CAP Rank structure

[RiverAux]

I think the big questions are: Does the current system work well? Can it be improved upon? What specific problems do we have? How can those improvements assist in solving these problems?

At least according to the poll the consensus seems to be that it generally works well, but could probably be toughened up. 

[jpravain]

The reason I chose the USCG AUX style of command is the current culture does not work very well. Regarding the Army rank structure, most if not all Warrant Officers have some form of college education (and time as an enlisted soldier) as it is very competitive to get a flight slot. I am currently a Flight Dispatcher for San Antonio Airlife and most of the pilots who were prior military (Army Warrant Officers) have a college education. Back in the day, I cared alot about progressing through the CAP rank structure, but now I can really care less as I am more motivated toward ES. CAP has to have a rank structure just like any other paramilitary organization but I would prefer the admin title method especially since CAP is a corporation and seems to be getting further from the Air Force. The cadet program should keep the current rank structure.

Member
Personnel  Officer
Admin Officer
ES Officer
PA Officer
Comm Officer
Squadron XO
Squadron CO
Etc.

Uniform insignias will have to be changed/overhauled completely. No more rank epaulets similar to any branch of the military. A specific device for the qualified position can be worn in lieu of rank over the left/right breast pocket signifying the member's status within the squadron. For ES services, rank does not matter anyway - only mission qualifications. What is the motivation for rank in today's structure? Just to be called a Major, Lt Col, Col? Join the real military and have a real goal (money and career progression/seniority) for obtaining rank whether enlisted or officer. To me, CAP is not a career and it makes me laugh to hear that. You pay your dues diligently every year.

From Wikipedia:
A career is traditionally seen as a course of successive situations that make up a person's "worklife". A "career" in the 20th century referenced the series of jobs or positions by which one earned one's money.

Right now my career is some form of EMS and has been since I was 22 (now 32).

[JC004]

...Join the real military...

which makes us...a fake military?  I thought the Brazilian Civil Air Patrol was the fake one... 

[RogueLeader]

I would prefer the admin title method especially since CAP is a corporation and seems to be getting further from the Air Force.

Gee, this is a good thing?  I don't know about the rest of us, but i am quite happy that we are under the AF, and I would be much happier if we were much closer to the AF than we are now.  Scraping the rank would only push us away from the AF, and if we lost AF support, particularly of the $$$ sort, you can kiss CAP goodbye, unless you could give the Corp $10 Million a year for operations.  Last I checked, we have Admin Titles.  I'm an Administration Officer.  at one time I was PD, TCO,and for a time, R&R/ATCO.  Would I keep all of those Titles, or just my current one?

Rank not only shows your PD Level, but it also shows- to a certain extent, your connections outside the unit.  For example, as a SMWOG, you probably know just some in your local squadron, by the time you get 2lt, you know the unit pretty well, as starting to know those from other local units.  For the 1Lt, the member knows more from other units, and starting at Group/Wing. . . . . .saving time. . . . . By the time you hit Lt. Col. You know those at Region and some at National.  By the time you get to Col, you know quite a few people all around.  No this isn't hard and set- it all depends on how the person is socially.  If a person is reserved, that member knows fewer people than a socially engaged member; thus the more engaged member may know as many, if not more, than a reserved people at a higher Grade.

[jpravain]

JC004  - You are taking my words out of context. You (the CAP) are NOT the military and never will be. Right now your status is US Air Force Aux (OFF) unless you are currently on an Air Force assigned mission. I never made the current rules or situation. Truth be told, CAP is getting further way from the Air Force regardless of reasons. I do not like the fact that it is but it is.

RogueLeader - Again, this is just my opinion. So take it with a grain of salt if you will. The Professional Development falls into the same category as CAP as a career. Now in regard to command/admin title, you would be qualified in those positions (but you would wear your current title). Yes, I know CAP currently has Admin as a title  I don't think the Air Force/CAP came up with the current rank structure to help facilitate social skills in the squadron/group/wing/region/national.
The Air Force might be happy if we chose to eliminate our rank structure w/their approval. I know they weren't happy when one of the former National Cmdr's promoted himself to Major General and the Air Force punished CAP with the maroon epaulets. Were you in CAP at that time? They were horrible and most people in CAP I knew wore BDU's/Flightsuits most of the time to prevent wearing those. Eliminating the current rank structure would also eliminate political promotions as well.

