BBDU Thread

[Sgt. Savage]

Please, allow me to rant for a minute....

What in gods name is "Looking Military"? Cummon, does it mean we have to wear camouflage uniforms? Does that mean "Blues" don't look military? One could easily argue that we are neither uniform or military because of the 12 different "uniforms" we wear at any given time. I suppose it's tough to tell that someone is in the Navy because they don't wear the right "uniform", right. I guess you have to run up to every person on the street to find out which one is a police officer because their uniform isn't distinctive enough.

It's all silly!! A uniform is a uniform. The BBDU is a uniform. In fact, it's as military a uniform as any other uniform. It serves both purposes; it's functional and the same as every other BBDU.

I don't wear a BBDU because I have many BDU uniforms that I didn't have to buy. If the BBDU was the standard, I would wear it. I think the bigger issue is that we BE UNIFORM.

I relinquish my soap box... Open Fire.

[capchiro]

People keep mentioning the Air Force weight and grooming standards.  You have to remember that most of the people adhering to that are people between the ages of 20 and 45 and that physical training and conditioning is part of daily life for them  CAP, being a volunteer organization, and designed to tap the experience and wisdom of it's volunteers, probably has a median age of 40-60, not counting the cadets.  For this reason, we will never be able to completely meet the weight and grooming standards of the Air Force.  Do I give my 4 hours of volunteer time to the CAP program or do I go out and exercise and run?  Other than health reasons, there is no good reason our personnel need to be in the condition/weight/grooming standards of the Air Force.  We do not deploy for months on end.  Our nation is not paying us to be in top physical condition nor counting on us to be in top physical condition.  I think we should all try hard and maybe harder than we have to meet theAir Force standards, but lets get real, we won't, so there..

[SARMedTech]

Colonel-

while i did speak in favor of perhaps utilizing PT to assist members with weight issues, I would never make it mandatory and I think it many ways it was a response to the stated "they can have my BDUs when they can pry them from my cold dead hands" mindset. The ideas that say you can have rank but not wear rank, or that we eliminate rank from overweight members is ludicrous. How many screamers would there be if we took the lean and mean crowd and said, ok, now the standard is you have to meet the same physical standards, including PT abilities as the cadets? Most couldnt do it. This is just silly. The USCG has been around longer than the Air Force and allows members who are past a certain weight to wear the same uniforms as those who are not. I have no problem with the grooming standards and say we should take a page from their book there as well. Whats next? Are we going to require that all members go on (at the their own expense, of course) the Nutrisystem diet. Come on folks. If there were half as many posts here about professionalism as there are about what the heck we wear, we would be advancing in that regard by leaps and bounds. (dons nomex)

[RogueLeader]

When we wear the AF style uniforms, we bring credit or discredit on the AF, depending on how we look.  Is this fair, is this right? No, but I doubt that anybody can convince the public that we are good when we look bad.  It's the whole "first impressions' thing again.  The thing of it is, the AF basically said: "You want to dress like us? Fine, but you also have to look like us too.  since you aren't being paid to be in top physical condition, we'll allow an extra 10% on our weight scale.  While we don't have to let you wear our clothes, as you are our Auxiliary, we want to be nice and let you still wear them.  We just want you to look good for you and us."

[ZigZag911]

Essentially, the Coast Guard needs its Auxiliary to meet its serious personnel shortage (too much mission, too few people), so they are flexible about the uniform in the interest of getting the job done.

Truth be told, USAF does not need CAP whatsoever to carry out its main assigned missions....that's the simple fact.

So, they can afford to  hold a stricter standard regarding wear of their uniform.

Now, I started out as a cadet, wearing the USAF uniform was a big deal to me too....but I think we need to face the reality that the majority of our adult officers are middle aged or older, have never served in the military, and consequently can't begin to meet military PT & height-weight standards.

The issue then becomes do we, as CAP, want a senior member force mainly dressed like 'civilian instructors'?

I'm getting to the point that the argument has dragged on so long, all I really would like to see is consensus.

One final point -- most of the Air Force does not even know we exist -- and I suspect those that do would much prefer that we dressed like somebody, anybody, else -- meter maids, forest rangers, the Orkin Man....take your choice!

[RogueLeader]

I'm getting to the point that the argument has dragged on so long, all I really would like to see is consensus.

Unfortunately, due to the wide variety of people in CAP, consensus is nearly impossible.  Should we try to change that?  Yes, but i don't know how myself.

[JohnKachenmeister]

ZigZag:

I work pretty close with USAF folks here in FL, and I can pretty well say that your assumptions about the USAF view of CAP are not exactly on the mark.

MOST Air Force folks know we exist.  Most know that we are older, and second-line troops at best.  Most know that we perform the Air Force's SAR missions, and almost all know we have a cadet program.

