OK have ORANGE uniforms been seriously proposed for ES?

[SARPilotNY]

There is a reason SWAT and soldiers wear green or dark color BDUs...they don't want to stand out.   When flying at our normal patrol levels (Helo 500 AGL) over the woods or an open field, without a focal point, anyone not wearing contrasting color clothing is difficult at best to be seen.  CAP is the only SAR group that wears camo shirts, poor choice if you want to be seen.
At 1,000 feet in a Cessna at 80 knots, unless our folks are out in the open with mirrors...I hope the sun is out!

[JayT]

Well, I've seen pictures of police SAR teams wearing dark blue/old style fatigue green/bdus/khaki.

But why invest the time and energy in orange uniforms when a five dollar vest can do most of the same. Maybe an orange hat/helmet for field duty.

[Major Carrales]

Well, Well, Well...

An Orange Fligth Suit with plastic encased rank...





And a service CAP and ascot to boot...

[SarDragon]

He's dead, Jim.

[Major Carrales]

He's dead, Jim.

I was watching this episode when I was reading this thread.  It was like kismet!

[Hawk200]

There is a reason SWAT and soldiers wear green or dark color BDUs...they don't want to stand out.   When flying at our normal patrol levels (Helo 500 AGL) over the woods or an open field, without a focal point, anyone not wearing contrasting color clothing is difficult at best to be seen.  CAP is the only SAR group that wears camo shirts, poor choice if you want to be seen.
At 1,000 feet in a Cessna at 80 knots, unless our folks are out in the open with mirrors...I hope the sun is out!

You've got bigger problems if you're spending time looking for your ground teams instead of a downed target.

Besides, I've seen the slides, the photos and the videos showing the difference between those with vests, those without, and numerous other clothing options shown. It is no easier to find a guy in those wearing an orange shirt than it is to find one wearing "only" an orange vest. The false logic fails compared to the facts.

For all you anti-camo types, quit trying to create false facts. If you don't like the cammies, don't wear them. Don't feed people a line (or imply) that they will never be seen from again if they wear camo in the woods. It's garbage.

[SARMedTech]

There is a reason SWAT and soldiers wear green or dark color BDUs...they don't want to stand out.   When flying at our normal patrol levels (Helo 500 AGL) over the woods or an open field, without a focal point, anyone not wearing contrasting color clothing is difficult at best to be seen.  CAP is the only SAR group that wears camo shirts, poor choice if you want to be seen.
At 1,000 feet in a Cessna at 80 knots, unless our folks are out in the open with mirrors...I hope the sun is out!

You've got bigger problems if you're spending time looking for your ground teams instead of a downed target.

Besides, I've seen the slides, the photos and the videos showing the difference between those with vests, those without, and numerous other clothing options shown. It is no easier to find a guy in those wearing an orange shirt than it is to find one wearing "only" an orange vest. The false logic fails compared to the facts.

For all you anti-camo types, quit trying to create false facts. If you don't like the cammies, don't wear them. Don't feed people a line (or imply) that they will never be seen from again if they wear camo in the woods. It's garbage.

I think SARPilotNY is afraid that if ground teams wear camo, they might actually not just blend in, but literally meld with the surrounding foliage. As has been said, if you cant see the safety orange vest from the height you mentioned, you may wish to stop flying cause it would seem your vision is shot. But to reiterate, what are you as the mission pilot doing looking down at the ground for the team. Practically, there is no reason that you even need to see us down there...just worry about the wreckage and in fact, thats kinda what your right seat and scanner are for. Maybe the ground teams in New York could start carrying some orange or green or red smoke cans for ya "I cant see the GT, for the love of God, somebody pop some smoke before we have to abort." Come on. THere are a few folks here, and you know who you are, who just keep on futzing about uniforms to get reactions out of people. I like the idea of ES on BBDUs, not because I hate camo or even dislike it but pilots have distinctive (ie AF or CAP) gear and generally, blue is such a common color for "civilian" ES.  But, my feeling is this: if the GT I am on decides as a whole or is told by the Squadron commander to wear BBDUs, then I will do it. If they are all wearing camos, and now that I have dropped the weight, I'll wear camos. Since there is no significant or proven difference in visibility, for my money, uniformity is more important. I am sort of wondering though why there are alot of folks being worried about procuring woodland BDUs when AF goes all ABU. I tend to not want to order from Vanguard if I can help it because I just think..well you all know. We can all go to BDU.com and snarf up all the mil-spec BDUs we can eat. Heck, they even give the mil-spec number with which there BDUs comply. Propper are also consistantly better quality, easier to deal with and your local uniform shop will probably happily start stocking them for your squadron. Also, BDU.com is cheaper by a fair bit.

