Proposal 2: CAP Professional Development and Rank/Grade

[ZigZag911]

That would be an incentive to step up and take a staff/command job.

Rank will not mean anything until we make it mean something.

Adding more requirements/TIG/TIS/Education is not going to help the basic fact that a CAP Lt Col has the same responsibilities and obligations as a brand new SMWOG.
 
So the only thing to do is to tie the rank to specific jobs.

Zig....you indicate that you would rather keep your rank even if the don't mean anything....which is fine by me.....I too would like to keep my Capt Bars but the fix to the "problem" is easy.

I agree rank can be a motivator to take on more responsibility, and support that concept.

Doesn't the CG Aux let "past" officers continue to wear the insignia of their former role? Why couldn't we do that?

LM, I did not say I wanted to keep my rank even if it is meaningless.
I was a Cadet Warrant Officer, and then a senior member Warrant Officer = been there, done that, got the T-shirt!

I feel flight officer or warrant officer grades would be appropriate for for the 'single minded' amongst us who want to do ONE thing (whether it is fly, ground team, aerospace, finance, cadet programs) and are also reluctant or unwilling to accept significant leadership roles....in other words, technical experts.

[ZigZag911]

The problem with CAP rank today is that you can not look, for instance, at a captain or major and presume that officer has a certain basic knowledge about CAP.

I would like to bring some degree of standardization to PD and promotions.

I would also like to throw as many regulatory obstacles as possible in the way of individuals who give their cronies undeserved and unearned grades.....as unrealistic a goal as that may be!

[ddelaney103]

I hate to break up the mutual admiration society, but I do think there is a problem.

I keep hearing people talking out of both sides of their mouth: first they say their grade is a "CAP thing," but then they rail about someone taking away the oak leaves that they "earned."

If it is a "CAP thing" then it shouldn't matter if we use AF grade, FO/WO grade, or something off the wall like 1-5 tri-props on the boards.  Bring that up and we start hearing about how they "earned it."

The problem is it isn't a "CAP thing," and never was.  We wear AF-style suits and AF-style grade.  To the unenlightened (which is pretty much most of the military and almost all of the rest of the US) they don't get that "well, I know that you may recognize this as the Lt Col grade you use in the military and, yes, we call ourselves "Lt Col" - but it means something entirely different from what everyone thinks it means."

I feel their pain, because I don't get the "it looks like a duck, calls itself a duck, salutes like a duck, but isn't really a duck at all," either.

One of our IC's decided to start promoting.  When asked why, he related a story from a search he took over from another IC.  While he was running it, one of the target's family came to him and asked if they thought the search was a lost cause and were winding it down.  He said no and asked how he got this idea.

His answer?  "Well, yesterday the IC was a Lt Col, and today it was a Capt..."

Grade, as we used to say in my youth, is "an outward and visible sign of an inward and spiritual grace."  For most people, you will never get the chance to explain the oddness that is CAP grade.  They will just think we are weird and will never ask for an explanation.

That is why I think we should junk the bars, leaves, and eagles altogether.  You are right that CAP can do it any way they want - let's just not take anyone else's symbols for a ride while we do it.

[Hawk200]

I keep hearing people talking out of both sides of their mouth: first they say their grade is a "CAP thing," but then they rail about someone taking away the oak leaves that they "earned."

Where's the double talk? If I meet all the requirements under the Professional Develeopment program for promotion to Lt Col, then I have indeed "earned" it.

The way I would have earned it is through the CAP program. That's the "CAP thing".

It is different from the way military officers would earn Lt Col. The ways don't cross. An Army officer moves forward by learning to manage ground combat, an Air Force officer by learning air campaigns. An "Army thing" and an "Air Force thing". Each service has it's own thing. And we don't operate like either one of them.

We use standardized officer ranks. It's a lot simpler. Most people coming into the program learn fairly quickly what the rank system is, and cadets learn it too. Why should we create an arbitrary system (which it would be)? CAP cadets going into the military can quite often gain advance rank upon initial entry due to their exposure to a similar environment as the military. Similar enough that there is little transition. Why change that too?

Besides, who here honestly believes that trashing our current ranks would even be approved? I doubt it would happen, for a number of reasons.

[ColonelJack]

The problem with CAP rank today is that you can not look, for instance, at a captain or major and presume that officer has a certain basic knowledge about CAP.

