the coin to compare CAP grades to RealMilitary® grades at any level.

They do not mean the same thing, do not infer the same thing, and are not earned in the same way.

Are there people who's bars, oaks, and clusters mean "more" than other people's?  Yes, and I guarantee you that is true in the RealMilitary® as well.  E5's who bust butt their whole career and get bad breaks, compared to "professionals" who walk in the door as Captains, spend three weeks in "salutin' school" and then wear the same bars as the career guys who went to the USAFA and stay in until retirement.

The best way to avoid insulting anyone is to just not make the comparison and accept the grade for what they are, in total.

There are plenty of people reading this right now, the small number of members who are holding up the
corners of CAP, who are insulted at the insinuation that our grade was attained in anyway but through the proper channels of this program.

The high number of "Senior Captains" - CFI's, etc., who received initial advanced promotion and then never moved forward, are a testament that grade and PD in CAP are more than "who you know" and TIG.

[ddelaney103]

Well, those "Senior Captains" probably never completed Lv II.  Why? Well, Lv II is the only place where you have to take a test given by an org outside of CAP (AFIADL Course 13).  Every course up to then has been the "fog a mirror and graduate" standard.

I have no problem with the recognition of advancement in CAP, but why do we have to confuse the issue by making this recognition US military commissioned officer grade?

[Eclipse]

Last I checked, I was an >appointed< officer in CAP, nothing more, nothing less.  I make no allusions that I am a commissioned officer in any corps, and explain the difference in situations where it is appropriate and warranted.  Otherwise I comport myself with the respect for the position, grade, and organization.

If we have issues with members who act differently, we should address those immediately and directly, not
belittle those who are actually doing what they are supposed to.

For the record, I am not a proponent of NCO's maintaining their grade in CAP.  The current structure does not support an NCO Corps by duties available or operational structure.   When something changes, it might be a different story.

[ddelaney103]

Last I checked, I was an >appointed< officer in CAP, nothing more, nothing less.  I make no allusions that I am a commissioned officer in any corps, and explain the difference in situations where it is appropriate and warranted.  Otherwise I comport myself with the respect for the position, grade, and organization.

Horse hockey.  You put on a military uniform with officer insignia, you call yourself Maj/Col/Capt, you do the salute thing.  How exactly would the average civilian or military person "get" that you're not like all of the other officers, esp that 19 out of 20 aren't going to come up and give you the "my daughter noticed your distinctive uniform..." speech out of the Lv I Course?  For most people, you'll pass the "you look like the people on Stargate SG-1" test, which is probably their closest brush with the AF.

For the record, I am not a proponent of NCO's maintaining their grade in CAP.  The current structure does not support an NCO Corps by duties available or operational structure.   When something changes, it might be a different story.

Finally, I concur with you.  I have yet to see the CCMSgtCAP, or anyone else, give a good explanation on how NCO grades will improve the mission.

[Sgt. Savage]

Come now, there is ABSOLUTELY no comparison between a CAP Officer and a Commissioned Officer.

Just don't try talking about how hard it is to get Grade in CAP. It's likely much hardeer to learn to tie your shoes. For the record, because I had BNCOC in the army, I'm promotable through without ever taking a test, not even the infamous 13 test. Tell me that it isn't easy.

For the record, I am not a proponent of NCO's maintaining their grade in CAP.  The current structure does not support an NCO Corps by duties available or operational structure.   When something changes, it might be a different story.

Finally, I concur with you.  I have yet to see the CCMSgtCAP, or anyone else, give a good explanation on how NCO grades will improve the mission.

The explainations have been given in other threads, we likely don't need to relive it here. We used to have NCOs and if you look at our organizations short comings you'll quickly recognize the importance of having a few.

[mikeylikey]

Finally, I concur with you.  I have yet to see the CCMSgtCAP, or anyone else, give a good explanation on how NCO grades will improve the mission.

I doubt we will.  That was a "child idea" of the late TP.  It will most likely FADE AWAY into the distance

[Skyray]

That was a "child idea" of the late TP.

Do you know something we don't?

[JohnKachenmeister]

I lost this thread somewhere.

A guy was an E-5 Army and joins CAP.

He completes level 1 + 6 months TIG (Which is about how long his fingerprint check will take anyway) and he is a 2nd Lt.  How much "Advanced rank" did he want?

So, if he completed some NCO leadership course, he is waivered for AFIADL 13.  That means the skids are greased for 1st Lt.

So he takes SLS and gets qualified in a specialty, Capt.

