BBDU Thread

[RogueLeader]

I like the way that they look, just the same that I like how the BDU's look.

[JayT]

I like the way that they look, just the same that I like how the BDU's look.

Well, something just occured to me.

If we're getting complaints in Florida about our leather nameplate and plastic rank insignia...

How are military guys gonna react when we start showing up in OD?

(I stopped by the surplus store before, and OD green fatigues were about a third more expensive then blue BDUs.)

[Stonewall]

Why do so many of you want ODs back?

I'm not advocating that we go back to ODs, it's just my personal opinion that they look awesome, especially with CAP insignia on them.  I just love them to death.  They're as durable as any other fatigue type uniform, are military in nature, are as easy to get as BBDUs and they're just cool.  No one will change my opinion on that, it's just my thing.  Because I was in CAP when we wore them, I was exposed to them and fell in love with them.  All through the years in BDUs, I still liked OD jungles more than anything else.

Only difference is, I'd go with the straight pockets over the slants...

[JayT]

Now that is a good looking suit. Do you have a scan of that EMT patch?

[Stonewall]

Do you have a scan of that EMT patch?

Looks like they changed the design, but here's the order form.

http://www.nremt.org/downloads/emt_purchase_form.pdf

[ColonelJack]

And if my comment offended you, I sincerely apologize, for that was not my intent.

It doesn't offend me in the least.  Like I said, I think its a typical copout response.  Many senior members in CAP can't join the military, for whatever reason, yet they still see a valid point in outfitting all of CAP in the AF's uniform.  It's not about me, it's about CAP.  If it were about me, or even up to me, we'd be wearing OD jungle fatigues.  I've said that all along.

Point conceded.  But ... since outfitting all of CAP in the AF uniform will not happen unless the Air Force does away with the weight restrictions ... how do we achieve uniformity?

I wore the OD fatigues on AD myself.  (We didn't use the slant pockets then.)  I always liked that pickle suit. 

Jack

[SARMedTech]

Do you have a scan of that EMT patch?

Looks like they changed the design, but here's the order form.

http://www.nremt.org/downloads/emt_purchase_form.pdf

Yes they have changed the patch just a little in the subdued, standard and reflective. While some uniform stores get them and sell them, the NR wont sell them to anyone who isnt on the registry.

[Hawk200]

But ... since outfitting all of CAP in the AF uniform will not happen unless the Air Force does away with the weight restrictions ... how do we achieve uniformity?

We don't. There are a couple of camps on which uniform to wear, but to eliminate one or the other results in losses.

The Air Force uniforms have only changed when the Air Force did. The grey/whites evolved, allowing ribbons and additional badges. Then a new uniform showed up out of the blue. A uniform that has spawned a number of questions about its sudden origin.

Overall, there are far more corporate variations than there are military ones in our organization. The military ones are readily available, and you don't get stuck with one source for them. It's kind of hard to talk uniformity when the most variations are corporate in nature.

There are people that think we should do away with blues. That will be a sad day for me, for a few reasons, but I won't stick around after that.

[RogueLeader]

I think that a "more" uniformity is better in our case than "total" uniformity. We go all AF or Corporate, we lose people.  Not what we want- or should at the very least.  I believe what Major Carrales proposed in one of his threads would work well.

[ZigZag911]

Kach, thanks for the info, it's good to know AF folks know about us...now, if we EVER come to some common ground on uniforms among ourselves, then we need to figure out how to best follow USAF insignia practices....and how to make them aware of our little 'eccentricities'.

Dragoon said it best, there are really only two options -- and while I favor uniformity, I don't favor it at the expense of unity!

There are very strong feelings on all sides of this issue....and generally compelling arguments supporting each of these opinions.

Perhaps we need to "agree to disagree"!

And perhaps we need to consider limiting the number of combinations under both corporate and military uniform styles.

[Hawk200]

Dragoon said it best, there are really only two options -- and while I favor uniformity, I don't favor it at the expense of unity!

Agreed. I'm one of two people in my unit that wears the AF variants. There certainly hasn't been any issues because of it.

There are very strong feelings on all sides of this issue....and generally compelling arguments supporting each of these opinions.

The unfortunate thing is that there is no middle ground to meet on with those. One side winning means a lot of the losing side leaves.

And perhaps we need to consider limiting the number of combinations under both corporate and military uniform styles.

When it comes to military uniform styles, there aren't many. The corporate side is where the number of combinations seems to be approaching exponential. (OK, not really exponential, but there is a lot of variation there.)