[AlphaSigOU]

He's dead, Jim.

You take his tricorder... I'll take his wallet! 

[SARPilotNY]

Remember when flying from a moving platform, 1,000' agl with a normal orbit your target can be a half mile  or more away.  If I am trying to talk a team into a target and they are not in an open field, the orange vest that I am looking at is a very small target.  I am looking through his web gear, from his head down.  Vest were designed so construction workers could be seen by motorist, not aircrews.  Throw in some fall colors and were talking to an even more invisible target.  Good thing my eyes are checked every year but there is no eye test required for my 80 year old scanner.  I am just happy he doesn't have a heart attack in the back of the airplane or doesn't get air sick.  I have had times where each orbit we lose site of the team whereas if they all had orange shirts or jackets they would have been easily seen.  This really comes down to a safety issue.  I am for smoke and mirrors but visability and safety, all orange is the way to go.  Our NPS SAR folks wear orange shirts and are both highly visable from the ground for other teams as well as from the air.  Off goes the khaki, on goes the orange.

[Hawk200]

Vest were designed so construction workers could be seen by motorist, not aircrews.  Throw in some fall colors and were talking to an even more invisible target....

I have had times where each orbit we lose site of the team whereas if they all had orange shirts or jackets they would have been easily seen.  ....This really comes down to a safety issue.  I am for smoke and mirrors but visability and safety, all orange is the way to go.  Our NPS SAR folks wear orange shirts and are both highly visable from the ground for other teams as well as from the air. 

Funny, you can't even make up your mind. You say orange vests get lost in fall colors, but shirts are more visible than vests. The vests are designed for visibility, usually with prismatics or else made of synthetics that will not fade, and in eye burning colors. A shirt will lose that kind of visibility in three or four washes.

And you tell us that camo is impossible to see in the woods from altitude. Five months ago, one of our helicopter crews found a lost soldier in the woods from 750 ft. She was wearing BDU's at the time. Our crew must have supernatural vision or something, because by your reckoning, she never would have been found. Sky condition was scattered, so it wasn't a perfect day either.

Sorry, your facts aren't holding up. And considering that you feel that CAP should be wearing Boy Scout uniforms, your credibility is highly suspect.

[SARMedTech]

Remember when flying from a moving platform, 1,000' agl with a normal orbit your target can be a half mile  or more away.  If I am trying to talk a team into a target and they are not in an open field, the orange vest that I am looking at is a very small target.  I am looking through his web gear, from his head down.  Vest were designed so construction workers could be seen by motorist, not aircrews.  Throw in some fall colors and were talking to an even more invisible target.  Good thing my eyes are checked every year but there is no eye test required for my 80 year old scanner.  I am just happy he doesn't have a heart attack in the back of the airplane or doesn't get air sick.  I have had times where each orbit we lose site of the team whereas if they all had orange shirts or jackets they would have been easily seen.  This really comes down to a safety issue.  I am for smoke and mirrors but visability and safety, all orange is the way to go.  Our NPS SAR folks wear orange shirts and are both highly visable from the ground for other teams as well as from the air.  Off goes the khaki, on goes the orange.

