cadet presolo wings??

[capchiro]

I recently had two cadets return from Glider encampment with presolo certificates and they are excited.  Who wouldn't be, right?  Problem is they are authorized to we wear presolo wing son their uniforms, but, Vanguard doesn't make them in cloth, only medal.  Does this mean they can wear medal wings on their BDU's?  Does anyone have any idea as to where to get cloth presolo wings?  I know this may seem as relatively unimportant, however to these young cadets, it is very improtant.  Also is CAP knowledgebase still down?  I tried to post this type of inquiry, but couldn't find the "ask question" button.  Thanks for your help.

[PhoenixRisen]

I recently had two cadets return from Glider encampment with presolo certificates and they are excited.  Who wouldn't be, right?  Problem is they are authorized to we wear presolo wing son their uniforms, but, Vanguard doesn't make them in cloth, only medal.  Does this mean they can wear medal wings on their BDU's?  Does anyone have any idea as to where to get cloth presolo wings?  I know this may seem as relatively unimportant, however to these young cadets, it is very improtant.  Also is CAP knowledgebase still down?  I tried to post this type of inquiry, but couldn't find the "ask question" button.  Thanks for your help.

Hm... the Hock Shop doesn't seem to carry them either. 

[Hawk200]

It's probably a case of they don't have them on the website, yet. I imagine that if you call Vanguard, they can probably set you up. Don't know how long you'll wait on the phone though.

[capchiro]

I talked to Vanguard and they told me that they don't have authorization from National to make make cloth presolo wings and couldn't until they got a letter from National.  I don't see why, since they make the medal ones.  She said it would take at least a couple of months to make them, once they got authorization.  Anymore ideas??

[Hawk200]

I talked to Vanguard and they told me that they don't have authorization from National to make make cloth presolo wings and couldn't until they got a letter from National.  I don't see why, since they make the medal ones.  She said it would take at least a couple of months to make them, once they got authorization.  Anymore ideas??

Wow. Funny, the first thing most cadets want to put their badges on is BDU's. Guess National didn't think that one through, or just doesn't care about the cloth versions.

Since National sent C&D letters out to a lot of places, there really isn't anyplace else to officially get CAP badges.

[Pylon]

I talked to Vanguard and they told me that they don't have authorization from National to make make cloth presolo wings and couldn't until they got a letter from National.  I don't see why, since they make the medal ones.  She said it would take at least a couple of months to make them, once they got authorization.  Anymore ideas??

Private source?  Since the CAP tri-prop is not in the pre-solo wings design, and since those same slick wings are in use by other agencies (such as AFROTC), those wings (without CAP distinctive emblems) should be able to be produced by an outside vendor without any reference to Civil Air Patrol in the transaction.  There are a handful of vendors out there who do-up embroidered insignia, and in fact, I think there was even a discussion or two here about it if you search well enough.

Good luck!  Somebody should be able to do them.

[Hawk200]

I talked to Vanguard and they told me that they don't have authorization from National to make make cloth presolo wings and couldn't until they got a letter from National.  I don't see why, since they make the medal ones.  She said it would take at least a couple of months to make them, once they got authorization.  Anymore ideas??

Private source?  Since the CAP tri-prop is not in the pre-solo wings design, and since those same slick wings are in use by other agencies (such as AFROTC), those wings (without CAP distinctive emblems) should be able to be produced by an outside vendor without any reference to Civil Air Patrol in the transaction.  There are a handful of vendors out there who do-up embroidered insignia, and in fact, I think there was even a discussion or two here about it if you search well enough.

Good luck!  Somebody should be able to do them.

Nice, hadn't thought of that angle.

Then again, some careful work with a seam ripper, or a pair of fine point scissors might work as well.

[Pylon]

Then again, some careful work with a seam ripper, or a pair of fine point scissors might work as well.

That, too!  That may actually be your quickest and best bet.

[jimmydeanno]

No, they are not authorized to wear metal wings on their BDUs.

Even if they didn't make them, I wouldn't tell them to wear the metal ones on the BDUs.  The uniform manual isn't a "well if it doesn't say I can't" thing, it expressly says what you can (well, that and the 37 suppliments and with approval from Vanguard) wear on your uniform.

Have you tried calling the Hock Shop? 1-800-THE-HOCK.

If they can only wear them on their blues for now, then so be it.  That's the way the cookie crumbles as they say...not to say, don't seek out methods of obtaining "cloth pre-solo" wings.  The cadets did accomplish a lot, but it's similar to the cadets that do NCSAs and don't have a patch but half of them do, or the seniors that earned cadet milestones that don't have a mini-medal.

[Galahad]

I recently had two cadets return from Glider encampment with pre-solo certificates and they are excited.  ... Does anyone have any idea as to where to get cloth presolo wings?  I know this may seem as relatively unimportant, however to these young cadets, it is very improtant.  Also is CAP knowledgebase still down?  I tried to post this type of inquiry, but couldn't find the "ask question" button.  Thanks for your help.

Have you tried asking the encampment director?  They should be able to give you a quick answer to what is probably a frequently asked question.  Normally the wings are presented to qualifying cadets along with the certificates at the encampment graduation ceremonies.  It's odd that home squadron cc's are having to hunt them up.

[Ladyhawk]

I can provide at least a partial answer but not a solution. 