All the while he is performing missions, training cadets, and doing the Lord's work, and learning more and more. 

CLC, a speech, a couple of conferences, and he's a Major.

RSC, 4 years in grade, Lt. Col., and that's as high as you can get without being the Wing King.

[ZigZag911]

Kach,

I've heard some feeling expressed that E-7 and above ought to be eligible for advanced grade, pretty much parallel to CWOs (E-7 = 1 Lt, E-8 = Capt, E-9 = Maj)

Personally I agree that senior NCOs in the Real Military have a lot more experience and training than most of us who earned the grade solely through CAP.
I would favor this, but I think that it has stagnated as an issue at the National Board.

[JohnKachenmeister]

I disagree, and I'm coming it the questions from the perspective of a guy who was a SSG, then a 2LT, then up as far as MAJ.

NCO's and officers have different jobs.  In some cases they overlap, sure.  But NCO's execute the missions that officers plan.  The training, philosphy, and emphasis are different.  Transitioning from being an NCO to being an officer wasn't easy.  It was also a learning experience to transition from company-grade to field-grade.  I had to re-learn the skill of stepping away and letting other folks do their jobs.

I'd go with letting senior NCO's, E-7 and up, skip the 2LT grade.  Otherwise you are asking a nurse to become a doctor without going through an internship.

[ZigZag911]

I've known a couple of Army CSMs, and I'll tell you my impresion has been that they know as much about running anything up to and including a wing as most of those we have doing it.

I could go with a modification, E-7/8 get 1 Lt, E-9 gets Capt....if I'm not mistaken, at the start of WWII a number of Marine & Army NCOs at the top of the ladder (I think in those days THEY were the E-1s! got changed after the war) were offered reserve commissions as O-3 or even O-4

[DrDave]

Thanks, Kach, for getting us back on topic.

I'm the guy who started this thread.  Since getting my initial question answered, this thread has taken a wild turn.  I saw no need to jump back in since my original question was answered.  But Kach asked, so here's a bit more information:

The new senior member in question is _interested_ in advancing as an officer and in a playful way wants to try to catch up with his son who was promoted to Captain during their squadron meeting that night (having served admirably for one year as a squadron commander).  In discussing with him how professional development works in CAP I remembered the possibility of advanced rank standing for those former NCO's (as it turns out, senior NCO's and not E-5).  He was very interested in that and I checked here and (as usual and as expected) got an answer back very quickly.

I freely admit that my use of the term "SOL" was unfortunate and inappropriate.  Many of you know I'm a physician in private solo practice -- I was pounding out my question and then my reply inbetween patients during a very busy day.  Bottom line: wrong choice of phrase.

If I offended any members of CAPtalk, including any former NCO's, I sincerely apologize and no insult was intended.

Dr.  Dave

[JohnKachenmeister]

Just as long as you didn't tell a patient he was "SOL" after getting his lab tests back!

That's why I decided not to go to med school.  "Sucks to be you" is, I understand, generally considered to be substandard bedside manner.

[afgeo4]

I have a new member who's joined and is a retired Army E5.

I seem to remember the National Board approving advanced CAP grade for these former NCO's, can anyone point me in the right direction for that new policy?

Thanks,
Dr. Dave

I know what you are talking about. It was discussed a few months back. The idea was to increase recruiting figures by throwing SNCOs a carrot E7 2nd Lt. E8 got 1st Lt and E-9s got Capt. (after lvl one and CPPT)

Then CAP had a "CAP Command Chief Master Sgt" come on the scene. He was from
Iowa I believe and convinced NHQ to squash the above plan while he tried to increase support for a "CAP NCO Corps" - not sure how he faired and I havent seen him on Captalk in ages (ask the Iowa guys)
Anyway when he showed up the advanced promotions went away.
So as of now- no soap.

I have a retired Army Command Sgt. Maj. and he was (for a time) mad as hades upset when he found out he couldnt make Capt.
But then I got his PME processed, he took ECI-13 and SLS/CLC and he made Capt the normal way.

He'd rather wear railroad tracks than Chief chevrons? LOL There's something wrong with that I think. I'd be a Chief over a Colonel any day. Too bad I don't have that choice anymore.

[DrDave]

Just as long as you didn't tell a patient he was "SOL" after getting his lab tests back!

That's why I decided not to go to med school.  "Sucks to be you" is, I understand, generally considered to be substandard bedside manner.

So's kissing all your patients goodbye ...

Yeah, "House" gets all the best lines!