What they DON'T know about us is that we have our own uniform regs.  Most AF folks sort of assumed that USAF uniform regs pertain to the CAP, with certain special insignia.  When I wore my flight suit at the Space and Missile Museum, an AF reserve major doing his annual training there went off about "The old CAP major who wears the outdated insignia."  He was referring to my plastic-encased metal rank and my leather name badge. 

Surprise... it isn't outdated for us!  Should be, but isn't.

Maybe we should let the AF write our uniform regs by adding a chapter to their own AFI, titled "Special Insignia for Civil Air Patrol."  We've just plain screwed the pooch on this. 

[Dragoon]

I vote for uniformity as a higher priority than Air Force-iness.

If we could all wear USAF suits, that would be just fine.  But while shaving could be mandated with only a miniscule effect on membership, demanding everyone get thin just ain't gonna happen.  Not worth wasting oxygen discussing.

So....as long as USAF puts weight standards on their uniforms, we can never wear them and be "uniform."  Because a lot of our members will always be wearing something else.

A corporate uniform is the only way to go if the primary the goal is uniformity.

Having the goal of "looking like the Air Force" is unachievable.  You PERSONALLY, may look like the Air Force, but WE as an organization have two choices.

1.  Look like a whole bunch of different things at once (some in USAF, some in corporate, some in civvies).

2.  Look like one organization, but at the expense of some of us looking like USAF.

I really don't think there's a viable third option.

[ColonelJack]

I vote for uniformity as a higher priority than Air Force-iness.

I agree 110%.

If we could all wear USAF suits, that would be just fine.  But while shaving could be mandated with only a miniscule effect on membership, demanding everyone get thin just ain't gonna happen.  Not worth wasting oxygen discussing.

Or the far, far worse idea -- kicking out all those who aren't slender enough to be "lookin' good" in AF blues.  As I've said before:  To those who have this burning desire to look like AF all the time, go join the Air Force!

A corporate uniform is the only way to go if the primary the goal is uniformity.

I like how you put that -- "a" corporate uniform, not "the" corporate uniform.  (I know, I know ... semantics.)  And if we can get past the distaste people feel for corporate blues based on who created them and how they were instituted, we're 99% of the way toward compromise in what you've correctly identified as a basically unsolvable issue. 

Having the goal of "looking like the Air Force" is unachievable.  You PERSONALLY, may look like the Air Force, but WE as an organization have two choices.

1.  Look like a whole bunch of different things at once (some in USAF, some in corporate, some in civvies).

2.  Look like one organization, but at the expense of some of us looking like USAF.

I really don't think there's a viable third option.

There isn't.  And Option 2 is, for a good-sized chunk of the membership (no pun intended), the way to go.  If "uniformity" is the goal, corporate may end up being the ideal, because AF uniforms just aren't going to be an option for a fair share of the membership.

Good post, Dragoon!

Jack

[Stonewall]

As I've said before:  To those who have this burning desire to look like AF all the time, go join the Air Force!

I must say, I think that's a pathetic response to people who are of the opinion that wearing the Air Force is the right idea.  It's not like it's anything more than an opinion, yet the only response you can come up with is go join the Air Force.  I happen to be one of those who thinks wearing the Air Force style uniform is the right way to go.  I also happen to be one of those who carries an Air Force CAC in my wallet.  There are those who are in the Air Force and meet the weight/grooming that are pro-BBDU.  That's fine too.  It's simply a discussion that will carry no weight in any uniform committee's decision to change what we already have.  But simply telling someone to go off and join the Air Force, well, I just think it's a copout response.

[RogueLeader]

Just because I don't like the corporate uniforms, or chose not to wear them, that does not mean that I want to get rid them.  The corporate uniforms look very professional.  I just happen to be of a mind that the AF look just as professional.  I believe that since we are under the AF, I work for the AF in an unpaid- part time job; therefore I have the privilege to wear their uniform because I fit their guidelines.  Those rules just happen to make their uniforms look good.

[ColonelJack]

As I've said before:  To those who have this burning desire to look like AF all the time, go join the Air Force!

I must say, I think that's a pathetic response to people who are of the opinion that wearing the Air Force is the right idea.  It's not like it's anything more than an opinion, yet the only response you can come up with is go join the Air Force.

On reflection, I see your point ... but the point I'm trying to make is not necessarily with you per se, but with those who think we should only be wearing AF uniforms.  You're right in that it's the "right way to go."  But it's not an available way to go for a sizeable segment of our membership.  And if the goal is uniformity, something has to go so that the goal can be achieved.  We either decide to go with corporates so we all look uniform, or we jettison those who don't meet AF guidelines.  And I think you'll agree that the Air Force ain't gonna relax their uniform guidelines for CAP any time soon.

I withdraw my "go join the Air Force" comment inasmuch as it may offend people who meet guidelines but are okay with corporate uniforms for those who don't.  (To those who think our clothing should be AF-only, my comment stands.)

I guess my little tirade is directed toward those who think AF uniforms are the only ones CAP should wear -- these, to me, are the people who might be better off being part of Big Brother Blue.  It is indeed my opinion, and those are like noses -- everybody has one.