Beg pardon?  That's exactly what it does mean.  The only thing you can't tell with any certainty is whether they were prior military service or not.

I would like to bring some degree of standardization to PD and promotions.

I would think the promotions are standardized to professional development right now.  Without prior commissioned service, you can't make 2nd Lt without Level I.  You can't make 1st Lt without a tech rating in Level II.  You can't make Captain without completing Level II.  You can't make Major without Level III.  You can't make Lt Col without completing Level IV.  What could be more standardized than that?

I would also like to throw as many regulatory obstacles as possible in the way of individuals who give their cronies undeserved and unearned grades.....as unrealistic a goal as that may be!

Heheheheheh.  I think I know what you mean here.

Jack

[ColonelJack]

I hate to break up the mutual admiration society, but I do think there is a problem.

I keep hearing people talking out of both sides of their mouth: first they say their grade is a "CAP thing," but then they rail about someone taking away the oak leaves that they "earned."

What are you talking about?  There's no double-talk here.  CAP regulations specify what must be done to earn a specific grade.  If I met the standards set by those regulations, then I bloody well earned my leaves.  See, the difference here is -- I knew going in that my bars, and later leaves, didn't mean the same thing as those worn by the RealMilitary™.  I didn't earn mine the same way they did.  And I also never lost one second of sleep about it, either.  I earned mine under the existing regulations of the service auxiliary I joined.  So, for that matter, did you.

If it is a "CAP thing" then it shouldn't matter if we use AF grade, FO/WO grade, or something off the wall like 1-5 tri-props on the boards.  Bring that up and we start hearing about how they "earned it."

Your issue here, then, is with Gill Robb Wilson, Fiorello LaGuardia, and the other founders of CAP.  Because it was their decision to make CAP an auxiliary of the Army Air Corps -- which meant using AAC uniforms, ranks, etc.  And because we stayed in that billet as the AAC became the AF, that's what we use.  And we use them the way we were originally intended to use them.

Look, CAP rank was never, ever, ever, ever intended to mean the same thing as active-duty military rank.  It is our rank system.  And before you go off about, "Let's not use their symbols, then," tell that to every single police and sheriff's department that has corporals, sergeants, lieutenants, captains, colonels, etc.  They use 'em too.  I don't hear you railing about that.

The problem is it isn't a "CAP thing," and never was.  We wear AF-style suits and AF-style grade.  To the unenlightened (which is pretty much most of the military and almost all of the rest of the US) they don't get that "well, I know that you may recognize this as the Lt Col grade you use in the military and, yes, we call ourselves "Lt Col" - but it means something entirely different from what everyone thinks it means."

They also probably don't give a flying hoop about it!  In all the time I was in public in my uniform I never heard one person wonder if my rank meant the same as someone in the RealMilitary™.  Not once.  I also would find it hard to believe that an AF officer seeing me in my CAP uniform would blink twice about my rank.  If he sees the CAP trappings on my uniform he knows my rank isn't the same as an active-duty light colonel's.  He also probably doesn't care.  It wouldn't be an issue to him.  Why is it an issue to you?

I feel their pain, because I don't get the "it looks like a duck, calls itself a duck, salutes like a duck, but isn't really a duck at all," either.

Your logic totally escapes me.  Reading your words, what I gather is ... you want our CAP grade to mean what military officer grade means.  And since it doesn't -- and, given the structure of CAP, it never will -- we should junk it and come up with our own.

You do realize, of course, that there is no way that is going to happen.  Hell will freeze over.  The Cubs will win the World Series ... after beating Tampa Bay in seven nerve-wracking games.  Cincinnati will win the Super Bowl with Michael Vick at quarterback and Pacman Jones carrying the ball for him -- and NBA referees will legally bet on the games.  The National Board and NEC and BoG is never, ever going to buy into that idea.  Just ain't gonna happen, because to them -- and to the Air Force -- and to most of CAP's membership -- this "problem" you cite isn't a problem, it's a non-issue.

Grade, as we used to say in my youth, is "an outward and visible sign of an inward and spiritual grace."  For most people, you will never get the chance to explain the oddness that is CAP grade.  They will just think we are weird and will never ask for an explanation.