Dr. Dave

[ricecakecm]

Well, those "Senior Captains" probably never completed Lv II.  Why? Well, Lv II is the only place where you have to take a test given by an org outside of CAP (AFIADL Course 13).  Every course up to then has been the "fog a mirror and graduate" standard.

I have no problem with the recognition of advancement in CAP, but why do we have to confuse the issue by making this recognition US military commissioned officer grade?

I'm one of those "Senior Captains", but not because I don't have ECI-13 done.  I've got that, the only thing I need for Level II completion is SLS.  The only thing I need for Level III is CLC.  I can't bring myself to spend one of my few weekends off and away from my family to sleep through those courses, especially since I could easily teach them.

So, I'll happily be a captain for a long time.  Plus, it's [darn]ed expensive to get promoted...gotta buy all the new bling.

[TankerT]

Yeah, "House" gets all the best lines!

Yes... yes he does.

/Everybody lies....

[Chief Chiafos]

Mr. Edgar,

In your post you state that I "convinced NHQ to squash the above plan while he tried to increase support for a "CAP NCO Corps".  That sir, is a bold faced lie!  During the National Boards I made no comments whatsoever, pro or con, concerning passage of an advanced promotion system for NCOs.  In fact, any former NCO who desires to become an officer in CAP has my full and unqualified support.  The NCO program is for NCOs who wish to retain their former grades and serve CAP as an NCO, nothing more.

There has also been an inference that I am one of "Tony's boys", and therefore any advocacy I may have for a CAP program is tainted by agendaism.  A Chief Master Sergeant is nobody's water boy.  We cannot be bought, sold, or intimidated.  Posts such as yours are a cancer on our organization, eating away at morale, and questioning the character of those who work tirelessly for the benefit of CAP.

[Skyray]

Chief:

I am not familiar with what transpired at the National Boards, but I am aware that the expletive Liar is one that should be used with extreme caution.  Mr. Edgar may simply be mistaken and lack the mens rea to be character assaulted as a liar.

As for being one of Tony's Boys:

There has also been an inference that I am one of "Tony's boys", and therefore any advocacy I may have for a CAP program is tainted by agendaism.  A Chief Master Sergeant is nobody's water boy.  We cannot be bought, sold, or intimidated.  Posts such as yours are a cancer on our organization, eating away at morale, and questioning the character of those who work tirelessly for the benefit of CAP.

Your abrupt about face on the military.com board with relation to the Rex Glasgow affair and your subsequent attack on Rex Glasgow in a thread that was subsequently taken down for over emphasis of personality certainly raises questions about your motivation, especially coming as it did subsequent to your appointment to a previously non-existent office by the said "Tony."  I wish I had the same high opinion of "Chief Master Sergeants" that you do, but I find them just as venal as others.  Posts highlighting this venality are not the cancer on CAP, but the cronyism that was highlighted is the problem.

[Pylon]

This thread has taken a serious bent towards inter-personal issues.  Please, gentlemen, keep this topic on professional matters only.  I'll leave this locked for 24 hours to allow individual parties to collect their thoughts.  In the meantime, other discussions related to NCOs, CAP, Advanced Grade, etc., in a professional capacity, can be generated at any time.

Thank you for your understanding.

[SAR-EMT1]

Ok,
Chief Chiafos
I do not appriciate being termed a liar.
I merely repeated the information as I had been told.
As for insinuating that I am grouping anyone with anyone else I never mentioned anyone by name, nor was any name mentioned to me. I have no idea Chief as to what happened at the Boards.
I will not reply as to the thought that I am cancerous.
Please understand that none of what I wrote was intended as an attack on you or your work.

I would  like to apologize to anyone I may have offended.
And I would like to thank Skyray for coming to my defense.

[Skyray]

I think this thread has gone far enough in the direction it was headed, and I would like to make a turn.  In my job augmenting the Coast Guard as an Auxiliarist, I work directly for a Senior Chief (E-8) and in close harmony with two Command Master Chiefs (E-9).  All three of these men have more organizational skills than any Wing Commander with whom I have been associated.  To clarify, the rank is Master Chief, and these two Master Chiefs are assigned as the leading enlisted men in two different commands, hence "Command Master Chief."

Would it be appropriate to induct them into CAP at an advanced level?  Of course it would.  What level?  I would suggest major or above, because they already have the organizational skills to command a group, or even a wing.  On the other hand, I don't think any of them would have a problem with duty performance promotions, either.

