BBDU Thread

[ZigZag911]

Sgt Savage said it best....let's get everyone in the same outfit!

[shorning]

Personally, I think some are spending way too much time fretting over what they wear.  Hopefully, that same energy is put into everything else they do in CAP.  We argue back and forth all the time whether we should be/look "military" all the time.  IMO, CAP doesn't need to look military, but we do need to look professional.  I don't need a specific uniform to do that.  I really think that there is a "wannabe" factor and some ego issues (i.e. "heck no I won't wear that!  I wanna look like the Air Force!").  In the end, it's just a set of clothes. 



Now...isn't there an important topic we could discuss?  I think this one is

[DKruse]

Personally, I think some are spending way too much time fretting over what they wear.  Hopefully, that same energy is put into everything else they do in CAP.  We argue back and forth all the time whether we should be/look "military" all the time.  IMO, CAP doesn't need to look military, but we do need to look professional.  I don't need a specific uniform to do that.  I really think that there is a "wannabe" factor and some ego issues (i.e. "heck no I won't wear that!  I wanna look like the Air Force!").  In the end, it's just a set of clothes. 



Now...isn't there an important topic we could discuss?  I think this one is

Well said, sir.   

[arajca]

I tend to read these discussions (and contribute on occasion) about uniforms as a break from the more serious issues, like the last month spent preping for an SUI and CI (for sqdn van). The fact that we can spend the amount of time we do here is a testimony to our certifiability passion regarding CAP. Most of the uniform issues boil down to this:

Having a professional appearence.

The fun comes in when we have highly spirited discussions about how to get there.

[SARPilotNY]

My point is...
Wear one uniform that is military and get rid of the rest including all of the fat and fuzzy folks or go to a non military that allows all those that can't or won't meet the standards to remain.  The fashion police seem so worried about our members getting shot because we look like swat, I doubt any sane person would confuse a 100 pound overweight person as a police officer unless they are at a bank standoff.  Than there are those that think we should carry guns.     I hear people saying we will lose all of those F & F seniors.  Do we worry about not recruiting cadets since we don't have an alternate uniform for them?  NO!.  Do we allow F & F cadets?  No!  Are they CAP's future?  Yes!  Its called discipline and desire!  Many of our folks don't have it, and may of our leaders don't desire it.  Its all about quantity, not quality.  Keep those membership dollars coming, recruiter ribbons coming.  Wonder why we lose so many after only a year or two?  Our organization let them down and we failed them.   As a nation, our population grows but CAP doesn't.  Why is that?  We had more members two or three decades ago when long hair was in and the military was out.  We had one uniform and standards.  Slowly we allowed the smurf suit, than...well we all know.  We were not concerned about losing folks back than and we had a stronger base.   CAP membership is a privilege, not a right.  We need leadership that will give us direction and they have.  Like it or not, we can wear all these combos.  I have seen overweight wing commanders, group and squadron commanders with beards.  How about a 100 pound overweight National Commander with a beard?  That folks is a glass ceiling!

[RogueLeader]

In the end, it's just a set of clothes. 

So, would you wear sack-cloth clothes?  After all, they're just a set of clothes.

[shorning]

In the end, it's just a set of clothes. 

So, would you wear sack-cloth clothes?  After all, they're just a set of clothes.

If that was our uniform?  Yes.  And I'd still look and act professionally as possible.  It's not the clothes that make the man/woman.

[Sgt. Savage]

"mil·i·tar·y (mĭl'ĭ-tĕr'ē)

adj.

Of, relating to, or characteristic of members of the armed forces: a military bearing; military attire.
Performed or supported by the armed forces: military service.
Of or relating to war: military operations.
Of or relating to land forces.

n., pl. military also -ies.

Armed forces: a country ruled by the military.
Members, especially officers, of an armed force.


u·ni·form (yū'nə-fôrm')

adj.

Always the same, as in character or degree; unvarying.
Conforming to one principle, standard, or rule; consistent.
Being the same as or consonant with another or others.
Unvaried in texture, color, or design.

n.

A distinctive outfit intended to identify those who wear it as members of a specific group.
One set of such an outfit.

I didn't see there where we all have to look like the Air Force, only like eachother.

[Stonewall]

To me, it just makes sense.  Air Force Auxiliary = Look like Air Force

Same goes for USCG Auxiliary, American Cadet Alliance (and each branch they represent), AFJROTC, Army JROTC, NJROTC, and so on. 

Lots of adults in CAP are beyond the whole looking like the military thing, or even acting ilke the military thing.  But CAP isn't all about the adults.  It's about the cadets, and a few other things like Emergency Services and training some adults in professional development and affording them a means to fly their little hearts out.  Or, like lots of us on this website, do some ground search and rescue and work with cadets.  But in the end, when it comes down to where the rubber meets the road, it's about the cadets.  And cadets want and need a military style program that gets their heritage and uniform from something bigger and better.  Whether it be the Army, Marine Corps or the Air Force.  In our case, it's the Air Force.