If you are looking at the ground team from your "orbit", all you need to see is that they are there and that if you are guiding them as they are also following the direction of the UDF, you only have to be able to see them, not what color they are. If you are looking down from above and saying that the orange shoulders of the vest are a small target to see, the whole body being orange from where you can see it is not going to be much more. If its really a problem expressed by other pilots, I will suggest that we start carrying orange nylon distress flags that we can hold over our heads so you can see them. Just remember, the pilots are assisting the GT, not the other way around. Also, we lost khaki many uniform generations ago. Besides, the reason that so many bizarre colors, (pink, lemon yellow, purple) have been experimented with over time and also the primary reason for the new surge in "digital camoflauge" is that the theory was long disproven that they eye primarily recognizes, or conversely cannot recognize things (ie you cant see us because we are camo) because of their color. We recognize things or not initially (and the brain makes a judgement, that is a person, or a building or a tree in milliseconds) because of their shape and by the same physiological function, it is the shape of the camo which affects our ability to see, not its color. Watch the WWII films of the random geometric shapes of the camo on planes and battle ships and then see what colors were experimented with. It is now known that camo if so effective, whatever its pattern, because of its ability to confuse the human brain into saying "that shape is not a person, the lines and curves arent right." So it wouldnt matter if we were wearing blaze orange hawaiian shirts, you would have a difficulty seeing us because your brain was expecting to see "servicemen" and not tourists. Simply put, your orange theory doesnt wash. This is why search transmissions (this is an actually one I have heard on a SAR I did in NM) often go like "Ground team leader, I make your team approx 3 clicks N/NE or a road running E to W, how copy my read?" to which the response was "Flier you have my team on spot, where now from our position using hard landmarks?"  By the way, on that SAR we were wearing tan...in the desert.

PS...you should probably let your observer and scanner do most of the looking at the ground lest you smack into it.  Speaking as a soon to be MO, I like my pilots to look at the wild blue yonder so they dont have to send a team looking for us.  Just a thought.

[aveighter]

PS...you should probably let your observer and scanner do most of the looking at the ground lest you smack into it.  Speaking as a soon to be MO, I like my pilots to look at the wild blue yonder so they don't have to send a team looking for us.  Just a thought.

Brilliant!!

I am sending a priority flash message to the FAA immediately!  All flight training standards, flight training, pilot examinations, re-currency checks and all manner of things flying should now be placed under the direction and administration of non-pilot, non- (but soon-to-be) MO types.  Their superior insights into all manner aircraft operations is obvious.  What in the world have we been waiting for?

[SARPilotNY]

I fly, they observe.  Problem is there is no vision requirements for CAP scanners or observers.  Green BDU looks great  against the snow, orange against green, not much against fall colors.  I base my observations on years of just that, observing.  Is a lime yellow fire engine more visable than a red one?  A study to that question said lime yellow is more visable at night.   Guess what, NFPA standards aside, if you can't see all those flashing lights and scotchlite tape, I don't think color makes any difference.
Just as the DOT did studies on colors for traffic cones, road signage and safety vests.  Orange or the new safety yellow will outperform most other colors.  Camo???  No contest!   Tracking a ground team from the air in a fixed wing asset orbiting the team over rolling or mountainous terrain is difficult at best.  Maintaining a safe altitude, safe speed, comfortable turn that will keep the aircrew safe and happy will keep the target well over 1/4 mile from the crews eyes and more likely 1/2 mile.  If safety is our number one concern, (keeping hunters from mistaking us, cars from hitting us and so on) give me on reason why BDUs are a better choice.

[SARPilotNY]

us that camo is impossible to see in the woods from altitude. Five months ago, one of our helicopter crews found a lost soldier in the woods from 750 ft. She was wearing BDU's at the time. Our crew must have supernatural vision or something, because by your reckoning, she never would have been found. Sky condition was scattered, so it wasn't a perfect day either.

I bet the smoke, radios, mirrors and waiving arms helped too!