[arajca]

At the Aug 2006 meeting, advanced grade for E-7 through E-9 was approved. E-7=>2d Lt, E-8=>1st Lt, and E-9=>Capt. (Go to page 47)

The initial proposal was for E-7=>1st Lt, E-8=>Capt, and E-9=>Maj. Two amendments affecting the grade were offered. First by Col Stickel to change 1st Lt, etc to CWO-3, -4, -5. It died. The second by  Col Weiss moved the proposed grades down a notch. It passed.

[JohnKachenmeister]

I have reconsidered my older post, and would support E-7's and up as captains.  We give that rank to successful long-term cadets, so I suppose it is proper to give it to long-serving NCO's as well.

[afgeo4]

I have reconsidered my older post, and would support E-7's and up as captains.  We give that rank to successful long-term cadets, so I suppose it is proper to give it to long-serving NCO's as well.

I think we give that grade to Spaatz cadets, not those who have been members for a long time. It's because they're more than qualified to be Captains. They have plenty of knowledge of CAP programs, cadet and senior. They have a lot of leadership experience and they've taken the AFIADL course 13.

I personally don't mind them going officer although I think they should have to take the SLS to become eligible for it.

[MIKE]

I think we give that grade to Spaatz cadets, not those who have been members for a long time. It's because they're more than qualified to be Captains. They have plenty of knowledge of CAP programs, cadet and senior. They have a lot of leadership experience and they've taken the AFIADL course 13.

Not always... Personally, I think we should stop this practice.

[JohnKachenmeister]

I have reconsidered my older post, and would support E-7's and up as captains.  We give that rank to successful long-term cadets, so I suppose it is proper to give it to long-serving NCO's as well.

I think we give that grade to Spaatz cadets, not those who have been members for a long time. It's because they're more than qualified to be Captains. They have plenty of knowledge of CAP programs, cadet and senior. They have a lot of leadership experience and they've taken the AFIADL course 13.

I personally don't mind them going officer although I think they should have to take the SLS to become eligible for it.

We sometimes use the terms "Rank" and "Grade" interchangeably.  It doesn't make much difference to us, since we don't get paid.  But "Captain" is a rank, and a captain's "Grade" is O-3.

[MIKE]

^ Not in CAP it ain't... Capt is your grade and your rank is your seniority among other captains.

[SJFedor]

. They have a lot of leadership experience and they've taken the AFIADL course 13.

Rarely. For their Eaker they either need to do RCLS or complete the ECI 13 course. In my 8 years in CAP, I've only ever met 2 cadets that met the requirement with ECI 13 and not RCLS. I think most kids take enough tests when they're growing up, most (especially Eaker candidates) would probably rather spend another week on a military installation with their friends, then studying for a big test.

I personally think Spaatz's should be held to 1st Lt until completion of ECI 13 and SLS and a tech rating, then be promotable to Capt immediately after those requirements are met. That way, they've already completed level 2 and can be expected to have the knowledge of their "up through the ranks" counterparts. Being a Spaatz cadet does not make them a "know all-BTDT", in some cases yes, they're very wise, in some instances, not so much.

[Hawk200]

We sometimes use the terms "Rank" and "Grade" interchangeably.  It doesn't make much difference to us, since we don't get paid.  But "Captain" is a rank, and a captain's "Grade" is O-3.

Agreed. So many people don't seem to really know the difference, especially if they're not prior military. Or else they just want to be stubborn and do it their own way.

I remember doing different paperwork in the military. Some asked for rank, but a lot asks for both rank and grade. A prime example are specialists vs. corporals. They're both in the grade of E-4, but one outranks the other.

Another practice in CAP that really needs to die is referring to people's rank by using a military grade. Military personnel that hear about an "O-4 in CAP" don't think we seem squared away. The fact that it's referred to in 39-1 is even further ignorance.

That and no one in the Civil Air Patrol has ever been promoted to "O-3". Until they can show me a CAP LES with that grade on it, it's nothing more than a joke. One that makes us look bad.

[ddelaney103]

We sometimes use the terms "Rank" and "Grade" interchangeably.  It doesn't make much difference to us, since we don't get paid.  But "Captain" is a rank, and a captain's "Grade" is O-3.

Agreed. So many people don't seem to really know the difference, especially if they're not prior military. Or else they just want to be stubborn and do it their own way.

I remember doing different paperwork in the military. Some asked for rank, but a lot asks for both rank and grade. A prime example are specialists vs. corporals. They're both in the grade of E-4, but one outranks the other.

Another practice in CAP that really needs to die is referring to people's rank by using a military grade. Military personnel that hear about an "O-4 in CAP" don't think we seem squared away. The fact that it's referred to in 39-1 is even further ignorance.