There's nothing to explain.  Our grade is our grade.  Police captains have to go through dozens of different hoops than ours, or AF captains -- does that mean they shouldn't use railroad tracks for rank? 

That is why I think we should junk the bars, leaves, and eagles altogether.  You are right that CAP can do it any way they want - let's just not take anyone else's symbols for a ride while we do it.

When police departments, sheriff's departments, etc., do that, I'll consider the idea as having merit.  We're not the military.  Neither are they.  They use the insignia and titles.  So do we.

Maybe you can fix the problem when you become National Commander ... but you're going to run into a major-league brick wall with AF, tradition, membership, etc.

Jack

[RogueLeader]

^^Thank you ColonelJack

[ddelaney103]

I keep hearing people talking out of both sides of their mouth: first they say their grade is a "CAP thing," but then they rail about someone taking away the oak leaves that they "earned."

Where's the double talk? If I meet all the requirements under the Professional Develeopment program for promotion to Lt Col, then I have indeed "earned" it.

The way I would have earned it is through the CAP program. That's the "CAP thing".

Yes, you "earned it" under the CAP system, but you then use a symbol given gravitas by another's system, in this case the military.  I don't begrudge anyone their Wilson or Garber - just their "right" to be Majors or Lt Col's.

It is different from the way military officers would earn Lt Col. The ways don't cross. An Army officer moves forward by learning to manage ground combat, an Air Force officer by learning air campaigns. An "Army thing" and an "Air Force thing". Each service has it's own thing. And we don't operate like either one of them.

We use standardized officer ranks. It's a lot simpler. Most people coming into the program learn fairly quickly what the rank system is, and cadets learn it too. Why should we create an arbitrary system (which it would be)? CAP cadets going into the military can quite often gain advance rank upon initial entry due to their exposure to a similar environment as the military. Similar enough that there is little transition. Why change that too?

Besides, who here honestly believes that trashing our current ranks would even be approved? I doubt it would happen, for a number of reasons.

We use "standardized officer ranks," sure, but we use them in non-standardized ways.

Of course they will never change the system, because people are in love with looking like "real officers."  They cling to those oak leaves even though they are CAP's answer to merit badges instead of marks of authority and responsibility.

That's part of the answer to the "police use them, too" strawman argument.  First, police are rarely mistaken for the military.  Second, and most importantly, they use the insignia the same way the military does.  A Major in the MD State Police isn't the same as an military Major, but they both have authority over their respective Lt's and Captains and are the responsible person unless a higher ranking person shows up. 

In CAP, no one can hold me responsible because some Captain goes all stupid, which is good because I have no authority to tell him to do anything, anyway.

If I have authority in CAP it is due to position (Gp Commander, PIC, GTM) not due to grade.  That's jacked up.

[ColonelJack]

Well, Mr. Delaney (I won't call you "Major" Delaney or "Colonel" Delaney since you obviously don't see yourself as such), if this is so much of an issue for you, why do you maintain your affiliation with the organization? 

Your premise about why the system won't be changed is silly.  It won't be changed for one reason -- it works the way it was originally intended to work.  There's simply no logical reason to do anything to change the senior officer grade structure, because it does what it is supposed to do -- show personal professional development.

And before you go calling my arguments "straw men," check yourself -- you're resorting to personal attacks to bolster your less-than-tenable position.  Saying the system won't change because people like looking like "real officers" does a tremendous disservice to those who have worked hard -- within the system you seem to condemn -- to earn their grade as provided for in regulations. 

But you are correct on one item.  Any authority you have is directly the result of your position.  If you'll read CAP history, you'll find out that it was planned that way, back when the whole thing started.  Just like the grade system was.

Jack

[ddelaney103]

There is only one thing that CAP grade does: it represents your perceived worth to CAP.

Your "classic" CAP officer who works up through the grades is an example of this.  If you pursue your PD levels you're working for CAP on many levels:  you keep taking PD courses and increasing your knowledge base, you are working a specialty track (which usually involves both gaining knowledge and serving in a position) and putting in time.  Because CAP likes this they give you not just the Award, but also promotions.  However, that's not the only way to get grade in CAP...

The NB/NEC has decided a lot of times that they thought something was important.  They like having the various commander's slots filled, they like having members with special skill sets or knowledge.  To show how important it is, they hand out grade.