[ZigZag911]

Eliminating the current rank structure would also eliminate political promotions as well.

Don't think so...it ain't entirely about the titles, uniforms, and costume jewelry....some, in fact probably most of the intrigue and politicking are about POWER!!!

This may seem pathetic (sure does to me!) but I honestly believe it's the case....so whether you called someone "District Supervisor" or "Group Commander" will make no difference whatsoever as to how much some people are willing to do to get the job.

I should know....I am a former group CC, and still have the sharp implements sticking out of my shoulder blades where my 'successor' stuck them!

Now, if folks will do that to oversee a handful of squadrons, just think what they'll do to get a corporate officer position....preferably a national one.

[RogueLeader]

Air Force punished CAP with the maroon epaulets. Were you in CAP at that time? They were horrible and most people in CAP I knew wore BDU's/Flightsuits most of the time to prevent wearing those.

Actually, the maroon epaulets were a requested item.  Along with it was a request for a Maroon Beret.  The Beret was shot down, but the berry boards were approved.  This was told me by a member close to the project.  I know that many will refuse to believe my source- who WILL remain anonymous, but there it is.

[ZigZag911]

Air Force punished CAP with the maroon epaulets. Were you in CAP at that time? They were horrible and most people in CAP I knew wore BDU's/Flightsuits most of the time to prevent wearing those.

Actually, the maroon epaulets were a requested item.  Along with it was a request for a Maroon Beret.  The Beret was shot down, but the berry boards were approved.  This was told me by a member close to the project.  I know that many will refuse to believe my source- who WILL remain anonymous, but there it is.

Accepting the accuracy of this report, this has got to rank right alongside the NASCAR fiasco as one of the silliest things CAP leadership has ever done!

[jpravain]

ZigZag911 - I agree with you regarding POWER.

[RogueLeader]

Air Force punished CAP with the maroon epaulets. Were you in CAP at that time? They were horrible and most people in CAP I knew wore BDU's/Flightsuits most of the time to prevent wearing those.

Actually, the maroon epaulets were a requested item.  Along with it was a request for a Maroon Beret.  The Beret was shot down, but the berry boards were approved.  This was told me by a member close to the project.  I know that many will refuse to believe my source- who WILL remain anonymous, but there it is.

Accepting the accuracy of this report, this has got to rank right alongside the NASCAR fiasco as one of the silliest things CAP leadership has ever done!

Not sure of what the NASCAR fiasco is about, but I do agree that without the beret, the epaulets don't look good- thus silly

[ZigZag911]

Obviously, then, you are a wise person!

[RogueLeader]

Obviously, then, you are a wise person!

Not sure about wise, but I do try to reasonable. . .

[JC004]

JC004  - You are taking my words out of context. You (the CAP) are NOT the military and never will be. Right now your status is US Air Force Aux (OFF) unless you are currently on an Air Force assigned mission. I never made the current rules or situation. Truth be told, CAP is getting further way from the Air Force regardless of reasons. I do not like the fact that it is but it is.

I wasn't aware that CAP was attempted to be the military.  I didn't join the Air Force - I joined Civil Air Patrol.  Call me crazy, but I hate the term "Real Military" as it's used by some folks in CAP.  You see, I think that CAP members should view themselves as civilians volunteering their time, energy, and large buckets of cash to aid the US Air Force in its domestic responsibilities.

I don't think there's a real and fake military - I think it should be one team.  Air Force folks will treat CAP members based on how they act.  If they behave like civilians doing a job for the Air Force (or other federal agency, still being in Auxiliary status) rather than pretending like there are real and fake Captains or Majors, they are going to be treated as professionals.  If they act like they are playing dress-up, they are going to be treated that way.  I largely support doing away with the current promotion structure because it's about attitudes and attitudes matter. 

[jpravain]

JC004 - touché

[sandman]

2bLT; JC004,

Why join CAP then?

Why join an organization and try to change it's culture so radically rather than change youself to fit into the culture?