That and no one in the Civil Air Patrol has ever been promoted to "O-3". Until they can show me a CAP LES with that grade on it, it's nothing more than a joke. One that makes us look bad.

Yes, but ECI/AFIADL forms require an "O grade," so we do have to use them from time to time.

[Hawk200]

Yes, but ECI/AFIADL forms require an "O grade," so we do have to use them from time to time.

Yes, I know. It's a lot fewer spaces to write "O3" than it does to write "Captain". Just because you used it on a card for a course doesn't mean you have an O-3 pay grade.

In that particular case, it's easier to use an equivalency than try to explain the fact that we don't get paid.

[Eclipse]

A step further back is in order, I believe.

"Captain" is your grade.

The date of appointment would determine your rank, which is your place in the universe versus all the other Captains.

"O-3" is your >PAY< grade, for comparison to other services, etc. , it has no lateral use in CAP, but since many of us have to, on occasion, fill out military forms it is simply a checkbox we have to make a selection on.

Having dealt with any number of RealMilitary® Officers and enlisted personnel in my short (8-year) CAP career, including (USN) Captains, Admirals, and field+ in other services, I can assure everyone that the only thing they care about is execution of the mission, whatever that may be at the time.

How we are (or are not) compensated is far from their minds other than when, over coffee, they find out we are volunteers, it generally garners us points.

[Hawk200]

A step further back is in order, I believe.

"Captain" is your grade.

The date of appointment would determine your rank, which is your place in the universe versus all the other Captains.

"O-3" is your >PAY< grade, for comparison to other services, etc. , it has no lateral use in CAP, but since many of us have to, on occasion, fill out military forms it is simply a checkbox we have to make a selection on.

Having dealt with any number of RealMilitary® Officers and enlisted personnel in my short (8-year) CAP career, including (USN) Captains, Admirals, and field+ in other services, I can assure everyone that the only thing they care about is execution of the mission, whatever that may be at the time.

How we are (or are not) compensated is far from their minds other than when, over coffee, they find out we are volunteers, it generally garners us points.

As far as the "Real Military" goes, quite familiar with it. Eighteen years so far, between Army and Air Force. Rank and grade weren't interchanged, regardless of which branch I was in. Nobody ever told me to go looking for "E-7 Jones". Either branch, it was "Go find Sgt Jones".

What you call "Date of Appointment" has always been "date of rank". The date you achieved a certain rank (and it's accompanying pay grade: E-3, O-4, W-5, etc.) is used to compute your "time in grade". You're date of rank may be before someone elses, but if you're the same grade, you certainly don't outrank them. You would have seniority over them, but that gets into other things that aren't really important here.

[Eclipse]

Its obvious that...LOOK A PENNY! 

[Pylon]

Once again, the subject has devolved into semantics.   

[Dragoon]

My only problem with giving officer grade to prior service NCOs is "what about the officers?"

It's true that, compared to a civilian CAP officer, the military NCO has a leg up.

Of course, compared to a civilian CAP officer of equal grade, the military officer has a leg up as well.

So if we start by "promoting" military senior NCOs to captains and majors, how can we be fair without giving  similar "promotions" to military officers?

Or are we saying that we disagree with the DoD, and in our eyes there is no difference between, say, an Air Force E-7 and an Air Force 0-3, so they both get railroad tracks?

At some point, in our rush to recognize the NCO corps, we run the risk of denigrating the officer corps.

[SAR-EMT1]

I see your point.
I think that allowing NCOs to use their PME to cover CAP courses - such as RSC etc. -  might be enough. Thereby saving CAP grade for RM Officers.

But beyond that I know of more RM-NCOs who are current  CAP Officers then RM Officers doubling as CAP Officers.

[Dragoon]

Personally, I'd prefer that for both military officers AND NCOs - get credit for PME, and perhaps some breaks on time in grade.  But CAP is different enough from the military that making anyone a field grade off the street probably isn't a smart thing.

But as a counterpoint, it's possible that telling a USAF major that he gets anything less than oak leaves in CAP is probably a deal breaker.  Pity.

[Hawk200]

Personally, I'd prefer that for both military officers AND NCOs - get credit for PME, and perhaps some breaks on time in grade. 

That's actually a good idea. Would take a little work to iron out the details, but it would reward their experience.

Then again, having a promotion mechanism for NCO's might be nice too. It might seem a little silly to some of them that they could move up through officer grades faster, but if they keep stripes they don't promote at all.