CAP likes pilots (Air is our middle name, after all) so we entice pilots with grade.  The more tickets in your book, the better the bling.  Doctors, lawyers, chaplains?  Break out the box of railroad tracks!  Military officers?  As long as you won't outgrade the NB/NEC, we got the hook up!  None of these people have to slog through the PD system: most of them have their own special classes to take.

When CAP started to run rough over financial stuff, one suggestion was to make CPA's Majors.  The coolest thing is, once they have the grade they get to keep it even if they never do work in their specialty, or useful work at all.  The last time I saw grade taken away was when the Board worked over Brig Gen Bergman, and he got that back.

Finally, there are the "suck up" grades.  CAP loves US Congressmen - we'll make them Lt Col's faster than you can say "FedEx that Senator a flight suit!"  CAP likes state representatives - we'll make them Majors.

Regular members can get in on this action, too.  SMWOG Joe Bagadonuts goes to his Lv 1 training and talks about all the time he spends at the state capital working with the State House Speaker.  After graduation, he gets buttonholed by the Wing King, who asks if he'd take the job of Wing Legislative Liaison Officer.  Joe says yes and (whenever he gets his stuff from Vanguard) he will be hitting the state house with shiny silver oak leaves and one whole ribbon.

So, in the end, grade means only one thing:  how much CAP thinks you're worth.

[Hawk200]

Of course they will never change the system, because people are in love with looking like "real officers." 

I've never been "in love" with looking like a real officer. People in my current Army Guard unit know I'm in CAP. But they don't know my rank. A couple people have asked. I've told them it wasn't important. They ask what I do. That I tell them about.

I'm beginning to wonder about this hangup that some people have about CAP ranks. We do have some  idiots that try to flaunt a rank earned far differently than the military, and shouldn't have any. But taking it away from everyone isn't the answer.

But I'm seeing a lot of people here that don't want officer grade, and I think it's for a far different reason. If you don't want people to expect officer conduct from you, give it up yourself. Don't try to tell everyone else that they don't deserve to be officers because you lack the desire to behave like one, or conduct yourself in the manner expected of those grades. It is unjust to demand others sacrifice for your shortcomings.

Those that are seriously offended by that are probably part of the problem.

[Hawk200]

When CAP started to run rough over financial stuff, one suggestion was to make CPA's Majors.  The coolest thing is, once they have the grade they get to keep it even if they never do work in their specialty, or useful work at all. 

I'm betting you don't know what 35-5 is, do you?

[Trung Si Ma]

[I'm betting you don't know what 35-5 is, do you?

I do.  Had to quote it extensively to Group, Wing, Region, and National when I gave up those pretty silver leaves to get a rank that was actually earned - MSgt.  Granted, I didn't do it until through with AWC, but it still was a huge headache getting some grade that actually means something.

[ddelaney103]

Well, Mr. Delaney (I won't call you "Major" Delaney or "Colonel" Delaney since you obviously don't see yourself as such), if this is so much of an issue for you, why do you maintain your affiliation with the organization?

You're welcome to call me by my user name.  I avoid using my given name because too many times have I seen tattletales run off the boards to complain that X said this or Y said that.  Without a little "academic non-attribution" this will quickly become a yes-men committee.

I am a CAP Major and I understand what that means in the larger scale of things.  I promoted for reasons similar to the IC I mentioned in a previous post.  In order to do things in CAP, you need a certain amount of "CAP street cred."  Major is enough to prove you're serious about CAP.

I have my Garber, and plan to get my Wilson, but I don't see many reason to become a Lt Col.  It'll cost me fifty bucks and I don't gain anything.

And if tomorrow they said "new system - here's your WO-4 shoulderboards?"  I'd swap without looking back.  Same thing with any other grade system they came up with.  It wouldn't decrease my CAP street cred any and I wouldn't feel like I was "dressing up" in big brother's clothes.

I'm here because CAP can be useful in many ways: our ability to put eyes in the sky for any disaster and our ability to give young Americans experience in leadership are just the two biggest.  However, our missions are accomplished in spite of our grade system, not because of it.

Your premise about why the system won't be changed is silly.  It won't be changed for one reason -- it works the way it was originally intended to work.  There's simply no logical reason to do anything to change the senior officer grade structure, because it does what it is supposed to do -- show personal professional development.