Speaking as a former cadet, the military influence from our parent branch made a huge difference in how I grew up as a cadet.  Compare it to the Boy Scouts.  What's after the Boy Scouts?  Life?  Getting a job?  But CAP had something bigger and better than itself, the Air Force, or the military in general.  And as a cadet, I loved everything about wearing the Air Force uniform. 

I lived no where near an Air Force base as a cadet.  But I did live 6 miles from a Navy base where I could buy BDUs.  Heck, when I first joined, and through my first 3 years, I could buy fatigues there.  Fatigues, just like the Air Force wore.  And for now, buying BDUs is still a non-issue for most.  Blue BDUS, however, aren't as prominent.  You have to order them, unless you're one of the lucky ones that has some sort of SWAT/COP shop that sells them in your area.

My opinion, based on 20 years of experience in CAP, I say stick with what the Air Force wears, for everyone.  Although I truly love the OD Jungles, and I'd be willing to order them for everyone, it just isn't as practical as wearing what the Air Force wears.  Am I a wanna-be soldier, sailor, airman, marine?  Nope!  Am I in CAP to wear Air Force uniforms?  Abso-friggin-lutely not.  To me, I'm in and have been in CAP for the cadets, and as a cadet programs guy I think it's critical to keep ourselves in the Air Force's uniform.  Your Opinion May Vary (YOMV).

Removed empty quote - MIKE

[SARPilotNY]

So what do you do with the fat and fuzzy?

[Stonewall]

So what do you do with the fat and fuzzy?

Although it's not the best answer, I'd say do what we used to do.  Fat and Fuzzy wear the same uniform, just without rank.  Two sewn on CAP cutouts. 

[ColonelJack]

So what do you do with the fat and fuzzy?

Well, according to you, we kick them out.

Or we adopt a uniform that everybody can wear and not wear a military-style uniform.

My point is...
Wear one uniform that is military and get rid of the rest including all of the fat and fuzzy folks or go to a non military that allows all those that can't or won't meet the standards to remain. ... I hear people saying we will lose all of those F & F seniors.  Do we worry about not recruiting cadets since we don't have an alternate uniform for them?  NO!.  Do we allow F & F cadets?  No!  Are they CAP's future?  Yes!  Its called discipline and desire!  Many of our folks don't have it, and may of our leaders don't desire it.  Its all about quantity, not quality. ... We had more members two or three decades ago when long hair was in and the military was out.  We had one uniform and standards.  Slowly we allowed the smurf suit, than...well we all know.  We were not concerned about losing folks back than and we had a stronger base.   CAP membership is a privilege, not a right.  We need leadership that will give us direction and they have.  Like it or not, we can wear all these combos.  I have seen overweight wing commanders, group and squadron commanders with beards.  How about a 100 pound overweight National Commander with a beard?  That folks is a glass ceiling!

I wonder if sometimes you're more concerned about what the person looks like as opposed to whether the person can do the job well.  We already have what we need to allow those who do the job to participate.  Why do you want to change that?

Jack

[Stonewall]

I wonder if sometimes you're more concerned about what the person looks like as opposed to whether the person can do the job well.  We already have what we need to allow those who do the job to participate.  Why do you want to change that?

We had that too, before the BBDUs.  The only thing the BBDUs offered the fat and fuzzy was a means to wear rank.  And as most seem to argue who are pro-BBDUs rank doesn't matter, you know, since looking military or like the Air Force doesn't seem to matter.

Looks count and that's a fact.

[SARMedTech]

Thought not among the great legal minds of our generation, it would seem to me that there might be an argument to be made for discrimination suits if CAP began to not issue ranks to those who are overweight. Being as it is a non-profit corporation with some of its funding coming from the federal level (via the USAF) I could see where some might make an issue, living as we do in a litigious society. I know folks tire of the USCGAUX comparisons but they seem to do well with "one membership, one uniform." Im friends with a local flotilla commander who weighs in excess of 300 pounds, has been able to get ODUs (from where I do not know, certainly not the UDC at Woodbine, NJ) that fit him and he and his unit are regularly tasked by the USCG on Lake Michigan and westward to the Big Muddy. Lets admit that America is one of the fattest countries on the planet, stop worrying so much about about what the neighbors will think and move forward with one unifying set of uniforms. The USCGAUX has silver buttons and sleeve braid, etc why can we not wear CAP distinctives which would put us in whites and blues and just drop the stinking weight thing already. We're making alot of really good people feel terrible and like they are second class CAP members because they get relegated to golf shirts and mission bases. I would have been happy to wear the BBDUs due to my weight when it was in excess of the allowed limits and still occasionally do when our ES/UDF team decides it wants to look distinctive, eg presenting a uniform appearance when called out at 0300 for an ELT hunt at the local international airport. We recently got a rather good response when we went to meet with the Airport officials, all dressed in BBDUs, boots shined within an inch of their lives (all black Altama Jungles) all insignia and patches (they did get a kick out of the Goofy and it was actually an ice breaker when our PAO explained its origins, etc)  proper, rank (or lack there of) squared away and presenting a very military appearance (with our new U.S. Civil Air Patrol tapes.

