Proposal 3: Uniform Issues

[jb512]

Ehh, I'd disagree.  The blues/corporate with epaulets, nametag, and wings isn't very gaudy at all.  I'm not fond of the polo as a uniform option at all.

I wouldn't quite dump the polo shirt uniform, if they'd standardize on a specific type/color/weave gray trouser it's not that bad.

I prefer Corporate Blue over Corporate Gray.

I'd dump it for official business.  I'm in the group who wants to standardize and limit ourselves to blues/corporates, flight suits, and BDUs/BBDUs and that's it.

[floridacyclist]

I don't really consider it a uniform...although at our squadron, I've started listing it as the uniform of the day on PT night (when the cadets are in civvie shorts) and listing real uniforms the other nights.

To me, it's like a CAP equivalent to civilian business casual.

[jb512]

When trying to work with civillian professionals, dressing like a military officer only sharpens the divide, especially when they're probably already convinced you're some kind of Whacker that couldn't cut it on the volunteer fire department. Dressing up like you are playing soldier does not always work when you're working with civillians. Another example I can think of is an EAA meeting; EAA is one of the most unmilitary organizations I can think of, yet when we are talking Aerospace-related issues (remember, tha OTHER mission of ours?) it is to our advantage to not look out of place.

I don't agree at all.  Walking before an audience in a groomed, tailored, and polished military uniform and presenting yourself as a professional with a purpose in life will do much more to influence an audience than walking in feeling like you're playing soldier after you jump off the brush truck in a polo shirt.

[Major Carrales]

When trying to work with civillian professionals, dressing like a military officer (especially when everyone knows that you're not) only sharpens the divide; some of these folks are probably already convinced you're some kind of Whacker that couldn't cut it on the volunteer fire department. Dressing up like you are playing soldier does not always work when you're working with civillians. Another example I can think of is an EAA meeting; EAA is one of the most unmilitary organizations I can think of, yet when we are talking Aerospace-related issues (remember, that OTHER mission of ours?) it is to our advantage to not look out of place.

On the contary, we are the Civil Air Patrol have have earned, via the sacrifice of those that came before and our continued efforts, the right to wear that uniform.  Again, if you want to join an outfit where the outfit is a "golf shirt," I think there lies your destiny. However, if you want to be part of a "unique form or service," then get minimum service dress or a field uniform and do the job that continues to warrant that uniform.

Whackers?!  How dare you even make the link...the Civil Air Patrol is a real service, not people going around with no authority nor stated purpose.  I'll give credence to your "Volunteer Fire Dept" quote when such organizations operate the world's largest fleet of civilian aircraft. Your comments are insultingto both organizations. Case in point... Volunteer Fire Departments wear uniforms like REGULARS, are they WHACKERS?  When they dawn the helmet, hooks and ladders of the trade, are they any less fire fighters because they don't get paid?  I think not.

Simply put, the Volunteer Fire Department isn't "playing FIREMAN" anymore than we are "Playing AIR FORCE."

Most people are just glad we  are there to help.  The uniform says to them that we are CAP, not employees of local discount stores or members of the LPGA.

Sometimes, low-key is the way to go.

Could that be why people don't know who we are?

Fact is, we need to develop a CAP culture that makes us idenfiable as CAP, minimum basic service dress and a field/flight uniform is not too much to ask.  It's a buttoned short sleevedshirt and trousers.

Not unlike these professional uniforms...

[jb512]

When trying to work with civillian professionals, dressing like a military officer (especially when everyone knows that you're not) only sharpens the divide; some of these folks are probably already convinced you're some kind of Whacker that couldn't cut it on the volunteer fire department. Dressing up like you are playing soldier does not always work when you're working with civillians. Another example I can think of is an EAA meeting; EAA is one of the most unmilitary organizations I can think of, yet when we are talking Aerospace-related issues (remember, that OTHER mission of ours?) it is to our advantage to not look out of place.

On the contary, we are the Civil Air Patrol have have earned, via the sacrifice of those that came before and our continued efforts, the right to wear that uniform.  Again, if you want to join an outfit where the outfit is a "golf shirt," I think there lies your destiny. However, if you want to be part of a "unique form or service," then get minimum service dress or a field uniform and do the job that continues to warrant that uniform.

Whackers?!  How dare you even make the link...the Civil Air Patrol is a real service, not people going around with no authority nor stated purpose.  I'll give credence to your "Volunteer Fire Dept" quote when such organizations operate the world's largest fleet of civilian aircraft. Your comments are insultingto both organizations. Case in point... Volunteer Fire Departments wear uniforms like REGULARS, are they WHACKERS?  When they dawn the helmet, hooks and ladders of the trade, are they any less fire fighters because they don't get paid?  I think not.