[ddelaney103]

The problem is we have so many ways to get advanced grade you quickly get into "apples v. oranges" land.

I might see an E-9 getting Captain, if we're comparing 15+ years in the service vs 6 for a RM O-3.  But trying to figure out if a Sgt Maj is as useful to CAP as a CPA, Chaplain or professional educator?  Beats me.

Since the bling is one of the few enticements CAP can hand out, it's going to be hard to rein in.

[jb512]

August 2006 National Board, thanks!

Seems he's SOL as an E5 ... will have to do it the old fashioned way instead!

Dr. Dave

He can at least wear the SSgt rank until he makes 2d Lt though...

[arajca]

August 2006 National Board, thanks!

Seems he's SOL as an E5 ... will have to do it the old fashioned way instead!

Dr. Dave

He can at least wear the SSgt rank until he makes 2d Lt though...

Show me where that is authorized. Unless he applies as and NCO, he wears the same grade as all other SMWOG.

[Hawk200]

August 2006 National Board, thanks!

Seems he's SOL as an E5 ... will have to do it the old fashioned way instead!

Dr. Dave

He can at least wear the SSgt rank until he makes 2d Lt though...

Show me where that is authorized. Unless he applies as and NCO, he wears the same grade as all other SMWOG.

If the personnel officer is any good, the member will be asked if they want it. I'd bet if someone came in and didn't even know the NCO option (provided they were eligible), they'd probably be a little irritated to find out about it later. All the ones I had come in took the option.

[arajca]

August 2006 National Board, thanks!

Seems he's SOL as an E5 ... will have to do it the old fashioned way instead!

Dr. Dave

He can at least wear the SSgt rank until he makes 2d Lt though...

Show me where that is authorized. Unless he applies as and NCO, he wears the same grade as all other SMWOG.

If the personnel officer is any good, the member will be asked if they want it. I'd bet if someone came in and didn't even know the NCO option (provided they were eligible), they'd probably be a little irritated to find out about it later. All the ones I had come in took the option.

I'm not saying anything about not telling them about the NCO option, what I'm questioning is the statement that the new member can wear SSgt until their 2d Lt get done. If a member goes the NCO route, they have to apply that way. If they decide afterward to be promoted to 2d Lt when they meet the requirements, that's fine. But to let them wear SSgt (or any other NCO grade) if they haven't joined as NCO's is not authorized.

BTW, the one NCO (E-7) who joined my unit declined to take the NCO route. Yes, I did tell him about it.

[Eclipse]

Correct, >ALL< grades in CAP are appointed by the respective authority.

Nobody walks in the door as "anything", be they RealMilitary® NCO, Officer, or other.

Until proper sigs hit proper forms, everyone is a SMWOG.

[Hawk200]

I'm not saying anything about not telling them about the NCO option, what I'm questioning is the statement that the new member can wear SSgt until their 2d Lt get done. If a member goes the NCO route, they have to apply that way. If they decide afterward to be promoted to 2d Lt when they meet the requirements, that's fine. But to let them wear SSgt (or any other NCO grade) if they haven't joined as NCO's is not authorized.

No one really "joins" as an officer either, they get promoted later once their qualifications are reviewed. Same for NCO's. NCO grades are shown locally, and not tracked at National. So it could be argued that even with appointed rank, they are still only a Senior Member.

Some years ago, I actually created what I called a "2N" form specifically for NCO promotions. Not a valid National form, but it documented the individuals rank, included supporting documention, and it was kept in their personnel folder in the same manner as an officer promotion. Don't know what I did with it. Up to that time, there was no way to show their "appointment".

BTW, the one NCO (E-7) who joined my unit declined to take the NCO route. Yes, I did tell him about it.

I've never run into that, but I don't discount it. I can understand the reasoning though. No reason to force them into something they don't want. And I could see how it could avoid confusion later too.

[arajca]

NCO is a non-standard grade in CAP. You join, you go the standard route unless you request something different, be it NCO, advanced officer grade, ad nauseum. Just because you were/are a military NCO and join CAP, you do not automatically get to wear stripes. The paperwork has to be completed.

National does track NCO grades. See attached screen shot. This is the COWG Director of Personnel.

[Hawk200]

National does track NCO grades. See attached screen shot. This is the COWG Director of Personnel.

Interesting, I didn't know that. How do you submit paperwork through to get it on National's books?

[arajca]

I believe you submit a CAPF 2 and specify the appropriate NCO grade and enclose copies of the appropriate forms (mil ID w/grade, DD 214).