[SARPilotNY]

Remember when flying from a moving platform, 1,000' agl with a normal orbit your target can be a half mile  or more away.  If I am trying to talk a team into a target and they are not in an open field, the orange vest that I am looking at is a very small target.  I am looking through his web gear, from his head down.  Vest were designed so construction workers could be seen by motorist, not aircrews.  Throw in some fall colors and were talking to an even more invisible target.  Good thing my eyes are checked every year but there is no eye test required for my 80 year old scanner.  I am just happy he doesn't have a heart attack in the back of the airplane or doesn't get air sick.  I have had times where each orbit we lose site of the team whereas if they all had orange shirts or jackets they would have been easily seen.  This really comes down to a safety issue.  I am for smoke and mirrors but visability and safety, all orange is the way to go.  Our NPS SAR folks wear orange shirts and are both highly visable from the ground for other teams as well as from the air.  Off goes the khaki, on goes the orange.

If you are looking at the ground team from your "orbit", all you need to see is that they are there and that if you are guiding them as they are also following the direction of the UDF, you only have to be able to see them, not what color they are. If you are looking down from above and saying that the orange shoulders of the vest are a small target to see, the whole body being orange from where you can see it is not going to be much more. If its really a problem expressed by other pilots, I will suggest that we start carrying orange nylon distress flags that we can hold over our heads so you can see them. Just remember, the pilots are assisting the GT, not the other way around. Also, we lost khaki many uniform generations ago. Besides, the reason that so many bizarre colors, (pink, lemon yellow, purple) have been experimented with over time and also the primary reason for the new surge in "digital camoflauge" is that the theory was long disproven that they eye primarily recognizes, or conversely cannot recognize things (ie you cant see us because we are camo) because of their color. We recognize things or not initially (and the brain makes a judgement, that is a person, or a building or a tree in milliseconds) because of their shape and by the same physiological function, it is the shape of the camo which affects our ability to see, not its color. Watch the WWII films of the random geometric shapes of the camo on planes and battle ships and then see what colors were experimented with. It is now known that camo if so effective, whatever its pattern, because of its ability to confuse the human brain into saying "that shape is not a person, the lines and curves arent right." So it wouldnt matter if we were wearing blaze orange hawaiian shirts, you would have a difficulty seeing us because your brain was expecting to see "servicemen" and not tourists. Simply put, your orange theory doesnt wash. This is why search transmissions (this is an actually one I have heard on a SAR I did in NM) often go like "Ground team leader, I make your team approx 3 clicks N/NE or a road running E to W, how copy my read?" to which the response was "Flier you have my team on spot, where now from our position using hard landmarks?"  By the way, on that SAR we were wearing tan...in the desert.

PS...you should probably let your observer and scanner do most of the looking at the ground lest you smack into it.  Speaking as a soon to be MO, I like my pilots to look at the wild blue yonder so they dont have to send a team looking for us.  Just a thought.

I wonder why the FAA requires communications towers, water tanks and other structures orange (red) and white checkerboards if it would trick the mind?  Regardless, it does not make the towers invisible...maybe only to the guy that runs into it.

[Hawk200]

us that camo is impossible to see in the woods from altitude. Five months ago, one of our helicopter crews found a lost soldier in the woods from 750 ft. She was wearing BDU's at the time. Our crew must have supernatural vision or something, because by your reckoning, she never would have been found. Sky condition was scattered, so it wasn't a perfect day either.

I bet the smoke, radios, mirrors and waiving arms helped too!

No smoke, no radios, no mirrors, but probably waving arms.  According to you, she shouldn't have been found at all. After all, camo makes a person completely disappear, right?

If you don't like camo, man up and admit it. Don't try to create statistics.

[SARPilotNY]

great job by the crew, I don't think a CAP crew in a 80 knot aircraft would have the same results.  Yes, no secret here, I think wearing camo BDUs for SAR folks is a bad idea.  There are reasons why the DOT has standards for ambulances (KKK) and NFPA has standards for fire apparatus visability...to be seen.  There is a reason for camo...not to be seen.  Our folks in the air have a hard enough time as it is seeing our folks on the ground.  I wonder how many time somebody flew over the lost soldier before she was seen?  I bet she wished she was wearing orange.  BTW, how many SAR hours in grid do you have as a scanner or observer?