Simply put, the Volunteer Fire Department isn't "playing FIREMAN" anymore than we are "Playing AIR FORCE."

Most people are just glad we  are there to help.  The uniform says to them that we are CAP, not employees of local discount stores or members of the LPGA.

Sometimes, low-key is the way to go.

Could that be why people don't know who we are?

Fact is, we need to develop a CAP culture that makes us idenfiable as CAP, minimum basic service dress and a field/flight uniform is not too much to ask.  It's a buttoned short sleevedshirt and trousers.

Not unlike these professional uniforms...

I couldn't have said it better myself.  I'm proud to wear my uniform and at no time have I ever felt like a "wannabe".  Maybe if a few people started holding their heads up a little higher we might be a more known agency and gain that much more in professionalism.

[floridacyclist]

I don't see epaulets or military rank on those "uniforms" either. Face it, sometimes the best uniform is a non-military uniform, especially when others are not wearing uniforms...and we still have the seal to tell folks who we are, and as long as we're all wearing hte same variant (instead one of 16 different flavors), it is still uniform. There is nothing wrong with fitting in when it is called for...and you can still wear your dress uniform to the after-season banquet.

Part of the problem is the airs we put on. Sure, I'm proud to be in CAP and if you read back I have been among the people who have been slamming on the non-uniforms for normal CAP wear. I just know that acting like we're God's gift to emergency management is not the way to influence friends and influence people. At times, we haven't even been allowed in the EOC but I hope that changes sooner or later. The only way we're going to make those changes is through quiet professionalism and blending in / working with the EOC staff, not doing our best to show them how many ribbons we have. Trust me, if they don't know you're in CAP, it's because they can't read the big 3" circle on your chest.

How hard is it to understand that anything past a polo shirt is way overdressed for the average EOC at an advanced stage of alert? Besides, white or light blue shirts don't hold up well to 16 hour duty days.

[jb512]

I don't see epaulets or military rank on those "uniforms" either. Face it, sometimes the best uniform is a non-military uniform, especially when others are not wearing uniforms...and we still have the seal to tell folks who we are, and as long as we're all wearing hte same variant (instead one of 16 different flavors), it is still uniform. There is nothing wrong with fitting in when it is called for...and you can still wear your dress uniform to the after-season banquet.

Part of the problem is the airs we put on. Sure, I'm proud to be in CAP and if you read back I have been among the people who have been slamming on the non-uniforms for normal CAP wear. I just know that acting like we're God's gift to emergency management is not the way to influence friends and influence people. At times, we haven't even been allowed in the EOC but I hope that changes sooner or later. The only way we're going to make those changes is through quiet professionalism and blending in / working with the EOC staff, not doing our best to show them how many ribbons we have. Trust me, if they don't know you're in CAP, it's because they can't read the big 3" circle on your chest.

How hard is it to understand that anything past a polo shirt is way overdressed for the average EOC at an advanced stage of alert? Besides, white or light blue shirts don't hold up well to 16 hour duty days.

Because many people wear much more than a polo shirt in EOCs for longer than 16 hours.  Try wearing a vest and duty gear, or a white EMS shirt in an EOC.  A blue AF shirt is much more comfortable in comparison.

No one is doubting your commitment to the team, we just want a little more professionalism out of it.  When we start holding ourselves to a higher standard, including dress, then people will take notice of that.  We're not god's gift to emergency management, we're just professionals with a job that we take pride in and that is demonstrated more indirectly than coming out and saying it.

[floridacyclist]

Professionalism also means knowing what to wear and when to wear it. It doesn't look good to CAP for our folks to show up wearing a starched white shirt (at least mine usually is) when everyone else is wearing polos and department Ts.

If you want to see how folks dress inside the EOC when it's activated, check out the first picture at http://www.tallahasseecap.org/pdfs/charley-aar.pdf . Note the t-shirts and polos. Incidentally, we were wearing BDUs for that one as we were getting ready to go out into the field, but our IMT folks were all in either CAP polos or FL SERT (State Emergncy Response Team) polos...and they looked like they were part of the professional Emergency Management team. Anyone in a dress uniform would have looked pretty much out of place and would have probably caused folks to wonder if they were insecure about something.

The Stennis EOC was even less formal as many of the folks there had already lost all their clothes....shorts and polos IDing your agency were the UOD.