Last year I served as the director for the NFA-Gliders that was held in Rome, GA.  At graduation we presented each cadet who had pre-soloed with metal pre-solo wings.  The cadets who soloed got metal wings and cloth wings.  Had cloth pre-solo wings been available, my pre-solo cadets would have received those as well.

I'm guessing that the glider encampment you're referring to is the one that GAWG put on rather than one of the national flight academies.  I'm a bit surprised that the actual wings weren't presented but we're all at the mercy of suppliers on that sort of thing. 

My recommendation to your cadets is to keep up their glider training so that they can solo (and therefore wear solo wings).  Fortunately, GAWG has a very good and very active glider training program.  Have them contact the GAWG glider program director, Lt. Col. Frank McDonald, and find out what the training schedule is for this autumn.  Fortunately, your squadron is within reasonable driving distance from the training location in Rome to make this a viable option.

[Jolt]

I know for a fact that cloth pre-solo wings aren't made.  I'm also quite surprised that no one here has lashed out about how worthless they think the wings are in the first place.  Also, pre-solo cadets aren't allowed to wear the cloth solo wings.  The only pre-solo wings are the metal ones to be worn with the blues.

Joe Molleur,
Pre-Solo Cadet, NFA-G 2006, Rome, GA
(Actually, I just soloed a C-172 today!)

[Hawk200]

I'm also quite surprised that no one here has lashed out about how worthless they think the wings are in the first place. 

That's already happened, you just didn't make it to that party.

The only pre-solo wings are the metal ones to be worn with the blues.

And we're also aware of that, too. This board has been around a little while.

Don't mean to be rude, although I'm sure it looks like it. But this isn't our first rodeo.

Edited for clarity.

[capchiro]

Gentlemen, referring to the last two posters, I am sure that you mean well, but would you please direct me to a cite that states the cadets aren't allowed to wear cloth presolo wings?  I would appreciate it, as it appears that CAPR 39-1 would authorize them to be worn, if they could locate them.  Perhaps I have mis-interpreted something (it wouldn't be the first time).  As far as whether they are worthless, I think not, especially to the cadets that spent the week, a bunch of money and effort on something they thought was very meaningful.  I mean, if presolo wings are worthless, aren't all of the bling we wear worthless??  It all means something to the wearer and to a presolo cadet, it means they have begun their road to becoming a pilot and the coveted Air Force Wings someday, hopefully.  Just as some Air Force Academy graduates earn jump wings while in school, they never jump again, but the jump wings aren't worthless.  It's all perspective and presolo wings don't detract from anyone else's bling so lighten up..

[isuhawkeye]

I understand your passion, but the members of this board tie bling with accomplishment.

Your example of an AFA cadet who earns his/her jump wings has done just that.  They have jumped.  They have completed the training, and completed the course. 

CAP has Pilot wings for those who have earned a pilots license.  We have Observer wings for those who have completed the observer qualification. 

We also have Solo Wings.  Many would argue that these are the wings for those cadets who are on their way to earning a pilots license, or those coveted AF wings. 

The pre-solo wing came out of the blue for cadets who haven't quite soloed.  They are often issued to cadets who finish a flight encampment, but couldn't solo.  Some of these cadets were weathered out, while others just couldn't complete the program in the required time frame. 

the argument has been that if a cadet wants to truly pursue flight they can get their solo wings done. 

[dwb]

(Actually, I just soloed a C-172 today!)

Woo hoo!  Congratulations!  Keep up your flight training, there's nothing cooler than CAP Pilot wings on a cadet.

[isuhawkeye]

accept maybe a cadet aircrew.

Again Great job on the solo.  !!!!!!!

Was your shirt tail taken???

[Jolt]

I really have nothing against pre-solo wings.  It does take a good deal of work to earn them and it shows that you've done something that not a lot of people are able to do.  And I think the reason they were made was for safety.  Instructor pilots shouldn't feel like they have to send someone solo when they're not 100% ready.  But that's not what we're talking about.

Sir, you raise an excellent point about being able to wear them on BDUs if they can be found.  CAPM 39-1 does say that aviation badges are worn 1/2" above the "U.S. Civil Air Patrol" tape on BDUs and pre-solo wings are listed under "aviation badges" in the picture.  I hadn't ever thought about it that way because every time I've ever said anything about pre-solo wings on CAP Talk I've been made fun of, so you can imagine my surprise.  I really hope you do find some cloth wings because those cadets deserve to wear them.

[capchiro]

In response to Isahawkeye, according to CAP regulations cadets are not allowed to solo on their first flight encampment.  They are not cadets that didn't complete the course or couldn't cut it.  They did everything that was expected of them and allowed.  According to your logic, the have completed the training and completed the course.  National recognizes this and issued them presolo wings.  This is about as good as it gets for a 14 year old cadet, so why do we want to give them less recognition for a job well done than we give any other CAP member that completes training?  I think that if National issues the presolo wings and and recognizes them we should do no less.  This is highly motivational for other cadets in the squadron and in the Wing.

And Jolt, thank you, kindred spirit..

[isuhawkeye]

Don't get me wrong. 

National has approved the device.  The member has completed the requirements, as such the devise should be rewarded, and warn.  Said devise should also be manufactured to meet the above requirements. 

I was simply trying to encapsulate the arguments, and discussions that have taken place many times on this forum. 

Most sincere congratulations on the accomplishment.