And before you go calling my arguments "straw men," check yourself -- you're resorting to personal attacks to bolster your less-than-tenable position.  Saying the system won't change because people like looking like "real officers" does a tremendous disservice to those who have worked hard -- within the system you seem to condemn -- to earn their grade as provided for in regulations. 

Hang on, I've gone ad hom?  You're the one up top deciding I shouldn't be called by what you consider my rightful title.  Considering how important you consider the grade to be, that would seem a personal insult.

I have not called you into question, just your argument that "the police do it and you don't complain about that."  As I mentioned in a previous post, the police don't look like the military or have a (sometimes) formal relationship with an armed service.  If their uniforms gave the impression of being military officers, I'd have a beef with them, too.

More importantly, they use grade insignia as an instant indicator of authority and responsibility, which is much more in the spirit of the insignia then our useage.

In CAP, grade is considered a right, not a privilege.  Every time the talk turns to tying higher grade to service above Group level, we hear the cries of "but what if I live too far from Wing?  I won't be able to promote!"  In the Reserve/Guard, if you want to promote you go to where the slot is or you don't promote.  If someone talked about their "right" to be a Chief or General, they'd get a trip to Mental Health.

In the military, a salute is a recognition that the person being saluted is the person in authority.  In CAP, it is the recognition that "CAP loves him/her better."

[RiverAux]

In order to do things in CAP, you need a certain amount of "CAP street cred." 

Hmm, then it seems as if the rank is more or less accomplishing its purpose by representing your accomplishments within CAP and to some extent your abilities. 
------

[ddelaney103]

When CAP started to run rough over financial stuff, one suggestion was to make CPA's Majors.  The coolest thing is, once they have the grade they get to keep it even if they never do work in their specialty, or useful work at all. 

I'm betting you don't know what 35-5 is, do you?

Been up one side and down the other and for all the time I've been in CAP I've never seen anyone hand back their probationary grade or get called to the carpet for not doing whatever job they signed up for.

Often, it's because they have nothing to do.  A sqdn Legal Officer may go for years without work.  A Doctor can't do med stuff - he's stuck giving the semi annual seasonal health brief.  And your average commander would be so overjoyed to have a Chaplain drop in every so often to do ML he's not going to pull grade for non-performance.

In the real military, the limited slots and the inherent authority that goes with grade will make promotion authorities very careful in handing out the bling.  Promoting to E-5 means deciding "yes, I am comfortable with this person taking charge of Airmen/Sailors/Soldiers/Marines in a crisis."

In CAP, promoting to Lt Col means what?  "Do I want to salute this person?"  Because for the promotion authority there are few repercussions.  There's no authority or responsibility and he or she still keeps working as DCS or Asst AEO.  Promotions make the member happy and the PD awards that drive most of them makes the Wing King happy, so what's not to love?

[ddelaney103]

In order to do things in CAP, you need a certain amount of "CAP street cred." 

Hmm, then it seems as if the rank is more or less accomplishing its purpose by representing your accomplishments within CAP and to some extent your abilities. 
------

No, it means I understand the system and I am using it to help me.  It doesn't mean i like it.

If we shifted to a "FO-1 to 5 for PD level and the officer bling was reserved for command and higher staff" system, we'd still retain the "street cred" system while making grade more like it is in the AF we're trying to be part of.  We'd also hand the commander an important carrot/stick in filling staff slots and enforcing performance.

The ability to say, "take this job and I'll make you a Lt Col" and "do your job or I'll find someone else to give your oak leaves" would be a big advantage over the current "stop, or I'll say 'stop' again."

[ColonelJack]

There is only one thing that CAP grade does: it represents your perceived worth to CAP.

Your "classic" CAP officer who works up through the grades is an example of this.  If you pursue your PD levels you're working for CAP on many levels:  you keep taking PD courses and increasing your knowledge base, you are working a specialty track (which usually involves both gaining knowledge and serving in a position) and putting in time.  Because CAP likes this they give you not just the Award, but also promotions.  However, that's not the only way to get grade in CAP...

No, it isn't.  But it is -- by far and away -- the primary way to get grade in CAP.  And, as I have said repeatedly, the use of grade was meant to do that. 

But in the RealMilitary™, is it not the same thing?  Does one not have to keep taking professional development ... work in a command slot or staff job ... put in time ... to advance in rank?