For that matter, I remember talking to another RECON team leader out in Navarre the morning after Dennis and thinking how much more comfortable he looked in his Grey pants and blue polo while I sweated and chafed my butt off in my BDUs (which can get a little uncomfortable after 16 hrs of riding around in them - it's not like we were hacking our way through the woods)....and made a mental note to pack my grey Dickies or a pair of grey BDU pants and blue polo next time we did something like that. Sure some folks wear more than that, but they are usually in ops, not overhead...wearing all our web gear to a planning meeting would look pretty stupid.

I guess teamwork is at least part of what it comes down to...Emergency Management is very much a team effort and trying to dress differently from everyone else makes it look like you somehow don't consider yourself part of that team. Once you're inside that EOC as part of the IMT overhead, you are first and foremost a SERT member, not a CAP member...and that goes for every other agency representative that is there. We need to learn to be part of something that is much bigger than us and stop worrying about broadcasting who we are. Trust me, the people who matter know who we are, and we look much better by quietly doing the best job we can (in a proper and approved uniform of course - which in this case might well be the polo) in a competent and professional manner than by showing up in a starched white uniform shirt - which won't stay starched long in this heat.

On the other hand, if we were playing with National Guard or another "uniformed Service" like Police, EMS etc, then a military uniform or corporate equivalent would be most appropriate. You just have to know when to wear what....and no, I do not consider the polo appropriate for working with cadets.

You might note that the military has their polo shirt uniform that they wear when it's appropriate....look at all the recruiters running around in dark blue polos and white pants (which happen to all be the exact same pants by the way, something we should learn from); are they considered professional? You can also do a search for "air force" "polo shirt" uniform and see that this is not such a CAP-only idea. Even the RealMilitary@ recognizes that a military-styled uniform is not always the best choice, yet here we are trying to out-military the military again.

With that in mind, I see nothing inconsistent with the polo shirt and the earlier suggestion of us having one CAP uniform for each Air Force uniform...ours is just worn with grey pants (which should be standardized) not white; we just need to get the message across about when to wear the appropriate uniform, which 90% of the time is NOT the polo.

[SARMedTech]

I recently met with the officers of a large, metropolitan fire department about the role of CERT and the MRC in Emergency Services as my area is gearing up for another month of heat. I walked into the room wearing a CERT polo and chinos only to be met by a group of fire department officers in their service dress...creased navy blue trousers, patent leather shoes and white shirts, complete with brass and commendation ribbons. Think of it this way: we may meet with people whose corporate "uniform" is dockers and polo-shirts, our corporate uniform is the service dress. If we want people to take us seriously, we also want them to take us seriously for what we are: The Unites States Air Force Auxiliary and that should be reflected in how we dress. Besides, the style of polo shirt available to us is about 10 years out of date. They're tacky. I bought one and sent it back.

[Dragoon]

If the National Guard puts a rep in the EOC, does he wear a golf shirt?

[floridacyclist]

BDUs. I have yet to see one in Class Bs. Doesn't really matter because they usually have a vest on anyway identifying their position, which is decidedly much higher than CAP's on the totem pole.

Most state offices use business casual as the "uniform of the day"...polos, slacks. Some wear button-up shirts and ties in which case it is called "business dress" or some such nonsense like that. The EOC is decidedly much more relaxed with jeans and polos most of the time. Any officer in a dress uniform is going to stick out like a sore thumb and cause questions like "Who's the guy in the Russian Navy uniform?". Dress uniforms give the impression of not being there to work, but to supervise and there's not much room for that kind of attitude, plus being overdressed can be just as bad as being underdressed when it comes to looking professional.

If the National Guard ran the EOC, I would want everyone in BDUs as well..to show unity and teamwork. If they had an event and requested class Bs, I would expect CAP to show up in SS blue/white shirt. It is all depending on what the prevailing uniform is and anyone here should know that I am about as anti-polo as they come when it comes to using it as a day-to-day uniform. I just think that they do have a time and place to be worn, it's just not at the squadron meeting or most CAP-ran activities.

When I did my ICS TTT, I wore the polo every day except the last one when I wore corporate and felt very much at ease the entire time except for the last day when I looked like I was trying to show off amidst all the polos (the designated dress code at Emmitsburg).

[Dragoon]

So if the National Guard puts their EOC rep in BDUs, why the heck would we be in golf shirts.

Also, consider this - USAF or the ANG doesn't have an official golf shirt uniform, and they've done just fine for 50 years.  :-)

There are times  in my Army day job that I've attended functions where a uniform would be inappropriate, and I've worn civilian attire.  No need for an official U.S. Army golf shirt or blazer crest.  I think CAP could do the same.  For those rare occasions when uniforms would be out of place, just get the Wing CC to authorize civilian attire.