It's simply a discussion that will carry no weight in any uniform committee's decision to change what we already have.

Here, Colonel, we agree.  And if my comment offended you, I sincerely apologize, for that was not my intent.

Jack

[ColonelJack]

Just because I don't like the corporate uniforms, or chose not to wear them, that does not mean that I want to get rid them.  The corporate uniforms look very professional.  I just happen to be of a mind that the AF look just as professional.  I believe that since we are under the AF, I work for the AF in an unpaid- part time job; therefore I have the privilege to wear their uniform because I fit their guidelines.  Those rules just happen to make their uniforms look good.

No argument here ... but if the overall goal is uniformity, what do we do with those who can't wear AF?  Those are the people the rules exclude from AF uniforms.  I can't wear AF because I'm too heavy.  (And retired, but a CAPF 12 and a check changes that.)

I too think the corporates look professional, and really don't understand the loud, long objections to them.

Jack

[JayT]

Lieutenant, thats a little ridiculous to say that you 'work for the Air Force' in any way, shape, or form. Wearing a CAP hat, none of us 'work for the Air Force,' except maybe in a few hours out of a month when we're on an Air Force assigned mission. And even that is debatable.

On the topic of my post about the Air Training Corps and CIs, maybe we do need to 'segerate' our members. Why does every Senior Member coming through the door need to have an Officer grade? In the ATC, every adult member, unless they have prior service, starts off as a Civilian Intructor, as is my understanding. You then have to apply to become an Royal Auxiliary Air Force (Volunteer Reserve) NCO, and you hold the grade of Adult Sergeant. After time in service, and the needs of the organization, you get promoted to Adult Flight Sergeant, then Adult Warrant Officer. You can also apply for a comission, and have to take a course at the RAF Academy, and then and only then do you achieve officer ranks.

Now of course, the ATC's don't have Cadet Officers, so that clears up a few things in terms of whos definately in charge.

So why does every new SM need to be an officer?

(Don't you all just love double thread drift?)

Back to the topic of uniforms. CAP has a lot of issues when them for various reasons. I like having our own manual, because it makes things less confusing then have an supplement to the Air Force manual. I can only imagine cadets showing up to CAP activities with SF berets and sliver stripes down there pants because 'The uniform manual said so.'

We already see members wearing boonie hats, and cloth flight nameplates, and other things that seperate us from the Air Force.

Why don't we, as Civil Air Patrol, accept that we need to develope our own entirely seperate traditions in terms of uniforms from the Air Force? If we have to look different from our active duty cousins, then so be it! Wearing blue BDUs hasn't made my job as a Cadet Officer any harder or easier, it just helps me sleep a little better at night because people now read my last name and chuckle, rather then thank me for military service that I haven't done.

[RogueLeader]

My objections:
Corporate Service: sliver on the coat- its ugly
BBBU's: don't like the color
        If we had OD's, Id wear both interchangeably
White Aviator/Blue trousers: looks to similar to AF, and in outdoors when sunny, the          whites look like blue- or blue to white.
No objection to the others.

[RogueLeader]

  I believe that since we are under the AF, I work for the AF in an unpaid- part time job;

meant as tongue-in-cheek, sorry

But still, as we are under its wing, we are a part of the Family.  Are we not?

[Stonewall]

And if my comment offended you, I sincerely apologize, for that was not my intent.

It doesn't offend me in the least.  Like I said, I think its a typical copout response.  Many senior members in CAP can't join the military, for whatever reason, yet they still see a valid point in outfitting all of CAP in the AF's uniform.  It's not about me, it's about CAP.  If it were about me, or even up to me, we'd be wearing OD jungle fatigues.  I've said that all along.

[Dragoon]

I believe there's value is dressing in USAF uniforms.   But I believe there is more value in us, as one team, being in one uniform.  Whatever that uniform might be.   Since all of CAP can't wear USAF uniforms....there aren't a lot of other options.

The old practice of "fat boys don't wear rank" juse made more mockery of our grade structure - imagine a Wing Commander who couldn't wear his eagles.  Silly.  You're either a colonel or you're not.  If you are, you get the birds.

Now shaving I've got now problem with.  If USAF would eliminate weight standards but enforce grooming standards, I'd vote for USAF suits in a heartbeat (and I'm pretty thin, by the way).  But I don't think that's likely to happen in our lifetime.

[JayT]

  I believe that since we are under the AF, I work for the AF in an unpaid- part time job;

meant as tongue-in-cheek, sorry

But still, as we are under its wing, we are a part of the Family.  Are we not?

Sorry If you feel I snapped at you, I didn't intend to sound harsh.

If we're part of the Air Force family in anything but name and cuts of cloth, I haven't felt it.

Why do so many of you want ODs back?

[Dragoon]

I'd wager it's because we have lots of ex cadets who wore OD back in the day, and older ex military who did the same.  It's what they're most comfortable with.