Perhaps it is also time to think about military bearing. Its picayuny but good posture, taking off ones cap immediately when coming indoors, using our best sirs and ma'ams (always to anyone we spoke to) direct eye contact and a firm but not bone crushing handshake will let them know we are not some local crop dusting company.

What say you, oh legion of greater experience?

[Hawk200]

"mil·i·tar·y (mĭl'ĭ-tĕr'ē)

adj.

Of, relating to, or characteristic of members of the armed forces: a military bearing; military attire.
Performed or supported by the armed forces: military service.
Of or relating to war: military operations.
Of or relating to land forces.

n., pl. military also -ies.

Armed forces: a country ruled by the military.
Members, especially officers, of an armed force.


u·ni·form (yū'nə-fôrm')

adj.

Always the same, as in character or degree; unvarying.
Conforming to one principle, standard, or rule; consistent.
Being the same as or consonant with another or others.
Unvaried in texture, color, or design.

n.

A distinctive outfit intended to identify those who wear it as members of a specific group.
One set of such an outfit.

I didn't see there where we all have to look like the Air Force, only like eachother.

You forget the most important one:

Main Entry: para·mil·i·tary 
: of, relating to, being, or characteristic of a force formed on a military pattern especially as a potential auxiliary military force <a paramilitary border patrol> <paramilitary training>

That's what is descriptive of CAP. CAP started out under the office of Civilian Defense, and ended up as an auxiliary of the Air Corps. The idea was to permit those who could not perform military service to still provide service to their country. The OCD didn't really have the means to manage an organization like that.

I guess we need to figure out what changed along the way. Changeover to Air Force management couldn't have been the only thing.

[Hawk200]

Thought not among the great legal minds of our generation, it would seem to me that there might be an argument to be made for discrimination suits if CAP began to not issue ranks to those who are overweight.

For one, rank was always given to those who earned it. It was just not permitted for wear on the military uniforms by those that did not meet weight/grooming requirements. Like Stonewall said, it was option to allow rank wear by those who couldn't wear rank on the military utilities.

Second, as is stated, membership is a privilege not a right. Otherwise, their wouldn't be any disqualifiers. Military service is the same way, it is possible to do things or have conditions that won't allow you to serve. That's why there is an FBI check for us.

[SARMedTech]

Thanks Hawk for your thoughtful reply. What I am referring to  however is weight, not criminal background, or lack thereof. I just would like to see us end this decades long war of who is to fat to wear this or that uniform. Im going to go with what majority rules here, but I think all people, regardless of size, should have an equal chance to participate in CAP and in doing so serve their country.

[Stonewall]

Thought not among the great legal minds of our generation, it would seem to me that there might be an argument to be made for discrimination suits if CAP began to not issue ranks to those who are overweight.

For one, rank was always given to those who earned it. It was just not permitted for wear on the military uniforms by those that did not meet weight/grooming requirements. Like Stonewall said, it was option to allow rank wear by those who couldn't wear rank on the military utilities.

He is correct, and perhaps I should have made that clear.  But if you were a Lt Col, you were still a Lt Col, you just couldn't wear the Oak Leaves on the military uniform, e.g. BDUs.  Again, it's the same reason why Senior Members are "Officers" regardless of rank, unless of course, they choose the NCO option like SGT Savage did.  Nothing wrong with it, it's cool.  Just not what everyone does.  So a SM not meeting the weight requirements to wear rank would still be called "colonel", assuming that the person addressing him knows their rank, and cadets would still render the guy a salute.

Trust me, they make some big BDUs.  I've seen some big dudes wearing some BDUs and they were those same capable bodies that so many of us speak of when defending the "fat and fuzzy", but what was even better, they looked like the rest of the Patrol.  The BBDUs, IMHO, are a means to singling out thos "F&F" folks moreso than in any other way.  Granted, BBDUs are an option for any member, but who generally wears them?  The "F&F".  [Who came up with that? It's funny, but I'm sure someone is pizzed off at it.]  So in a sea of camouflage, you've got some islands of blue, who are the blue, in general?  The guys and gals that are restricted from wearing the BDUs.  Not only is it more discirminatory than forbidding someone from wearing military grade, it blatently singles those people out physically.  Remember, we're a society of "Minority rights, but Majority rules".

[ZigZag911]

Looks count and that's a fact.

There are those who consider substance far more important than image....sadly, in our shallow, relativistic society, all too few!

[SARMedTech]

Ill just reply by saying I would like to see ES in BBDUs. Thats just my vote and I thank you for letting me have my one vote.