[Stonewall]

I think I'll switch to the NCO grades.  I don't plan on being a CC again anyway.

[Chief Chiafos]

Gentlemen,

When I first posted on this site I thought it would be a conduit for new ideas and a resource for me to engage the membership in meaningful dialogs – a radial idea for someone assigned to headquarters?  That didn't happen and I was very disappointed.  I simply could not cope with the constant going off topic, the endless hair splitting and quibbling, the ill informed, the agenda drivers, and the malicious.  However, I still visit to get a sense of what some of the membership is thinking.

But the post by SAR-EMT1 was more that I could bear and provoked my anger.  SAR-EMT1 could have easily emailed me through this site and asked, "Chief is this true?"  But he didn't.   And true to this site, some one who does not know me, has never met me, and could not possibly have any direct knowledge of the circumstances, chose to muddy the water by bringing up my conduct concerning General Glasgow's demise with a heavy innuendo of being bribed off.  He too could have emailed me thought this site with his concerns as to my character – but he chose not to. Ok, Here are the facts.

I was new to CAP when all that happened.  Members of the Iowa Wing who held General Glasgow in high esteem asked me to defend him, which I did because I trusted the members to be honest, it seem like the right thing to do.  I then learned a hash and personally embarrassing lesson about CAP – it is a snake pit, and unlike the Air Force, it has no honor.  Other members, with direct personal knowledge of General Glasgow's misconduct, came to me with the truth.  I had been had.  The right thing to do was to swallow my embarrassment and retract my defense of the General.  Whether or not that reflected good or ill on General Pineda was never my concern.

Last November General Pineda visited Iowa to see what we were doing.  Our NCO program particularly impressed him.  He asked me to help put one together for all of CAP.  I turned him down – twice.  I was still smarting over the Glasgow scandal and with CAP so polarized over General Pineda, I figured any NCO program associated with me would be DOA.  I recommended several other Chief's for the program, but General Pindea was insistent.  He took my Wing Commander, Colonel Tomlinson, aside and Colonel Tomlinson advised me to take the position, as it was the right thing to do.

To date there is a headquarters-working group on the NCO program: Colonel Chuck Carr, Chief's Clyde Bowman, Lou Walpus, and myself.  This program is not, and never has been, a vehicle for General Pindea to shove an agenda around.  To the best of my knowledge, no Chief at the Boards were even aware of the Advanced Grade idea for NCOs, we were far too busy with our own program needs.  By the way, I sure would like to meet some of these "venal" Chiefs; perhaps you could slip me a few names.

[Eclipse]

...CAP – it is a snake pit, and unlike the Air Force, it has no honor...

[Eagle400]

I then learned a hash and personally embarrassing lesson about CAP – it is a snake pit, and unlike the Air Force, it has no honor.

[sarcasm]
A GREAT thing for the Command Chief Master Sergeant of the CAP to say!
[/sarcasm]

Anybody have a ClueBird smiley?   

[Major Carrales]

I then learned a hash and personally embarrassing lesson about CAP – it is a snake pit, and unlike the Air Force, it has no honor.

A GREAT thing for the Command Chief Master Sergeant of the CAP to say!

Anybody have a ClueBird smiley?   

Is he all that off the mark?  He was tasked with developing a program and was marked for attacked and mocked by the two agendistic sides of our last scandal.

[Eagle400]

I then learned a hash and personally embarrassing lesson about CAP – it is a snake pit, and unlike the Air Force, it has no honor.

A GREAT thing for the Command Chief Master Sergeant of the CAP to say!

Anybody have a ClueBird smiley?   

Is he all that off the mark?  He was tasked with developing a program and was marked for attacked and mocked by the two agendistic sides of our last scandal.

That wasn't the point.  The point was, some things are better left unsaid. 

Is Chief Chiafos on the mark?  You bet he is!  Was it really appropriate for someone in his position to say it on a public internet forum?  No. 

[Dragoon]

While I share the Chief's pain at our shortcomings, I don't think I'd publically admit to being

"The Command Chief Master Sergeant of a snakepit possessing no honor"

That's kind of like pinning a KICK ME sign on your own back.



(But I'm sure he meant that's it's a snakepit now, but he's gonna fix that.  Right?)

[Skyray]

And true to this site, some one who does not know me, has never met me, and could not possibly have any direct knowledge of the circumstances, chose to muddy the water by bringing up my conduct concerning General Glasgow's demise with a heavy innuendo of being bribed off.