[RogueLeader]

great job by the crew, I don't think a CAP crew in a 80 knot aircraft would have the same results.  Yes, no secret here, I think wearing camo BDUs for SAR folks is a bad idea.  There are reasons why the DOT has standards for ambulances (KKK) and NFPA has standards for fire apparatus visability...to be seen.  There is a reason for camo...not to be seen.  Our folks in the air have a hard enough time as it is seeing our folks on the ground.  I wonder how many time somebody flew over the lost soldier before she was seen?  I bet she wished she was wearing orange.  BTW, how many SAR hours in grid do you have as a scanner or observer?

Called orange vest, and orange hat.

[SARPilotNY]

At one time...it was not cool to:
Police:  wear body armour
Fire:  wear breathing apparatus
EMS:  wear gloves
CAP Ground Teams:  wear orange uniforms

The first 3 groups learned over the years why change was necessary and than later required...bulllit wounds, lung cancer, HIV and funerals.  Over the years, I have have attended dozens of funerals for friends that have died in the line of duty.  Some of them could have been prevented but we just wanted to look cool.  Why anyone in CAP ES would think looking "cool" vs "safety" is beyond me.  We have had aircrews fly over the same grids where they could not find an intact aircraft out in the open, why would we want to make their jobs any harder  for them so ground teams can just look cool?  I remember hearing of a CAP member being struck and killed on the freeway directing traffic, I am sure the car that hit him never really saw him.  But I bet he thought he looked cool.
The whole point of the color orange is visability that equates to safety.
When I started in the business, Scotchlight was too costly, only Geeks wore vests (both body armour and reflective).  Now vests are the norm and almost always required, Scotchlight on safety equipment is sewn by the yard and OMG, the lightbars and corner strobes...how can they miss us...but they still do.
If we could prevent the loss of I life of a CAP member...is it not worth it?

[SARMedTech]

At one time...it was not cool to:
Police:  wear body armour
Fire:  wear breathing apparatus
EMS:  wear gloves
CAP Ground Teams:  wear orange uniforms

The first 3 groups learned over the years why change was necessary and than later required...bulllit wounds, lung cancer, HIV and funerals.  Over the years, I have have attended dozens of funerals for friends that have died in the line of duty.  Some of them could have been prevented but we just wanted to look cool.  Why anyone in CAP ES would think looking "cool" vs "safety" is beyond me.  We have had aircrews fly over the same grids where they could not find an intact aircraft out in the open, why would we want to make their jobs any harder  for them so ground teams can just look cool?  I remember hearing of a CAP member being struck and killed on the freeway directing traffic, I am sure the car that hit him never really saw him.  But I bet he thought he looked cool.
The whole point of the color orange is visability that equates to safety.
When I started in the business, Scotchlight was too costly, only Geeks wore vests (both body armour and reflective).  Now vests are the norm and almost always required, Scotchlight on safety equipment is sewn by the yard and OMG, the lightbars and corner strobes...how can they miss us...but they still do.
If we could prevent the loss of I life of a CAP member...is it not worth it?

The reason that you are meeting so much resistance is that you are all over the radar. First the vests are for the pilots, now you are worried about the GTs. It has nothing to do with looking cool. If I wanted to look cool, I would wear actual SAR gear rather than surplus bent to work for SAR. We are doing what we are supposed to be doing and wearing what is mandated. You are barking at the wrong dog. If you think it is vital for ground team to wear orange jumpsuits, then talk to NHQ about it, not us. I think CAP members have shown a willingness, often more than they should have to, to wear what we are ordered to wear even when there is no point to it. with your altitude and angle the only way the jump suit would be superior to the vests is if we laid down flat in formation. It would be better for us to wear a head lamp or something, but I say now, you get the regs changed and I will wear a bright orange jump suit or a pink tutu if you thats what NHQ says. Theyre not going to because there is no point to it and youre going to be largely alone in your pleas to NHQ because GTs arent going to back you up on it and I havent heard a flock of pilots besides you talking about having a problem seeing us.