The NB/NEC has decided a lot of times that they thought something was important.  They like having the various commander's slots filled, they like having members with special skill sets or knowledge.  To show how important it is, they hand out grade.

CAP likes pilots (Air is our middle name, after all) so we entice pilots with grade.  The more tickets in your book, the better the bling.  Doctors, lawyers, chaplains?  Break out the box of railroad tracks!  Military officers?  As long as you won't outgrade the NB/NEC, we got the hook up!  None of these people have to slog through the PD system: most of them have their own special classes to take.

Just an example of the same thing in the actual service:  One of the people in my Scottish Country Dance class is a doctor (an anesthesiologist).  She was a doctor for the Navy for five years.  Because of her specialty, after joining the Navy and going through officer training, she was commissioned a lieutenant commander.  Ninety days after signing the papers to become a Naval officer, she jumped to O-4 -- and didn't have to slog through any system the Navy uses for officer promotions.  CAP is not alone in doing this.

If I recall correctly, Army regulations state (or at one time stated) that in certain circumstances, certain people with vitally needed skills can be granted grade as high as lieutenant colonel -- just for agreeing to work with the Army.  My point is, the RealMilitary™ does it too.

When CAP started to run rough over financial stuff, one suggestion was to make CPA's Majors.  The coolest thing is, once they have the grade they get to keep it even if they never do work in their specialty, or useful work at all.  The last time I saw grade taken away was when the Board worked over Brig Gen Bergman, and he got that back.

All you cite here happened after I retired, so I am "in the dark" about it.  I do recall something about Gen. Bergman, but it's kind of fuzzy to me.  (Anybody want to bring this old man up to speed?)

Finally, there are the "suck up" grades.  CAP loves US Congressmen - we'll make them Lt Col's faster than you can say "FedEx that Senator a flight suit!"  CAP likes state representatives - we'll make them Majors.

I'm not going to defend that one at all, 'cause I think it's silly too.  I understand the CGAux has a similar thing, but they bestow the grade of "honorary district commodore" on such folks.  The major differences are:  1) you have to do a lot more for the CGAux than these clowns do for CAP to get it ... 2) it's an honorary rank rather than a "real" one ... 3) they get a star.

Regular members can get in on this action, too.  SMWOG Joe Bagadonuts goes to his Lv 1 training and talks about all the time he spends at the state capital working with the State House Speaker.  After graduation, he gets buttonholed by the Wing King, who asks if he'd take the job of Wing Legislative Liaison Officer.  Joe says yes and (whenever he gets his stuff from Vanguard) he will be hitting the state house with shiny silver oak leaves and one whole ribbon.

I see that particular method of advancement as an abuse of the system, and not as the routine.  It's the same as some guy being a captain one day, made a group commander and bumped to major, then made wing (and later region) commander and bumped to colonel -- and never finishing a term in either slot.  That, too, is an abuse of the system.

But just because some abuse the system ... it doesn't mean the system should be done away with.

So, in the end, grade means only one thing:  how much CAP thinks you're worth.

Not necessarily.  It can -- and for most members does -- mean what you've done, what you've learned, what you've put into the program.

Remember, too, that CAP payday comes in only two ways -- bling and rank.  We don't get $$$ for being members.  You're advocating doing away with one of the two ways we get paid for our work.

I'm sure you understand why that touches a nerve with many people.

Jack

[ColonelJack]

[I'm betting you don't know what 35-5 is, do you?

I do.  Had to quote it extensively to Group, Wing, Region, and National when I gave up those pretty silver leaves to get a rank that was actually earned - MSgt.  Granted, I didn't do it until through with AWC, but it still was a huge headache getting some grade that actually means something.

What you got was a grade that meant something important to you -- which, I submit, is the same reason everyone else earns their grade.  It's important to them, for whatever reason.

And there will be as many reasons as there are members.

(You finished AWC?  I'm impressed!)

Jack

[ColonelJack]

But I'm seeing a lot of people here that don't want officer grade, and I think it's for a far different reason. If you don't want people to expect officer conduct from you, give it up yourself. Don't try to tell everyone else that they don't deserve to be officers because you lack the desire to behave like one, or conduct yourself in the manner expected of those grades. It is unjust to demand others sacrifice for your shortcomings.

Those that are seriously offended by that are probably part of the problem.

Well said, sir.

Jack