I suspect that the Chief is speaking of me at this point.  I did not intend to "muddy the water" and I do have direct knowledge of the circumstances.  The Chief was heavily defending General Glasgow on Military.com, and I was part of the conversation.  I have personal knowledge of Pineda's tactics, having lived with them for the last ten years.  Almost simultaneously with accepting the "Chief Master Sergeant of the Civil Air Patrol" office, an office that did not previously exist, Chief Chiafos did a flip and started criticizing General Glasgow.  I find it hard to believe that a Chief Master Sergeant is politically naive, but Pineda seldom does anything directly, he uses sock puppets.  Thank you Chief for the explanation.  Don't be too hard on General Glasgow until you check the bona fides of those who are preaching calumny about him.  I suspect you will find that they owe Pineda some fealty.

[Chief Chiafos]

Sigh... It didn't take long for my words to be lifted out of context and distorted.  The snake pit comment was made in context of the vicious politics in this organization over the Glasgow scandal and not to CAP in general, or the membership in particular.  Skyray needs to re-check his time lines.  The dust over Glasgow had long settled before General Pineda's visit to Iowa.  And, after realizing I had been had, I did check the bona fides of my truthful sources and found them impeccable, and beholding to no one.  But of course, no rational explanation will ever satisfy a conspiracy theorist.  I knew when I accepted the job to develop an NCO program that the going would be tuff - anybody have a snake bite kit?  I could sure use one.

[Skyray]

Believe it or not, Chief, I feel your pain.  The time line is blurred because of the media in which we communicate.  And the Glasgow issue had two peaks of activity; one when it happened, and one about six months later when General Glasgow finally saw fit to comment.

Please accept my apology.  After years of association with the Real Military I should have known that the integrity of a Master Chief was something that was well beyond Pineda's ability to purchase; or even comprehend.

[ddelaney103]

Sigh... It didn't take long for my words to be lifted out of context and distorted.  The snake pit comment was made in context of the vicious politics in this organization over the Glasgow scandal and not to CAP in general, or the membership in particular.  Skyray needs to re-check his time lines.  The dust over Glasgow had long settled before General Pineda's visit to Iowa.  And, after realizing I had been had, I did check the bona fides of my truthful sources and found them impeccable, and beholding to no one.  But of course, no rational explanation will ever satisfy a conspiracy theorist.  I knew when I accepted the job to develop an NCO program that the going would be tuff - anybody have a snake bite kit?  I could sure use one.

Distorted?  Oh, please.

I then learned a hash and personally embarrassing lesson about CAP – it is a snake pit, and unlike the Air Force, it has no honor.

Tony Snow would have a tough time spinning that one.

Does CAP have problems?  Sure, but spray painting the entire org for the actions of a few is not precisely "Excellence in all you do," is it?

Learn the facts next time, OK?

[Skyray]

Does CAP have problems?  Sure, but spray painting the entire org for the actions of a few is not precisely "Excellence in all you do," is it?

It is when those "few" are the elected leaders of the organization.  If the organization was as lily white as you paint it, it would have gotten rid of the Southeast Region Mafia years ago.

[Chief Chiafos]

Thank you Skyray, you are generous.  I am not very good at politics, I've always been an operations guy getting the mission done as best as I could.  As I was fresh out of the Air Force I never dreamed that CAP could be so consummed with politics, or that trying to do the right thing was tap dancing in a mine field.  I was naive.  With General Pineda under suspension I am technically out of a job as I was assigned to the CC.  I met privately with General Courter to discuss my status.  I advised her that as a working group was now assembled for the NCO program perhaps my usefulness at NHQ was at an end.  General Courter asked me to stay on and continue to serve CAP.  I will do my best.

[Skyray]

Two thoughts:  your best is all we can ask for, and General Courter is a class act.

I am glad you are staying on.  There is likely going to be a major reorganization of the CAP paradigm no matter what the outcome of the Pineda investigation might be, and you will provide us with a little credibility with the Real Air Force.  Being an operations guy is going to help too, it is my opinion that previous leadership has badly damaged operational readiness in deference to cronyism.  From what I am hearing, Iowa is not part of that trend.

[Dragoon]

Does CAP have problems?  Sure, but spray painting the entire org for the actions of a few is not precisely "Excellence in all you do," is it?

It is when those "few" are the elected leaders of the organization.  If the organization was as lily white as you paint it, it would have gotten rid of the Southeast Region Mafia years ago.

I don't think anyone said it was "lily white."  It's just that many of us don't exactly consider the folks we work with every day to be "snakes."   You did paint with a pretty broad brush.

At the top of the ladder, you gotta choose your words real carefully.