If your not happy with wearing the CAP bling, then go polo or join another organization: Red Cross for example. Visit www.usafreedomcorps.gov for other fine examples that might suit your needs.

Be well..
LT

[JC004]

2bLT; JC004,

Why join CAP then?

Why join an organization and try to change it's culture so radically rather than change youself to fit into the culture?

If your not happy with wearing the CAP bling, then go polo or join another organization: Red Cross for example. Visit www.usafreedomcorps.gov for other fine examples that might suit your needs.

Be well..
LT

I don't care about the means, just the end result.  I have mixed feelings about the rank structure.  The uniforms are fine by me, although I would like to see less of them.  The Coast Guard Auxiliary has the uniforms and does without the titles just fine.  By whatever means we can create a better working relationship with the Air Force and better accomplish our Congressionally-assigned missions, we should do that.  Success in any organization depends on culture, attitudes, and the like.  This is why it is important to constantly examine our methods.

[ZigZag911]

JC, with all respect for your right to your opinions, you do seem uncomfortable with CAP as it actually exists.

Many of us who remember when we were fulltime "AUX ON" want that status restored.

[JC004]

JC, with all respect for your right to your opinions, you do seem uncomfortable with CAP as it actually exists.

Many of us who remember when we were fulltime "AUX ON" want that status restored.

I am not happy with things like spending 3/4 of the National Board meeting discussing uniforms or term extensions that have already failed a vote.  Why should I be comfortable with that? To be clear, I want CAP to be the Air Force Auxiliary.  I want CAP to develop a closer relationship with the Air Force and stop pissing on them.  If that means maybe altering the uniform, rank structure, corporate missions, and other fun stuff like that, then that's fine by me.

[sandman]

I don't care about the means, just the end result.  I have mixed feelings about the rank structure.  The uniforms are fine by me, although I would like to see less of them.

I see your point and I agree with having less uniforms. In fact I believe that the weight/height restrictions should be done away with. My opinion is that all members should wear the AF uniform just as CG AUX does (I've seen some horizontally big people in the uniform!). Fuzzies should wear the AF uniform too just as in CG AUX. We're not active duty as many point out, but we should be able to wear the same uniform to identify with our parent organization. The active duty AF maintain height/weight appearances for a good reason....combat readiness. Besides, a rotund fuzzy in an AF uniform would never be mistaken for an active duty member; you wouldn't need glaring shoulder marks, double breasted suits, or altered bling to show that you're not actually in the AF

The Coast Guard Auxiliary has the uniforms and does without the titles just fine.  By whatever means we can create a better working relationship with the Air Force and better accomplish our Congressionally-assigned missions, we should do that.  Success in any organization depends on culture, attitudes, and the like.  This is why it is important to constantly examine our methods.

The CG AUX works well in it's own sphere of adult members. The difference is that we have a cadet program we're charged with overseeing. The cadet program is by intention to mimic a military culture and rank titles for officers are an important part of the culture.

Lose the cadet program and I have no problem with CG AUX style positional identifiers.

On the other side of the coin, if the CG AUX would get off it's butt and incorporate a maritime cadet program (I'm starting a white paper on that), then for me it's "see ya later CAP" without any exceptions. Let's see....hmmm...USCG Maritime Cadets....USCGMC....AF blue shirts, AF blue pants, ODU's, Water and air search activities, ground search activities, water safety for cadets, maritime domain awareness......lot's of stuff for cadets to do.....starting with a clean slate....rank structure from E-1 to E-9 only.....glaring orange safety vests with SOLAS tape.....excellent adult program already in place.....wow, I don't know....

/r
LT

[JC004]

...
The CG AUX works well in it's own sphere of adult members. The difference is that we have a cadet program we're charged with overseeing. The cadet program is by intention to mimic a military culture and rank titles for officers are an important part of the culture.
...

One good reason why my feelings are mixed about changing the structure.  Whatever we change in rank, uniforms, etc. is going to have pros and cons.  A very basic example would be temporarily driving up costs by phasing out some uniforms.  Hopefully soon the National Board as a whole stops  focusing so heavily on the petty (albeit, easy to handle) stuff.  Addressing the promotion system would be one smart thing, since how we promote directly impacts the training in which members participate.