[Dragoon]

I highly, HIGHLY disagree that we are bound to lose oodles of useful folks if we proscribe corporate uniforms for all.  I think that's a paper tiger argument.

Not everyone quits just because they don't like something.  Many threaten to quit, but in the end decide there's more to be gained by sticking around.

Some do quit, but in many cases they are folks who weren't invested in the organization - just in the uniform.  Not a big loss.

I remember the Maroon Epaulets.  We lost some folks. But we kept all the useful, contributing people.  They weren't going to let a little thing like weird colored epaulets destroy their committment to our missions.

Most of us have been through rounds and rounds of uniform changes we disagreed with, and we're still here. 

If you're willing to quit over a uniform, then it's clear that was your main reason for being here in the first place.  And frankly, that's not a very good reason. 

[JohnKachenmeister]

At the risk of beating a dead horse, and coming back to the "Vision" thing, I wonder if we would be having this much of a discussion about corporates vs. BBDU's etc. if the National Commander had issued a memorandum like this:

National HQ, CAP
Puzzle Palace South
Maxwell AFB, AL.

Dear Fellow CAP Members:

After a comprehensive review of our uniform requirements, and a careful analysis of the existing CAPM 39-1, it is apparent that the number and types of uniforms is chaotic, and deleterious to the morale, cohesiveness, and image of the U.S. Civil Air Patrol.

Therefore, in close coordination with the National Board and the Air Force, I would like to share with you the Uniform Initiatives for CAP in the 21st Century.  

Service Dress Uniform:  Due to the age and physical condition of the CAP force, and objections raised by the Air Force of overweight persons and persons not meeting the grooming standards of the Air Force being permitted to wear an Air Force officer uniform, we have established a modified Air Force Auxiliary officer uniform for wear by all members of the CAP.  The uniform is Air Force blue, features a return to our traditional metal rank on the epaulet, and is in keeping with the tradition of CAP members wearing a modified Air Force uniform, which was earned in combat in the desperate early months of World War II.  The uniform also features some aspects of the naval unifom, in recognition that those CAP members who patrolled our coasts against enemy submarines were performing a maritime combat mission.  This uniform will be called the "Auxiliary Service Dress Uniform."

Battle Dress Uniforms and flight suits:  Also in keeping with our "One CAP" theme, the use of the woodland BDU uniform and the sage green flight suit will be phased out in favor of the "Auxiliary Blue" uniforms.  These uniforms are the same cut and material of the Air Force flight suits and BDU's, but will be distinctive and reflect the pride of volunteer service.

The Auxiliary Service Dress uniform will be worn by all senior-member officers by (date).  Cadets under age 18 will continue to wear the Air Force uniform.  Cadets over 18 will also transition to the Auxiliary Service Dress if they do not meet the screening weight shown in the table in CAPM 39-1.  Guidance for grooming standards, which will allow for neatly-trimmed beards, will follow.  Also, since I'm the National Commander now, we can forget about wearing that stupid silver sleeve braid.  Its now blue, and take that stupid braid off your service cap, too.  It makes you look like some kind of third-world dictator.

The Auxiliary Blue flight suits and battledress will be worn by all officers and cadets by (date).  Officers will continue to wear the metal rank on the cap, and an embroidered flight suit namebadge is being designed and will be published under separate cover.  Sew-on officer rank is authorized on the Auxiliary Blue flight suit, using Auxiliary Blue background material.  The sew-on nametapes and insignia on the Auxiliary Blue battledress will also be in Auxiliary Blue.  The phase-out for ultramarine blue nametapes is (date).

The Golf Shirt uniform is continued for wear at informal occasions and as flight clothing while operating gliders.  The Golf Shirt may be worn by cadets when flying gliders.

Additionally, wear of military decorations and badges on CAP uniforms is authorized, unless expressly forbidden by the service issuing the badge or award.

With these uniform initiatives, we will continue serving the US Air Force as a professional partner, with a far more professional appearance.

Semper Vi.

John R. Kachenmeister
Major General, CAP
National Commander  

[Dragoon]

Very well done.  Not just a directive, but clear cut reasons why.  If the phase out dates were reasonable (I'm thinking 4 to 5 years out), this would probably succeed.

[RiverAux]

You know, I don't recall that this has even been brought up, but CAP managed to fulfill all of its ES and other missions where a BDU is required for almost its entire history without having a matching corporate uniform (BBDU) for the fat & fuzzies. 