99% of the golf shirters aren't in EOCs.  They're wearing them to CAP-only events, right alongside service dress or flight suit wearing members. 

I like the golf shirt.  It's comfy.  But it's not neccesary.  And it's an oddball "uniform" with no USAF equivalent that doesn't even display rank. 

[floridacyclist]

Sure they do, they just don't call it the golf shirt. What do you think recruiters wear with their white pants?

As for wearing civvies to the EOC, isn't that a little far to the other side? You act like you don't want folks to know who we work for.

PS It's not just literally "in the EOC", it's when taking classes with civillians etc. The more you can try to fit in with them, the better you'll be received, and like it or not, these are the people we want to play ball with because they have potential missions for us and money to spend.

[RiverAux]

Frankly, I don't really care what anyone outside of CAP is wearing.  I will wear the uniform that gives me the most flexibility in responding to potential tasks that I might get involved in.  That is why I usually wear the BDU since it is appropriate for just about everything I personally might do during a mission.  If that results in me being the only one in a military uniform in a room full of those in regular civilians clothes, so be it.

[Hawk200]

Also, consider this - USAF or the ANG doesn't have an official golf shirt uniform, and they've done just fine for 50 years.  :-)

Come to think of it, in the last couple of years, both the Army and the Air Force have approved a casual uniform for recruiters and their assistants, consisting of a polo type shirt, and khakis.

I don't care for our extreme diversity of uniforms, but there is precedent for those casual types now.

[floridacyclist]

And I think it should be noted that my acceptance of the more casual uniforms is very circumstantial and limited primarily to those times that we may wish to work more closely with civillians without intimidating them...I still do not think they should replace military uniforms and their corporate equivalents in day-to-day use, especially in CP.

My wife was just made DCC and the first thing we did was go out and get her a set of BDUs although she has almost zero interest in ES....it just made sense to have something more than an aviator shirt or golf shirt to choose from for cadet activities.

[Hawk200]

And I think it should be noted that my acceptance of the more casual uniforms is very circumstantial and limited primarily to those times that we may wish to work more closely with civillians without intimidating them...I still do not think they should replace military uniforms and their corporate equivalents in day-to-day use, especially in CP.

Agreed. Wholeheartedly. But we don't need the extreme number of uniforms that we have.

My wife was just made DCC and the first thing we did was go out and get her a set of BDUs although she has almost zero interest in ES....it just made sense to have something more than an aviator shirt or gold shirt to choose from for cadet activities.

Sounds practical. One question: "Gold" shirt?

[floridacyclist]

Read the edited text

[Dragoon]

Sure they do, they just don't call it the golf shirt. What do you think recruiters wear with their white pants?

As for wearing civvies to the EOC, isn't that a little far to the other side? You act like you don't want folks to know who we work for.

PS It's not just literally "in the EOC", it's when taking classes with civillians etc. The more you can try to fit in with them, the better you'll be received, and like it or not, these are the people we want to play ball with because they have potential missions for us and money to spend.

You miss my point a bit.  There is no USAF golf shirt.  Some local units come up with special "civvies" for specific guys (like recruiters) to wear to specific events.  But there is NO USAF sanctioned golf shirt that any member can buy at clothing sales and wear.

As for classes, you can wear civvies.  No need for a special golf shirt.  If there was such a need, USAF would have identified it years ago.

[Dragoon]

Also, consider this - USAF or the ANG doesn't have an official golf shirt uniform, and they've done just fine for 50 years.  :-)

Come to think of it, in the last couple of years, both the Army and the Air Force have approved a casual uniform for recruiters and their assistants, consisting of a polo type shirt, and khakis.

I don't care for our extreme diversity of uniforms, but there is precedent for those casual types now.

Not exactly.  I haven't seen the Army "casual uniform" in AR 670-1 or any G1 guidance, so it's not an Army thing.  At best the recruiting command authorized a specific set of "civvies" for a very specific purpose.

In the same way, Florida Wing, if they truly saw the need, could authorize their EOC guy to wear any piece of civilian CAP gear from Vanguard to the EOC.

The day a soldier or airman can walk into clothing sales, pick up a golf shirt and wear it to work because he feels like it is the day we need such a uniform.  Until then, just order folks into CAP labled civvies for very specific purposes.  The rest of us can stay in service dress, flight gear or BDUs.  Or the corporate equivalent.