While I'm sure there were some overweight people that cheated and still wore (and currently wear) the BDU the fact is that we probably could cut out the BBDU entirely and still do everything we've always done.  Is it worth it to the organization to have a uniform for overweight people to wear on ground team missions that they are probably not fit enough to participate in anyway? 

Yes, the BBDU allows the fuzzies to participate in this one CAP mission that they couldn't do wearing an AF uniform, but is it worth it in terms of organizational uniformity to get those few fit but fuzzies out on the ground teams?  We got by without them for over 50 years. 

Why should CAP abandon its historic association with the AF and switch entirely to BBDUs to accomodate a small percentage of its members who shouldn't be on ground teams due to weight or for the few people who want to have facial hair?

Yes, yes, yes, there are some people who may be fit but not meet the weight standards to wear the BDUs, but these are far outnumbered by the people who are just fat and unfit. 

[ColonelJack]

Kach, you just got my vote for National Commander.

(Sorry, Gen. Courter ... but then, I didn't really have a vote anyway.)



Jack

[ColonelJack]

You know, I don't recall that this has even been brought up, but CAP managed to fulfill all of its ES and other missions where a BDU is required for almost its entire history without having a matching corporate uniform (BBDU) for the fat & fuzzies. 

What it had was the fatigue uniform (and later BDU) that was authorized for senior members of all fitness and fuzziness to wear, but without grade insignia.  We had the fat and fuzzies, my friend ... we just didn't let them display their rank.  Which is not exactly a good thing, to many.

While I'm sure there were some overweight people that cheated and still wore (and currently wear) the BDU the fact is that we probably could cut out the BBDU entirely and still do everything we've always done.  Is it worth it to the organization to have a uniform for overweight people to wear on ground team missions that they are probably not fit enough to participate in anyway? 

If ES was the only thing CAP members were expected to do, you might have a valid point here.  But ES is only 1/3 of the CAP mission.  I interpret what you're saying to mean that uniform guidelines should be written to exclude 2/3 of CAP's mission so the 1/3 that goes out on GT missions can look good.  Or am I misunderstanding you?

Yes, the BBDU allows the fuzzies to participate in this one CAP mission that they couldn't do wearing an AF uniform, but is it worth it in terms of organizational uniformity to get those few fit but fuzzies out on the ground teams?  We got by without them for over 50 years. 

No, we didn't.  We didn't let them show their grade.  They still went on the missions.  I know -- I'm not exactly fit & trim, and have been on several GT and air ops missions.  I went.  Others did too.

Why should CAP abandon its historic association with the AF and switch entirely to BBDUs to accomodate a small percentage of its members who shouldn't be on ground teams due to weight or for the few people who want to have facial hair?

No one is suggesting abandoning our association with the Air Force.  (At least, I hope they're not.)  And I wouldn't advocate a switch to all-BBDUs -- though Kach's imaginary National CC letter does make a great deal of sense.  But it would be a far greater disaster for CAP as a whole to alienate that percentage of its members you cite -- a percentage I feel is larger than you think it is. 

Yes, yes, yes, there are some people who may be fit but not meet the weight standards to wear the BDUs, but these are far outnumbered by the people who are just fat and unfit. 

And these "fat" people don't contribute?  Is that what you are saying?

Jack

[RiverAux]

I'm not saying the overweight people don't contribute, but they shouldn't be out on ground teams which is the primary purpose of the BDU uniform.  Yes, it is commonly worn at many squadron meetings and sure you might wear for other duties where fitness may not be as big an issue, but they are relatively minor.  Wearing it without grade is a cop out --- you're just as overweight without the grade as you are with it.   

[ColonelJack]

I'm not saying the overweight people don't contribute, but they shouldn't be out on ground teams which is the primary purpose of the BDU uniform.  Yes, it is commonly worn at many squadron meetings and sure you might wear for other duties where fitness may not be as big an issue, but they are relatively minor.  Wearing it without grade is a cop out --- you're just as overweight without the grade as you are with it.   

So are you advocating no utility uniforms at all for the fat/fuzzy crowd, or are you advocating getting rid of the fat/fuzzy crowd?

I certainly don't want to go back to wearing uniforms without grade.  Not ever.

Jack

[RiverAux]

No utility uniforms for the fat and fuzzies.  Personally, I wouldn't have a problem if they relaxed the fuzzy standards and let them wear AF uniforms of all types, but thats not my call.  They just shouldn't have a separate uniform of their own.